Tried pointing that out, and I just got a "read the relevant book" remark. AFTER quoting the passage stating what program types can take options (just because the Empathy Software is in a different book than Program Options).

You don't need to optimise it. Just run it on a peripheral node. Cybereyes, sensor module, etc. with a jacked up System.

The trouble with shoehorning all of the software options from Unwired into limiting empathy software is that it is sensor software specifically stated to be able to run in "standard trideo/video cameras". And insisting that you need expensive commlinks for it runs into the logical problem that you can get the same results from a cheap toy.

Even if you do that, it only takes it out of the realm of normal people - it doesn't do anything to hold back PCs, who will typically get a super-modded commlink anyways, for securing their PAN, team communications, and tacnets. The problem isn't furbies giving you a +6 bonus, it is the software, period, giving you a bonus that is so far out of scale with any other bonus - it is the equivalent of max-rated tailored pheromones and max-rated kinesics, combined. The supernatural power of glamour, which makes people shower the character with awed adulation, gives half of the bonus that you can get from empathy software. Empathy software is to SR4 what the mnemonic enhancer was to SR3, only perhaps even more unbalancing - in an area that already has vague rules for its effects, and far too many modifiers that stack.

At which point I reiterate my earlier point...it's a problem in SR4 in general.

Why all this outrage at a piece of software which will cost thousands of dollars, on top of a commlink that will cost over 10,000 to run it.

When I can get a rating 6 medkit for peanuts in comparison.


Medkit okay? Expensive commlink running it not? Furbies most definitely not (at the same price as the medkit)!

I agree the furbies low base price and cost and stacking is a problem. I don't agree with the outrage against empathy in particular... as it's only one example out of many endemic to SR4. By this scale... people who read tacnets with the most expansive reading to give a bonus to EVERYTHING on the list instead are getting an outright steal.

I can simply think of more and bigger problems than just the empathy... all based on the SR4 relative dice pool sizes.

Hmm...

How would folks think about stuff like Empathy Software and MedKits providing a team bonus, like another PC assisting you, rather than the flat DP boost?

They'd roll their own dice, and any successes get added to your dice pool.



-k

KI:
At this point I think the horse has already left the barn... no need to close the door now. Put simply, equipment and how it functions and interacts with skills & attributes is being changed in SR5. The topic now is much ado about nothing.


While your idea to treat autopickers, medkits, tacnets, etc. etc. etc. (there are a lot of them in the game) as teamwork tests has some merit. It also has serious problems... if the 'kit' glitches a teamwork test on 6 dice?

I was hoping that there was some obscure forum post from a developer about this. It almost felt like an incomplete sentence that was left unfinished by accident...I could have seen it saying....adds 6 dice to all social tests...involving judge intentions, or something far more limited.

I am considering using the house-rule that every NPC has empathy software at their comlinks response rating, but since this is for Missions characters I don't feel I can ban something that is clearly not disallowed.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
I just wanted to post that we Use Emotisoft and Emotitoys in our Groups but only with Teamwork Test (Each Success of the Software gives +1 Die capped by the Skill of the User) and don't consider them OP or Imba

with an OK Dance
Medicineman

If someone bothered buying it in my group, I'd rule it just as it is. There's no real problem with it, just a bunch of people griping about it because they gripe about everything CGL does.

Never had a problem with it either. Just remember the line, "what the players can do, so too can the NPCs." Your player face abusing the Empathy software? Guess what, so does Mr. Johnson.

Oh, it's feeling persecuted time again.

just to adda logistics point to this debate ...

books say it can be in stalled in Standard Trideo/Video cameras .. doesn't mention covert cams and cyber-eyes or comms

so without inferrence that it could be used elsewhere, you end up with the following reply to any social interaction.

"get that camera outta my face chummer or i'll give you a new essence hole !" instantly the opponent has negative modifiers to counter your software bonus.

as for the Toy's .. but unless you are a 12 year old with that furrby, then any johnson worth his salt is gonna do 2 things

check for bugs and put a bullet in the furrby
or
have a signal jammer / white noise generator that will negate the use of it in those circumstances.

it's just not worth getting caught trying to use that shit.

Funny. When asked that question I don't lie, and I'm not dead. My point of view is, "if you don't want the truth, don't ask me". Luckily for me, my g/f's POV is the same.

Not arguing with your point, just the way you chose to illustrate it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

So the cameras are two hundred meters away. Huzzah, telephoto lenses!

Besides which, that kind of nitpickery is what I call "rules lawyering of the worst sort". In the 2070s, Cybereyes pretty much are "standard cameras".


The Johnson pulls a gun at a meet, and there're going to be more bullets going into HIM, than into my drone/pet.

The jammer won't work either, since I'm in my Steampunk outfit, complete with miniature (and fire-breathing) Steampunk Dragon ... emotitoy. Which so happens to be hard-wired to my vest. Which is in turn Skinlink modified. And that can't be jammed without tazing me ... which brings us back to the Johnson getting the bullets, not me or my toy.

Thirdly? My g/f takes a stuffed animal with her to the movies, the mall, pretty close to everywhere. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

There's something seriously wrong with emotoys being cheaper and easier to run than the empathy software itself.


Yes, but that leads to dice pool inflation across the board. The buckets-o-dice problems have been well discussed, and emotoys just make it worse.

Of course, there is a problem with it. It's stupidly broken. And that's Empathy Software. Not even going into Emotitoys, there isn't even a word to describe how stupid those are.

Just compare it with other social bonuses, like Tailored Pheromones, or Kinesics, or whatever, and what kind of investment you have to make for those.

6 extra dice for all social tests for the neglectible cost is simply too much.

The Teamwork Test works a lot better. It is still very good then (and close to a must-have due to the low cost).

Bye
Thanee

You know, for someone who complains so often about being insulted, you're doing an awful lot of sweeping, and very much insulting generalizations.
The thing is, you can actually criticize without being a hater or whiny brat. The world is not as black and white as you make it out to be.
For example: I like some things the company does, and I don't like others. No one is perfect, but a +6 toything doesn't make the people behind CGL bad persons, nor bad game designers. The overall system actually does work, contrary to such minor points.
Actually: Criticism helps to make a product or person better. IF you are willing to take it, that is

point.

but surely adding S/W that you use for social or other interaction needs some form of DNI above just installing cyber eyes ?

maybe even a skillsoft suite ? .. I don't know all the rules here. just throwing ideas

okay so he's not gonna pull a gun, but he's going to be instantly on the defensive and suspect it for what it is, negating the bonus for sure and
if it was me, refuse to do business with your group. that uses such obvious ploys

I mean .. tailored pheromones I can handle and expect even, but trying to out-cute me with that gizmo (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

and not wanting to call your g/f into question but ... does it give her any extra social dice ? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I disagree that the software itself is "broken". The very fact that you need a higher-end commlink to run it at more than R2 or R3, is a limiting factor.

But you could always limit it to R3 or R4 maximum, if you like.


IMO, only because they're too cheap; the cost could stand to be significantly higher. Also, see above about limited ratings; limit the toys even further (R1 or R2 only, perhaps).

Hmmm, am i wrong in saying that you are limited in modifiers to the skill rating

i.e. I only have Ettiquette 2, so my rating 6 emo-toy only gives me bonus 2 ??

Nope.

Cybereyes are wireless capable (though I generally tend to switch that function off, while adding skinlink, for signals security reasons, myself). They serve as both the camera, and the display.

You already need "somethign else", in the form of a commlink to run the software (or one of the toys to run it).


Eh, negate the bonus, no. Refuse to negotiate, maybe - but then, "Alright then, have it your way. Go find someone else do do the job - bye!"


It doesn't have to be cute.


Well, keep in mind, she hasn't got an emotitoy, it's just a stuffed animal. And she treats it like an outfit accessory.

But, in some places, and with some people? Yes, I'd say it does. At Arisia (annual Science Fiction convention, every January in Boston), for example, she's earned a reputation for being someone who regularly gives things, usually stuffed animals, to all and sundry as she wanders the halls (she's constantly buying new ones, and has to "thin the herd" every year or two - I insist, because Ilike having room to walk around our house, hehehe). This year, it was roses ... made of duct tape and bamboo skewers, in a riotous array of colors ... literally, no two of the 300+ of them were identical.




I believe you're thinking of a limit like that for the "Improved Ability" Adept power, where the bonus dice from that ability is limited to one-half of the skill rating.

And that would make another decent option to limit the impact of empathy software, too.

Yeah, so R5 is easily available at the start, bad enough. It's way cheaper than other social modifier gear. And does not cost Essence or requires Magic. And it is better. And legal.



Sure, but that does not change how the rule is written. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)



Yeah, reasonable cost and reasonable Rating (1, max 2) would be ok.

But as it stands it is R6 for 600¥ and readily available. Including the five-figures, Availability 16 hardware you need to run the Empathy software at that level. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Bye
Thanee

Here's a comparison of some gear/abilities that offer bonuses to all (in person) social tests:

Tailored Pheromones 1-3 -> 0.2 Essence + 15,000¥ per +1 to all social tests, illegal
Enhanced Pheromone Receptors 1 -> 0.1 Essence + 5,000¥ per +1 to all social tests, disadvantage vs Tailored Pheromones
Enhanced Pheromone Receptors 3 -> 0.05 Essence + 7,500¥ per +1 to all social tests, disadvantage vs Tailored Pheromones
Kinesics 1-3 -> 0.5 Magic (Quality required) per +1 to all social tests
Empathy Software 3 -> 500¥ per +1 to all social tests PLUS 617¥ per +1 to all social tests for a Novatech Airware with System 3
Empathy Software 5 -> 500¥ per +1 to all social tests PLUS 1,900¥ per +1 to all social tests for a Hermes Ikon with Response 5 upgrade and System 5
Empathy Software 6 -> 500¥ per +1 to all social tests PLUS 3,000¥ per +1 to all social tests for a Hermes Ikon with Response 5+6 upgrade and System 6, Availability 16
Emotitoy 6 -> 100¥ per +1 to all social tests


Empathy Software should be 5,000¥ per Rating and offer +1 to all social tests for half its Rating (rounded up), or work like a Teamwork test; full Rating for Judge Intentions.

Emotitoys should be 1,000¥ and be Rating 1 (fixed); adding 1 to the runner's Notoriety, if the roll results in a Glitch. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Bye
Thanee

next kid we see in the street in Bogotá, Thanee, we are totally mugging him and stealing his Furrby !!

and then you strip the software out of that thing and sell it on it's own for more.