The short answer is: "It's maaagic." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

Personally, I don't think Guard should defend against botches, but that's not a RAW discussion. The issue (I think) some of us are having is if a spirit can target a person's icon in the Matrix with various powers, such as accident. Personally, I wouldn't let that fly. In the same vein, I've found that Task spirits with Endowment can really break the game if they grant technical skills, so defining some limit to prevent spirit abilities from overpowering deckers would be nice.

See, A Sprit doesn't target an Icon, it targets the Hacker itself. The icon is an extension of the Hacker, and is irrelevant in a discussion about Glitches. The ICON is not making the Glitch, the HACKER is. *shrug*

Hence why I referenced Knowledge skills. Knowing something doesn't even require musclework, you either know it or you don't (and I don't see how Accident or Guard could conceivably alter that). Yet everyone pretty much agrees that those two abilities do function in that space.

It does matter, since in SR4.5 decking from Mom's Basement is actually more encouraged. As long as the meat body is safe, the decker is pretty much immune to Accident. This means there's even more incentive for the decker to phone in his work.

I disagree. I have hacked more stuff onsite in SR4, then I ever did, in all previous editions combined.
As for a Remote hacker being safe from the Accident power, he is also safe form all the other dangers the onsite team face. *shrug*

Pray tell, what made it "more advantageous" to hack on-site instead of remotely?

And, if anything, how is hacking on-site more advantageous is 4 than in 3?

An extra person to help in combat, as well as the opportunity to see where locks and cameras are located, rather than rely on teammates to report or having to use on their image link data, since they might skip over an important detail.

This is perhaps also a thing in 3, but you don't need to jack in to hack in 4, so you can do things immediately.

Instead of...say...hacking the camera system remotely and looking at what the cameras can see?

Or...feedback-looping them so it is irrelevant?

You were going to hack them anyway, right?

The short answer is: Offline storage.

Offline storage was par for the course in SR3, making it so the decker had to physically penetrate the site to get paydata. It doesn't seem to exist in SR4.5, or if it does, there's not much rules for it. Even with wifi-inhibiting paint, you still need the decker to attack the security system for you, which can be done from basement. Since those systems need to communicate with each other, once you get in you can ignore the wifi-inhibiting areas and remote hack everything in the facility. At worst, all you need is someone setting a commlink next to the computer with the paydata, and you can hack it that way.

What's more, there's no incentive to go in. With the old node layout maps, frequently if you started your run from inside the system, you could start somewhere with less security. In SR4.5, it's all just one great big node, so starting your run from anywhere will encounter the same security. You may as well deck in from the comfort of your mother's basement, since you'll face the same challenges no matter what.

I agree Cain... yet when I mentioned the old matrix maps.. and internal access points.. all I got was a vocal minority decrying the old matrix maps as something 'nobody liked'.

And to me it makes a lot more sense... in my apartment i have a very high end router/firewall/security device. If someone were to try and attack me... they'd have to go through that first to get at any nodes behind it with their softer firewalls. Or they could physically break in and just plug directly into it. Or they could see that I'm running wireless and go for that... and be royally screwed because I intentionally run the wireless on a separate network segment so wireless can't access my wired (though they probably won't realize it).

If I was a corp, i could do something similar... run a wireless network with dummy paydata in it. A honeypot just to catch lazy hackers... too dumb to realize that the real data is somewhere else.


In any case, that's something I'm hoping to see back in the new system... wired access is essentially unlimited bandwidth.... while wireless has severe signal/speed constraints in comparison. Which get reduced even more as jamming comes into play. That's the kind of thing which is easy to make uncomplicated rules for.

I feel that the current Matrix structure is just too nebulous. There's not enough of a sense of cyberspace, so to speak. It all feels so abstract and consequently doesn't feel impactful. Matrix maps might help hacking feel more... tangible.

~Umi

The fact that we could not hack remotely. It is not hard to accomplish, you know.
And the fact that we did not have any one else savvy enough to assist in obtaining remote capabilities.
Cold Storage.
Multiple Isolated systems in tandem.
Etc.

It isn't all just one great big node, and assuming it is is why you see hacking as not all that big of a deal, and easily done remotely. I have YET to hack a "One Big Node" system in SR4A. Layered systems DO exist, and they are described in Unwired.

Which is pretty much what I have encountered in the Matrix at our table, Falconer, which is probably why I am so vocal about the intricacies of the Matrix. Multi-Segmented and Multi-layered systems are the norm at our table, for all GM's involved. When I run into a "Simple Node Architecture" it is generally a public node that is inconsequential to my goals as a Shadowrunner. *shrug*

But that is not a design issue with the Rules, in my opinion, but a fluff issue with the tables you (generic) game at, from my experience. I have played at tables where the sense of cyberspace was not there (even in previous editions, dependent upon GM), but my regular GM's and table feels no different than what I felt with earlier editions (Since our primary GM ran previous editions for us), architecturally. We see the vastness of the Matrix at our table, and I do not expect that to change.

Note: Cyberspace IS abstract and nebulous by design, in all editions. It is a function of the differetn and varying design principles employed by every connection to the Matrix. Cyberspace can literally be anything and everything, and all at once. *shrug*

1) And these mechanics didn't exist in SR3?
2) And the pervasive wireless in SR4 doesn't make it easier to hack remotely? (Signal 0 is still wireless, and almost nothing is Signal —, and wifi-inhibiting paint is trivial to defeat as detailed up-thread)
3) Begging the question

#3 explained:

"I have hacked on site more than in previous systems because I could not hack remotely" is a statement which is tautologically true and offers no explanation as to why it is true because it refers back to its own premise to enforce its "true-ness." A similar example is "The sky is blue because it is not green."

1. Sure they did... And yet, I managed to hack remotely more often in SR3 than in SR4. This cannot be argued here as it is an undisputed fact. *shrug*
2. For general hacking, sure... For hacking of targets worthy of a Hacker Shadowrunner, no, as the same precautions in SR3 work just as well in SR4A. *shrug*
3. Not really.

Again, you cannot dispute my statement, as is is factually true. You may, of course, dispute it FOR YOUR EXPERIENCE only. Since I have the same GM for SR4A as I had for SR3, my Hacking access has not changed. Wireless may be more prevelent in SR4A, but access to isolated systems has not really changed that much. It may be that I play a Hacker more often in SR4A, becasue it is more accessible (as a system), so I see more hacks being non-remote than in SR3. *shrug*

You may have hacked remotely less in SR4 than in other versions, but I asked what is it about the game system that made that true and your answer so far is....

....personal preference.

Because of the reasons you have offered, none of them made it mechanically more difficult to hack from home.

I have answered you multiple times, you just refuse to see it.
Isolated Systems are the big one. Cold storage is a close second. You can isolate a system in SR4A just as effectively as in SR2/3. It isn't hard to do. Your only answer to that is "well, wireless." *shrug*

Soooo....

There's not a mechanical difference. If it's "just as effective" as in SR2/3, then there is NO CHANGE.

There is a mechanical change. You complain about it all the time. The system for hacking is easier than in previous editions. Becaue it is easier, I play more Hacker/Decker types. As a result, since I play more characters that hack, I tend to make MORE NON-REMOTE Hacks than in previous editions. What part of that do you not understand?

Regardless of the System, Isolation is JUST AS EFFECTIVE. Get it?

Bwuh? How is it an easier system? Mechanically it's similar in terms of the list of useful actions, but then there are a dozen or more extra special rules cases -- finding hidden nodes, rollfest probing the target, crashing a program, crashing the system, multiple tiers of access forcing the GM to assign standard account powers on multiple levels (and seriously, why?), spoofing commcodes in ill-defined ways to bypass doors/drones(??)... it's a huge bloody mess of haphazard rules.

Which was?

Or rather, to recap the conversation:




What was the mechanical change?

I disagree with you... We run hacking in tandem with normal actions. Something that COULD NOT BE DONE in previous editions. *shrug*
Yes, it helps when the Player and the GM understand the system. We do not have any issues on this.