Oh hey, just noticed something. The Wendigo innate power listing in RC says you get Vision Magnification [1]. But Vision Magnification doesn't have ratings. Do you think they meant Vision Enhancement [1]?

~Umi

I... I don't know. SR4A says they have Enhanced Senses (Visual Acuity). That doesn't help.

Because metatypes are para-critters... their expression requires magic. It's a fundamental limitation of the spell in the spell description Neraph... it's not that hard. Unless you intentionally misread & twist rules like you always do. The spell description specifically forbids paracritters.

An orc is not a basic human... a basic human is a critter that the critterform or shapechange spell can mimic. An orc is not, it's that simple.


Halinn: the current FAQ is NOT errata... there was some errata in the works when it was written which did NOT make into the game though. In other parts adept powers it just gets some parts outright wrong. The core rulebook itself states to use max magic for some things like adept powers... other things like max force can be read either way. I'm not going to argue it here... but it can be read either way and the FAQ does clarify that with yet another repitition of the companies official position that max force is subject to the partial magic split... but the RAW can be read either way and a lot of people do.

You really want to start that argument again? Go thread-o-mancy some other thread where I explicitly prove you wrong - I'm too tired of repeating myself to you.

For fitting in, you sure did pick a hard one. That said, if your group is OK with it you should be fine. I say SHOULD because unless you tend to violate the "dont shit where you eat" policy, the GM is going to resort to serious contrivances to pull the "You've been found-out!" card on your lifestyle. Essence draining requirement lends itself really well to the street style games especially, since part and parcel of your combat experience will be gangers on whom feeding will only provide a feeling of vindication, rather than the typical "ZOMG YOU ARE EATING SOULS" that everyone here seems to think should be every shadowrunner's reaction to seeing one of the infected.

Make heavy use of Alleviate Allergy and a F2 sustaining focus if youre working in the daytime.

Over time, unless youre really abusing that essence drain and attribute boost, youre going to feel really behind a starting metahuman shadowrunner. Accept it and specialize in the use of your critter powers and magical abilities, or get used to feeding A LOT which takes time.

I've personally been kicking around the idea of a Wendigo character too, but taking a long look at it, I ended up going with a Night One instead. (( Not that they're analogs or anything)).

The wendigo look fun but some of the stuff about them really makes you wonder. I like the look and I don't mind the infected part, it's that cannibalistic urge and the "Overly ritualistic" nature of the cannibalism that stumped me.

"I was a normal Orc and I got sick, grew fur and fangs and I have to eat metahuman corpses to survive" is a bit different from "I dance around naked with other infected and perform rites on people we slaughter to eat then bathe in their blood".

One is a REALLY sucky thing, but you can... work around it (( with them being omnivores and the rather low amount of corpsemeat you gotta eat.. hard but not impossible)) The other... You're sneaking off to meet with other cannibalistic giant furry orcs to have people eatin' rituals.

The thing is, actual Wendigo mythology is pretty heavily steeped in the ritual stuff. They're pretty much the physical embodiment of all-consuming hunger and the tabboo of eatting one's own species.

They represent the idea of cannibalism itself - appearing in times of famine to those who are isolated in remote wilderness, symbolically enthralling otherwise good and honorable people, using shadows and illusions to get inside their heads, forcing them to betray their loved ones, to kill and eat those they care most about, and in doing so to become monsters, husks of their former selves, technically alive but soulless and monstrous, no longer human. They're a walking tabboo, a monstrous morality play, a warning of the insidious dangers of hunger and how you must be strong and fight off the evil thought of eatting your own dead, lest you actually partake and thus destroy yourself and all you love.

That said, there's nothing stopping you from playing an exceptional or unusual Wendigo. While all of the Infected must deal with dark and primal urges, some of them are better able to control their cravings and needs than others. For those with enough willpower and intellect, there's actually a very real possibility of being relatively unchanged, mentally. You'd still have to feed on human flesh, and you'd still have the capacity to control and influence people via your Infected Powers, but there's no absolute need to start a wendigo cult and enthrall humans to serve you.

It's a lot like vampires. Sure, you could subjugate the weak and create vampiric thralls to secretly perform your nefarious biddings, but you could always just buy blood packs from hospitals and the like instead. The primary difficulty for Special Infected is in maintaining their Essence, but even that can be managed without significant harm if you really want to. Renfield may allow some infected to take advantage of the weak willed and desperate to quietly feed without leaving corpses behind, but there's nothing stopping the infected from developing consensual relationships with non-infected, co-existing symbiotically and without having to be monstrous about it.

Heck, I personally have been kicking around the idea of playing a Dwarven corporate businessman who gets turned into a Goblin, but who thinks of it as being no different than living with any other chronic disease, and who publically is a spokesperson for the advancement of Infected rights. He'd secretly be running the shadows on the side to help fund his efforts, as well as help his cause in other less tangible ways.

Of course, for the Wendigo, I still wanna go full hog. There's something wonderfully creepy and atmospheric about a black hearted hunter of humans. Surviving as a Wendigo would require a lot of care, a lot of string pulling, and a certain capacity to walk the razor's edge between human cunning and animal savagery.

~Umi

Pardon me, but I might have missed it. I've seen "Renfield" mentioned a few times. What is it, and did I miss it in a book? I know the 'reference' to the character from Dracula, but I'm not sure about the Shadowrun connotations.

It's a magical "drug" that can be made by the vampiric Special Infected. It's in Running Wild for some reason, so it's easy to miss.


In my other thread a while back, one of the writers responsible for statting it out talks about how for a variety of reasons it's rather broken and badly written up at the moment. It's still useable, as I've personally found out, but it takes a little bit of care and consideration to get it workable in a way that won't cause arguments for players or GMs.

~Umi

Ahh thank you for the reply. Yep. That's probably why I missed it. I have Running Wild. I loved the old Paranormal Animals of NA. It's actually the book that got me side hooked into SR. Now.. *Motions to the 100s of Shadowrun books* Running Wild was a bit of a let down. I missed all the Shadowtalk stories from the ol P.A.N.A.

I'll be sure to pick it up and give it another glance.

I'm not sure how it'd really relate to Wendigo though.

Well.... I think I know.. but that gets freaky.. if you create the pawns through a "Wendigo-Renfield" Sort of deal.... do they actively hack off body parts for you? "Ohh the master is hungry.. the master is 10 feet tall.... takes alot to fill him up... someone get me a belt for a tourniquet and a chain saw!!! Master needs a leg!!" I mean... lol wha?? I went to college for psychology and minored in abnormal behavior. I know there are conditions where people want to excise their own limbs and stuff, but those are -------rare------- and... you'd think that... well. Your Renfield wouldn't last very long. There's only so many parts they CAN give up to feed ya, before...... lol

The imagry of that is almost worse. I mean the "Agreement with the infected societies to 'receive' the bodies of those that willingly donate to said society's is pretty bad. It skips the 'ritualistic' nature but.. you can almost understand it. I think it's in Runners Companion where it says some people actually DO volunteer their bodies for such ... 'service'?

Havin' a buncha flunkies cutting parts off of each other for your meals seems worse. lol

Common misconception "feeding" on essence doesn't actually require you to physically feed... You just nom on their soul.
Renfield pals are for your soul munchies, which you require to live... No limb chopping.
That chopped up guy in the fridge? That's dinner, which also need to live..

Renfield only helps the Essence problem. The Metahuman Flesh is a whole different beast.

Either buy corpses, or make your own. Your Renfields can do this for you as well. You enthrall them, then send them out to abduct the homeless or cut deals with back-alley clinics. Since they aren't giant, white-furred monsters, they'll have an easier time.

~Umi

Ahhhh ok. see I was envisioning it the other way. lol That their being your flunkies meant that they willingly gave up 'parts'. I get what you're saying now.

So does one NOT get essence from the... lets call them... "Suppliers of alternate dining styles"? I.E. if you're (( trying)) to be a good (Well mostly) Wendigo, and you have a contract with one of these Infected Society places to supply you with legally willingly donated corpses to nom upon, do you get essence from them, or do you still need to go out and get your "Soul munchies".

You still need to go out and get your soul munchies. They are completely different mechanics. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Well that frakin' sucks. Not bad enough you gotta nosh on other people (( and have you seen what people EAT in shadowrun... Soy... FROGs and CRICKETS for protean? Ugg.. )) You gotta think the meat doesn't taste good with all the chemicals and what not, but you gotta get your soul munchies too? Poor Wendigo.

Yeah, they've got the harshest requirements of all the Infected. Have to drain Essence (which Renfield allows you to do without killing, thankfully) and they need to eat flesh, which requires either killing or scavenging.

~Umi

Personally I'd get the Borrowed Time flaw for the character. When you are playing a cannibalistic monster who leaks essence, someone is eventually going to whack you for the bounty or just because. May as well get points for it.

If you are trying to get around the signature traits of a wendigo so that they don't impact your play, I'd suggest not playing a wendigo because you don't really want to play a wendigo.

For me, that was the thing. I do NOT want to get around traits. I feel like it's cheating to try and get around such things. Using a helping company to get your 'exotic' foodstuffs.. that's one thing but yeah the rest of it was a bit big of a deal and didn't fit my character type so I made something else. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I totally agree with your post though, if you want to play an exotic concept, play the thing, don't take away lots of the defining traits.

Borrowed Time? Seriously? Isn't that a little... drastic?

I mean, why shouldn't a Wendigo be able to successfully remain undiscovered for their entire career? You'd have to be smart and careful about it, sure, but it's not impossible. Using Renfield to supply yourself with Essence and buying cadavers from shady medical suppliers doesn't mean you're trying to get around the challenges of being a Wendigo, it means you're being smart and trying not to get yourself killed. It's weird to me that people will often applaud you if you play black trenchcoat as a normal metahuman, but will often rebuke you for doing the exact same thing with an Infected character.

And as for playing an exotic concept, what's wrong with breaking stereotypes? If one player wants to play a traditional Dracula style vampire, and another one wants to play a neon-mohawked neo-anarchist combat-biker hipster-punk vampire pirate trideo celebrity wannabe, I'd personally be happy to accomodate both. I wouldn't let either of them just ignore their Dietary Requirements or Essence Drain, but I'd allow each of them to go about handling those problems in whatever way they see fit. Vlad Dracula might choose to flit stealthily through the shadows, hunting down and preying on the blood and essence of helpless virgins, then shapechanging into a bat and flying off into the gloom, while Nicky "Novacoke" Diamond just throws insane afterparties and gets his various needs met by his legions of groupies. Both characters are equally valid.

Exotic concepts aren't sacred and immutable. They're just exotic. Breaking the conventions about vampires and ghouls and the like can be just as rewarding as playing them straight. I admit, the reason these concepts remain popular and stay with us is that they speak to us about certain deep, universal human fears and failings, and exploring those themes can be a very strong foundation for a character or a roleplay. But at the same time, subverting them can be just as interesting and just as worth exploring. I mean, what if someone showed you a Wendigo who, instead of being just a mindless monster, was actually more like Beast from the X-Men? Or a New-Age Banshee hippy, who was a cheerful celebrator of life rather than a wailing lamenter of death? There's room enough for all kinds of Infected - not just the traditional storybook variety.

~Umi

I think this hasn't been mentioned yet, so: it's also possible for players to cover their dietary requirements through lifestyle.

Runner's Companion, p. 78:

Yeah, the idea there being that you're buying the flesh from somewhere: a cyberware chop-shop, a morgue, Tamanous if you're a really sick or desperate, et cetera.

It's a great option for anyone who wants to play an Infected character who isn't just a rampaging murder machine. Not everyone who ends up a ghoul loses their humanity or morals, ya know. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

~Umi

You're right. There's nothing bad about doing the above. I guess part of my problem was a solid decade of playing WoD games, where most everyone thought they had to be special snowflakes. The Militant Child of Gaia. The peaceful Get of Fenris, the gutter Silverfang (Though this one is supported in canon), the calm thoughtful Brujah, the punkish Ventrue, ect ect ect. It got to the point that if you were playing THE Sterotype, you seemed like the strange one. If you played a biker Brujah, or a painter Torrie, or a (more) Peaceful (though not totally) Coggie or what ever, you stood out, because SOOOO Many people played the non traditional _______.

So, for myself (( and I can only speak for myself)) I personally like to embrace the things that make special characters special. Now, you're 100% right, you don't have to play the mindless beast Wendigo. Infact if it's a PC it's going to be assumed you're NOT one of the mindless cannibalistic sorts. It's going to be preseumed you're one of the exceptional ones in some way that makes you a viable player character.

I think for me, I just kinda liked the imagery more than the "infected, ritually cannibalistic giant furry orc".

Personally for me, the "Giant white furred orc" I.E. A Wendigo or Yeti type was what I wanted. lol Which is much easier done with SURGE.

Infact... MUCH MUCH Easier with SURGE. And could be fun in it's own right. People might think the giant white furred SURGE orc IS a Wendigo, but infact.. he's not. Not 'Infected' doesn't eat people and doesn't need the soul Munchies... but has to live with the fact that many out there --think-- that he --is-- infected and --does-- eat people and --does-- get the soul munchies.

That in and of itself would be complex and a challenge to play.

I just like Sasquatch and Yetis.... and the ShadowRun Sasquatch are.... not what I'm looking for.

Stream of thought responses here... I don't apologize.

Invisibility is another spell, just like alleviate allergy. Sustain one or the other. Pick.
Customized spellcraft can resolve this to an extent, a sort of "Personalized Shadow" spell.

Nutrition is not designed as is to handle two specific things unique to this thread. The first is Nutrition, unless changed dramatically and I missed it, does not resolve the psychological issues of "needing to eat tangible grub". The second is it only works with normal metahuman physiology. Essential sustainance is a different issue. Different spell might be possible.

Renfield as a solution to essence loss. As the Infected in question is using their own to make the stuff, it might be a good idea to realize that it won't support the source individual at all. And if you are going to ingest someone else's Renfield concoction, do you not subject yourself to becoming that individuals addict? Literal food for thought.

Metahumans are not Critters as defined by Magic. I don't care if you are human, ork, wakyambi or a gnome, neither Shapechange nor Transform as written will give you a metahuman form/disguise. Again, different spell formulation could.

Sasquoi and Language. They understand the language, even spoken language. What they lack is the connective neurology to allow them to formulate audible speech. "SOUNDS" are not necessarily patterned or structured in the same manner as "SPEECH". The usage of the sign language bypass involves both alternative neurological constructivism as well the ability to communicate in a form patterned and shared by others with same. Remember, a sign language know soft only allows for comprehension... It takes wires or similar implants to allow for two,way communication here.

Horns.... Consider the ORDER of,character development. Perhaps the Ork had horns PRIOR to Infection and they survived the conversion. You pay for the horns first and then wendigo afterwards. It will also help you to create character back history as to how they became infected.

SURGE is the greatest example of how to explain stupid shit for character play that might have possibly ever been put into the SR Universe.

Hiding in plain sight. While the Secrets of Power trilogy from way back may not be greatest of examples, Wendigo are FAR from mindless brutes. They are cognitive, manipulative, thinking MONSTERS. You want a suggestion to play this? Think of Beast (as in Beauty and the...) from the Disney flick. Now tweak it only slightly. Those mood swings of his are appetite urges trying to come out. He's otherwise very capable of cordial and civil living. Also, depending on the cityscape for your games, clothing is the simplest option to hide. The weather in Shadowrun is one of,the greatest ways to hide ones identity. Capes, cloaks, etc are but a few of,the Vashon Island trends....

Sorry, this conversation is an old one to me.... Like 20 years plus now. I enjoy, and even relish a player taking on a more challenging character type like this. If the group is also ready for it, then more enjoyment to your games.

I bet you want the Yeti from the 3rd Mummy franchise......

I'll definitely agree on the topic of Sasquatches in Shadowrun. They've got entirely the wrong feel to them - like something from a bad 90s movie (a la Encino Man, et cetera), like they're your big furry friends, a more peaceful and gentler version of a Wookiee. Absolutely hate that about them.

Bandersnatchii could be an interesting stand-in for yetis, if not for the fact that their Dietary Requirement of Sasquatch Flesh is absurdly limiting if you actually think about it. There are only an estimated 35,000 sasquatches worldwide. If you want to play a Bandersnatch and not starve, you're gonna have to live in a Sasquatch population center, and you're going to have to hunt them yourself or have others hunt for you. For a ghoul or wendigo, it's comparatively simple to snatch up humans from crowded urban centers. There are untold numbers of poor and desperate, and if they're SINless it isn't even considered a crime.

~Umi