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Umidori
post Feb 1 2013, 05:29 PM
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Okay, so Changelings have access to certain Metagenetic Qualities that impose the "Freaks" penalty, a -3 dice pool modifier on most Social Skill Tests not performed over the Matrix, but a +2 dice pool modifier to Intimidation Tests.

The idea is that certain bizarre physical features are just so outlandish as to weird out ordinary people. Which makes sense! It's fine as a concept. But where it gets weird is in the execution. Let's look at the various qualities that inflict the Freaks modifier and compare their costs and benefits.

Positive Metagenetic Freaks Qualities

360-Degree Eyesight - For 10 BP you get the biological equivalent of the Eyeband cyberware implant, except you can't turn it off. You can see in a full 360 degrees, but this provides zero benefit in terms of game mechanics, as well as an additional -1 to any actions taken while in motion. Oh, and unlike the cyberware, you suffer the negative social modifiers of being a freak.

~Why is this is Positive quality?~

Beak - For 5 BP you get a Lifestyle cost reduction of 10% and a +1 to resist ingested toxins, but you can't chew your food and have to swallow it whole. For 10 BP, you get a Raptor Beak and can also inflict Physical damage instead of Stun via the Unarmed Skill. But of course, you're a freak.

~This one is a little better, but isn't great. I could see someone possibly taking this if they really wanted toxin immunity, cheaper lifestyle costs, and the Intimidation bonus from being a Freak, but the Raptor Beak's pitiful contribution does NOT merit an additonal 5 BP of cost - it should just be part of the basic variety at the basic cost.~

Larger Tusks - For 10 BP you get the Raptor Beak's ability to deal Physical damage instead of Stun via the Unarmed Skill, plus a bonus +1 DV, but without the Lifestyle cost reduction or the ingested toxin resistance. And you're a freak.

~And now we're back into WTF territory. The cost is absurd for the pitiful benefit it provides.~

Proboscis - For 10 BP, you can pick up and use objects with your elephant trunk. You can even perform fine manipulations like pulling a trigger, albeit at a -2 modifier. You can also use it to make a "blunt punch" as an Exotic Melee Weapon. Except... apparantly you can't? It informs use mere sentences later that "Trunks do not provide an extra attack." Uh. Okay?

~So yeah, if the whole matter of how the heck you're supposed to use this in combat was cleared up, I could see this being worth 10 BP to the right character or in the right circumstance. But the real problem I have with it is that all of the lore and fluff regarding Changelings purposefully and specifically states that the so called "Ganesha" changelings who resemble the Indian elephant god are actually not mistreated, in part because of the religious reverence they attract in their native India, but also because "The few ganeshas and cat people got the luck of the draw - they’re cutsey and can play off people’s preconceptions." Yet to actually build a Ganesha you need to possess not one, but TWO different Freaks qualities! Thankfully the modifiers don't stack, but still...~

-------

Negative Metagenetic Freaks Qualities

Cephalapoidal Skull - For -10 BP, you're a Davy Jones / Cthulu tentacle thing. You suffer -3 dice to resist damage to the head and upper torso, and you suffer the Freaks modifier.

~This one is actually pretty balanced. If you're into tentacles, anyway.~

Deformity - At the -5 BP value, you get a severe facial deformity, while a -25 BP value gives you severe physical deformity. Each of these can inflict their own negative modifiers, "Depending upon whether the deformation affects sensory or motor functions", whatever that means. For the facial deformity, a flat -2 to Perception, because apparantly having a messed up face not only impacts vision, but also hearing, taste, touch, and smell somehow. For the physical deformity, you suffer a -1 to Physical Active Tests. In either case, you suffer the Freaks modifier but at double value.

~This is another absurd one. The wishy-washiness about whether a deformity affects sensory or motor functions or not is just sloppy. Is it saying that you have to hash it out with your GM as to whether you suffer the penalties or not? Because that's just a headache waiting to happen. Either have deformities impose penalties, or have them not, none of this sitting on the fence crap.

Putting that aside, the facial deformity is grossly underpriced. A blanket -2 to perception coupled with a -6 to social tests for a measly 5 BP and +4 to Intimidation is just baffling, especially compared to the numerous -5 BP negative metagenetic qualities that impose almost NO mechanical modifiers, (Extravagent Eyes, Feathers, Scales, Striking Skin Pigmentation, Unusual Hair, Vestigial Tail), or which impose MUCH LESS severe penalties (Bioluminescence, Critter Spook, Mood Hair, Stubby Arms). Double or triple the value to -10 or -15 BP, and make the Freaks modifier only apply once (in all other cases it never stacks), and this MIGHT be worth considering.~


Insectoid Features - For -5 BP, you're a bug thing. You inflict a Critter Spook effect on people, and are a freak.

~Here's another decently priced one. The only concern I have with it is that it suggests that you may be mistaken for a Bug Spirit Flesh Form, so you need to be sure your GM isn't a dick who is going to screw you over just because of that.~

Neoteny - For -10 BP, you have the body of a child, reducing your physical Condition Monitor by 2 points and making people think you're a child. It says that you "may" suffer the Freaks modifier, presumably meaning it's up to the GM.

~Mixed thoughts on this one. A reduced physical condition track is harsh, but probably worth the 10 BP. It's the social modifiers I have problems with. Neoteny technically imposes the Freaks negative social modifier, but that would only ever make sense in cases where it was known that you weren't actually a child, and even then that's a bit of a stretch. In real life, Neotenous people do run into the problem of being treated like children, but the negative effects this produces are hardly comparable to something like having a gorram elephant trunk instead of a nose.~

Third Eye - For -5 BP, you have a third eye. It acts exactly like your other eyes, and as long as any 2 of your 3 eyes are open, you still have depth perception. It also inflicts the Freaks modifier, but only if someone notices it, which takes a Perception Test [2].

~This one is fine. Cheap price, minor effect. Wear a hat or headband to cover it up most of the time, but suffer a detriment if you end up revealing it for some reason.~

-------

Annnnd that's it! Weirdly.

It's kind of nonsensical which qualities impose the Freaks modifier and which do not, though.

I mean, with Feathers you can be covered in fluffy duckling down from head to toe and no one will bat an eye? Speaking of eyes, no one thinks it's weird to be a Cyclops with "a single huge eye directly above the nose"? You can be a furry monkey-man with Unusual Hair, Monkey Paws, and a Prehensile Tail and your Social skill tests are completely unaffected? You can have Striking Skin Pigmentation, Stubby Arms, and Thorns all at once and that's just dandy? A dude can walk into a bar with Clawed hands, Rhino Hide, Bone Spikes, Goring Horns, Gills, Shiva Arms, Satyr Legs, a nictitating membrane for Underwater Vision, and Webbed Hands and Feet, and he'll have an easier time making Social Tests than some putz with a third eye on his forehead?

Seriously?

~Umi
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StealthSigma
post Feb 1 2013, 05:47 PM
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QUOTE (Umidori @ Feb 1 2013, 01:29 PM) *
Proboscis - For 10 BP, you can pick up and use objects with your elephant trunk. You can even perform fine manipulations like pulling a trigger, albeit at a -2 modifier. You can also use it to make a "blunt punch" as an Exotic Melee Weapon. Except... apparantly you can't? It informs use mere sentences later that "Trunks do not provide an extra attack." Uh. Okay?

~So yeah, if the whole matter of how the heck you're supposed to use this in combat was cleared up, I could see this being worth 10 BP to the right character or in the right circumstance. But the real problem I have with it is that all of the lore and fluff regarding Changelings purposefully and specifically states that the so called "Ganesha" changelings who resemble the Indian elephant god are actually not mistreated, in part because of the religious reverence they attract in their native India, but also because "The few ganeshas and cat people got the luck of the draw - they’re cutsey and can play off people’s preconceptions." Yet to actually build a Ganesha you need to possess not one, but TWO different Freaks qualities! Thankfully the modifiers don't stack, but still...~


You can attack with the knife in your hand or with your trunk but you may not make an attack with both your knife and trunk.
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Umidori
post Feb 1 2013, 05:54 PM
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Why the hell not?

If you can attack with both a Cyber-Spur implanted in your ankle and a gorram Oral Slasher at the same time, why can't you do the same with a trunk and a knife?

~Umi
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Lionhearted
post Feb 1 2013, 05:55 PM
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It might just be me being lazy but I found the number of options given for SURGE kinda lacking, they want you to build thematic freaks but they only seem to have like four or five coherent themes possible.
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Umidori
post Feb 1 2013, 06:00 PM
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Indeed, I feel exactly the same way. Particularly the Negative qualities are very limited.

As a matter of fact, I'm even writing up my own "Snout" quality, inspired by my recent work in building a T'skrang. I'll share it once it's done.

~Umi
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Stahlseele
post Feb 1 2013, 06:10 PM
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erm, wait, did not every last single one of the metagenetic qualities, both visible and invisible, render one a freak?
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Lionhearted
post Feb 1 2013, 06:14 PM
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That would make glamour kinda pointless (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Stahlseele
post Feb 1 2013, 06:35 PM
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yeah, so?
doesn't mean it's not true, does it?
i remember having read something to that extent somewhere . .
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Umidori
post Feb 1 2013, 06:49 PM
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Only the qualities I listed above are marked as imposing the Freaks modifier.

~Umi
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Tanegar
post Feb 1 2013, 06:54 PM
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QUOTE (Umidori @ Feb 1 2013, 12:29 PM) *
Insectoid Features - For -5 BP, you're a bug thing. You inflict a Critter Spook effect on people, and are a freak.

~Here's another decently priced one. The only concern I have with it is that it suggests that you may be mistaken for a Bug Spirit Flesh Form, so you need to be sure your GM isn't a dick who is going to screw you over just because of that.~

I don't think that having a character with Insectoid Features be mistaken for a bug spirit qualifies as "being a dick" or "screwing the player over." The bugs are one of the big, existential threats in Shadowrun; Ares nuked a major American city to contain an outbreak, and twenty years later Chicago still isn't back to normal. John Q. Public might not necessarily have a reaction beyond, "Ew, gross," but anyone with even one rank in Magical Threats or similar Knowledge Skill is going to be seriously perturbed by the character and probably report a suspected insect hive to somebody.

Bottom line: if you don't want to suffer the consequences of looking like something that wants to eat the entire ecosphere for lunch, don't take the Quality.
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Umidori
post Feb 1 2013, 07:05 PM
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Okay, then it's a quality no one will ever take, because 5 BP is not worth being treated worse than Special Infected. Congratulations, it's a waste of printing space.

~Umi
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Feb 1 2013, 07:16 PM
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QUOTE (Umidori @ Feb 1 2013, 12:05 PM) *
Okay, then it's a quality no one will ever take, because 5 BP is not worth being treated worse than Special Infected. Congratulations, it's a waste of printing space.

~Umi


Took it for my Spider themed character. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Lionhearted
post Feb 1 2013, 07:31 PM
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What kind of features was that TJ? given that arachnids doesn't really have that many distinctly insect features, no multi-facet eyes, fangs rather then mandibles so on and so forth
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Umidori
post Feb 1 2013, 07:34 PM
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Yeah... spiders aren't insects.

That and the fact that Insect Spirits aren't spiders.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

~Umi
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Lionhearted
post Feb 1 2013, 07:38 PM
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There is a spider spirit however, she eats invae (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
a spider character would be kinda cool though, good excuse for shiva arms
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X-Kalibur
post Feb 1 2013, 07:39 PM
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Subphylum Chelicerata vs Subphylum Hexapoda

Sometimes arachnophobia comes in handy.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Feb 1 2013, 08:00 PM
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QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Feb 1 2013, 12:31 PM) *
What kind of features was that TJ? given that arachnids doesn't really have that many distinctly insect features, no multi-facet eyes, fangs rather then mandibles so on and so forth


He has the face of a Spider; so Multiple eyes, chelicerae with fangs, and so on and so forth. The Quality seemed like the easiest route for that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Spiders may not BE insects, but they creep people out just the same, and the character makes it a habit to hide his features best he can.
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X-Kalibur
post Feb 1 2013, 08:03 PM
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That a can of WD40 you got there?

Nope, it's a can of bug spray.

Bug spray? Why? What's that for?

When that guy acts up. -.-
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Umidori
post Feb 1 2013, 08:13 PM
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I still maintain that since Spider Spirits are not the same as Insect Spirits, people wouldn't react to them in the same way.

Just because spiders are "scary" doesn't mean they're on the same level as the fear inspired by the known malevolence of Inspect Spirits. I wouldn't treat Spider features any differently than I would treat Scorpion features, or Shrimp features, or Crab features, or Lobster features, or any other arthropods.

Say, maybe that's an idea. Change Insectoid Features to Arthropoid Features, and make it a two level quality. At the 5 BP level, you look like one of the non-insect arthropods and suffer the Freaks modifier and the Critter Spook effect. At the 10 BP level, you resemble insect spirit flesh forms, inspiring people to attack you, perhaps if they fail a composure check.

~Umi
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Lionhearted
post Feb 1 2013, 08:19 PM
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A lot of people associate spiders with insects and as most have no experience of a "benevolent" spider spirit they will most likely just assume it's another bug they haven't seen before. they're also likely to adopt a "better safe then sorry" attitude.
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_Pax._
post Feb 1 2013, 08:39 PM
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QUOTE (Umidori @ Feb 1 2013, 12:29 PM) *
Positive Metagenetic Freaks Qualities

360-Degree Eyesight - For 10 BP you get the biological equivalent of the Eyeband cyberware implant, except you can't turn it off. You can see in a full 360 degrees, but this provides zero benefit in terms of game mechanics, as well as an additional -1 to any actions taken while in motion. Oh, and unlike the cyberware, you suffer the negative social modifiers of being a freak.

~Why is this is Positive quality?~

360-degree vision. Nothign can "sneak up behind you". Thoguh I tend to agree, it should be a 5-pointer, nto a 10-pointer.


Otherwise, generally, I agree with your overall assessment.

Each feature should have been assigned a "freak index", with the total from both positives and negatives producing the "Gene Freak" penalty. Neoteny, for example, would have a 0 IMO; okay so you look like a kid, or a tweenager at best. You're still not bright purple, scaley, with a tail and a glowing beak ...!!
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_Pax._
post Feb 1 2013, 08:41 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Feb 1 2013, 03:00 PM) *
He has the face of a Spider; so Multiple eyes, chelicerae with fangs, and so on and so forth. The Quality seemed like the easiest route for that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Spiders may not BE insects, but they creep people out just the same, and the character makes it a habit to hide his features best he can.


HOLO HOOD clothing feature, here we come!!
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Feb 1 2013, 08:48 PM
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QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Feb 1 2013, 01:41 PM) *
HOLO HOOD clothing feature, here we come!!


He embraced the look, though it does not help (or, maybe it does) that he has 8 limbs... He just does not socialize much. He never gets invited to the big parties. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)
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Lionhearted
post Feb 1 2013, 08:54 PM
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Oh you've just been hanging with the wrong people, that whole spider thing you got going? The extreme clubbing scene will just Lo-ve it!
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Umidori
post Feb 1 2013, 09:02 PM
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Just finished a preliminary write-up of my proposed "Snout" metagenetic quality.

QUOTE
Functional Snout
Cost: 5 to 10 BP

The character's lower skull and jaw are elongated into an animal-like snout or muzzle; this may be scaly (like a reptile), hairy (like most mammals), or even hairless (like a dolphin or other unusual mammals).

Snouts require customization of certain gear (like face masks or full face helmets). Snouts inflict modifiers on social interaction (see Freaks sidebar, p. 110 RC).

A Predator Snout (10 BP) is a pair of large and powerfully muscled jaws, like those of a predator. As with Fangs (p. 113 RC), a character can attack with this snout using her normal Unarmed Combat skill, but without the Fangs’ Reach penalty. A Predator Snout has a Damage Value of (STR/2+1)P. A Predator Snout is incompatible with mouth implants and modifications.

~Essentially a clone of Larger Tusks, but without the allowance for a Proboscis. Intended to make a much wider range of predatory animal features available, including canines, felines, ursines, reptiles , and even delphinidines. Pretty much anything with big jaws and sharp teeth that are used for hunting fits here.~

A Rooting Snout (5 BP) is a short, soft, and sensitive snout, like that of a pig or tapir. The snout is flexible, able to be consciously manipulated (although it cannot grasp objects), and is highly sensitive to olfactory input. The character is treated as if they had a Vomeronasal Organ (p. 116 RC). A Rooting Snout is incompatible with mouth implants and modifications (except for Larger Tusks, p. 114 RC).

~Cheaper than a normal Vomeronasal Organ, but with the downside of making you visibly uglier, slightly more than counteracting the VO's bonus Social dice and negatively affecting your Social tests. Perfect for pigmen.~

An Herbivore Snout (5 BP) is a long, flat-toothed muzzle, like that of most herbivores. The size and shape of the snout can vary significantly. As their digestive system is unsuited to consuming meat, characters with Herbivore Snouts tend toward being vegetarians, as well as ruminating on their cud. This quality expands the range of substances the character can process, and so her Lifestyle costs are reduced by 10 percent and she receives a +1 dice pool modifier on tests to resist ingested toxins (see Toxic Substances, p. 245, SR4). A Herbivore Snout is incompatible with mouth implants and modifications.

~Essentially a clone of Beak. Same price, same mechanical effects, but enhanced animal options. Tons of animals, all the ungulates and ruminants, everything from horses and cows, to goats and sheep, to deer and buffalo, to giraffes and kangaroos, to llamas and camels, to rhinoceri and hippopotomi.~

Feel free to suggest improvements.

~Umi
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