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artent
Arsenal pg. 60
"Empathy: Empathy software is designed for use with
standard video/trideo cameras, carefully analyzing the behavioral
patterns of the subject to ascertain mood, interest, and so
on. Empathy soft ware can be used to make a Judge Intentions Test
(see p. 130, SR4) for emotional status using its rating as the dice
pool. It does not detect falsehoods; that’s the realm of lie detection
soft ware."

sounds legit, but then.....

"Empathy soft ware can be discreetly used in real time during
negotiations or social interactions, adding its rating as a dice
pool bonus to the character’s Social skill tests."

Wait..so I get +6 dice to all my social tests just for having this installed in my comlink at 3k with an image link? Am I missing something?
Stahlseele
no, it is that bulldrek stupid . .
it is SO MUCH of a MUST HAVE, that even old granny smith should have it running all the time . .
all it really does is make every pc and ever npc have 6 more dice in their pool . .
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Well, you are not installing a Rating 6 Software Package into a Low-end Comlink, either. So yes, you are missing something.
Typically, the average user will have a +2 to +3 for their Comlink. Big deal...

What is stupid are the Emotitoys. *sigh*
DamHawke
But who wouldn't want a colourful critter sitting on their shoulder, feeding useful info to your commlink wink.gif

Well, anyone who doesn't have a reputation to protect anyway.

Kiirnodel
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 7 2013, 12:16 PM) *
Well, you are not installing a Rating 6 Software Package into a Low-end Comlink, either. So yes, you are missing something.
Typically, the average user will have a +2 to +3 for their Comlink. Big deal...

What is stupid are the Emotitoys. *sigh*

Right, don't forget that a program's rating is limited by the system of the commlink.
Bearclaw
QUOTE (DamHawke @ Mar 7 2013, 11:06 AM) *
But who wouldn't want a colourful critter sitting on their shoulder, feeding useful info to your commlink wink.gif

Well, anyone who doesn't have a reputation to protect anyway.


What you call a "colourful critter" I call a drone, providing an extra set of eyes and ears. Upgrade the sensors with all the hearing boosts and he makes sure you don't get snuck up on or miss any sub-vocal conversations going on. And gives you +6 to your social skills tests smile.gif

At my table, we've decided the EVERYONE has Empathy software, so unless it's a special situation, like a street vendor in Lagos, we don't add those dice.
Elfenlied
It's not more stupid or ubiquitous than the smartlink, which is also must have and extremely cheap. Just remember to have a high rating comlink. And actually use all social modifiers.
hermit
QUOTE
Question on Empathy software, it can't be that broken

It can.
Modular Man
I don't think it would be that difficult to direct a hidden camera feed to the emotitoy hidden in the face's purse or backpack, so... That's were things start to get nasty.
Me, I'm thinking of anti-camera equipment for our face. Kills other emotitoys whereas hers keeps working.
Well, at least until those get houserule-hammered, which is also a slight possibility if my character starts doubling his pool wink.gif (or worse, the Uncouth dude starts facing, now that he got skillwires...)
hermit
Empathy software is available without MooDragon™. MooDragon™ makes Sadface 2.1™!
bannockburn
MooDragon™ is your rightful overlord! Bow before his majesty!
Critias
QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Mar 7 2013, 03:34 PM) *
It's not more stupid or ubiquitous than the smartlink, which is also must have and extremely cheap.

Though it does provide three times the die-pool benefit, FWIW.
Falconer
Meh... I had a street sam/face tossing 12 dice with empathy included. Is that so stupidly broken?

(4cha, 4 ranks in the social skill group, 4 empathy software running on an internal only commlink; as he saw it he already had the eyes and the internal link and the skills... why not shell out for some extra software. empathy, lie detection, face recognition were the 3 he went with).

Though I agree in principle. But given how utterly ludicrous large social dice pools can get 30 dice pornomancers anyone? This is small potatoes.

Yeah stacking emotipets are the bigger problem.
Stahlseele
think about it this way:
skills are by nature limited to 6.
the usual metahuman charisma is limited to 6 or less with only elves getting a 7.
basically, this bit of software is WORLD CLASS SKILL LEVEL.
OR maximum unaugmented Charisma.
And in your example, that was a 50% improvement.
The only reason people don't think this is bad is because this is not for Body or Str or Agi . .
JanessaVR
The social consequences of this have been explored in The Truth Machine. It posits that wide-scale everyday use of an unbeatable lie detector would transform society and eliminate crime (heck, when you travel anywhere, they first ask if you've broken any laws). The author saw it as utopian - I was curling up in terror.
hermit
It's puritan utopia. Dishonesty, though, is a necessary part of communication (not just human, mind you). Social interaction is impossible otherwise. Then, all you have are data streams being processed by nodes. Some utopia.
JanessaVR
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 7 2013, 01:02 PM) *
It's puritan utopia. Dishonesty, though, is a necessary part of communication (not just human, mind you). Social interaction is impossible otherwise. Then, all you have are data streams being processed by nodes. Some utopia.

Not arguing. smile.gif
hermit
I think this is an excellent representation of empathy software at work - and possible social reactions to it, too.
Stahlseele
"Honey, does this Dress make my ass look fat?" < = you lie or you die . .
Falconer
Stahl.. yes it was a 50% improvement... But the character in question did not dumpstat charisma (soft maxed human-looking orc). Maxed out the skills in chargen (rating 4 skillgroups).

Compare above character to a full fledged pornomancer. 30 dice between adept powers... tailored pheromones, etc. etc. etc. plus empathy software. My point was that I didn't consider it a broken example running the software on an internal response 4 commlink. (no trying to cheese it out and run it right on the cybereyes for example... something I think is possible but only if the empathy is rewritten specifically to run on that model cybereye peripheral...).


Lets look at other examples though... rating 6 medkit anyone? Where's the outrage there +6 dice and use the skill untrained. There is other equipment in the game which adds it's rating 1-6 to assorted tests.


Your outrage isn't at empathy (excepting emotipets), it's at the system as a whole. Your outrage is at a system where people can easily pull twice as many dice from an attribute as the skill, then get equipment to equal the skill. So by the end of the day only a quarter of the dice are coming from skill as opposed to other sources.

SR5 is already addressing this... skills now going 1-12. Equipment becoming a precision type thing instead of extra dice is the general gist of the little we've been shown so far.

Hermit:
Yeah I loved that short film when others linked it earlier...
hermit
Think of raising children, too, but yes, there are situations where honesty isn't a virtue, or even socially inadequate (see Stahlseele).
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Critias @ Mar 7 2013, 01:51 PM) *
Though it does provide three times the die-pool benefit, FWIW.


It CAN proivide up to 3x the benefit. The average user will likely only have +2 to +3. *shrug*
Whereas EVERY user gets that +2 for Smartlink. smile.gif
hermit
What, normal characters cannot afford three-digit prices anymore? A lv. 6 nonmobile MooDragon™ is 600 Nuyen ... with no Availability rating.
Thorguild
QUOTE (Falconer @ Mar 7 2013, 04:06 PM) *
Your outrage isn't at empathy (excepting emotipets), it's at the system as a whole. Your outrage is at a system where people can easily pull twice as many dice from an attribute as the skill, then get equipment to equal the skill. So by the end of the day only a quarter of the dice are coming from skill as opposed to other sources.


(I should really put this in another post, but)

This is a point of cognitive dissonance for me in SR. It was less bad in Cyberpunk, where "Metal is Better than Meat" was the game's actual battlecry. This future has cybertech that are more common than autos in our world. We use autos to routinely travel 30x faster than my best sprint. Metal IS better than meat. The game wants to make meat stand a chance against metal. That's a hard row to hoe.

"The Truth Machine" is a great example. By 3/4 through, everyone had them built into common clothes, and the display went to invisible (except to the user) dots inside glasses. In a companion book, the main character routinely blocked his view of it when talking to family to give them "respectful privacy".

IRL, it isn't hard to see a future where bullets DON'T miss. Invisibly-small drones might land on you and blow you to bits with zero warning. Machines and code might read your physical state so well they know things about that YOU don't.

Circling back, though, I think the OP is really talking about how to use this game mechanic without changing the ENTIRE world like has been done in the story. Maybe just decide you don't want it in your world and ban it?

Thorguild
Stahlseele
Some people actually do question stuff that is in the books.
For example, both fluff AND crunch make it impossible to be a shadowrunner using a fake sin . .
hermit
SINs would work a lot better if they were capped at 10, not 6.
Garvel
QUOTE (Falconer @ Mar 7 2013, 10:06 PM) *
Stahl.. yes it was a 50% improvement... But the character in question did not dumpstat charisma (soft maxed human-looking orc). Maxed out the skills in chargen (rating 4 skillgroups).

Compare above character to a full fledged pornomancer. 30 dice between adept powers... tailored pheromones, etc. etc. etc. plus empathy software. My point was that I didn't consider it a broken example running the software on an internal response 4 commlink. (no trying to cheese it out and run it right on the cybereyes for example... something I think is possible but only if the empathy is rewritten specifically to run on that model cybereye peripheral...).


Lets look at other examples though... rating 6 medkit anyone? Where's the outrage there +6 dice and use the skill untrained. There is other equipment in the game which adds it's rating 1-6 to assorted tests.


Your outrage isn't at empathy (excepting emotipets), it's at the system as a whole. Your outrage is at a system where people can easily pull twice as many dice from an attribute as the skill, then get equipment to equal the skill. So by the end of the day only a quarter of the dice are coming from skill as opposed to other sources.

SR5 is already addressing this... skills now going 1-12. Equipment becoming a precision type thing instead of extra dice is the general gist of the little we've been shown so far.

Hermit:
Yeah I loved that short film when others linked it earlier...


No the problem is that 6 dice is for to many. If the smartgun system gave 6 dice it would be broken. If the emoti software gave 2 dice it wouldnt be broken.

And the 6 dice from the medkit are not for an opposed test, where one character rolls against another. They are for a first aid test with a treshhold that is ballanced so that the character needs a high rating medkit to have a chance to heal at least a little damage.
If you have no skill and average logic and get the usual dice modifier for bad circumstances, and a patient that is either awakened or has implants, you usually end up with 6 dice. Now you roll on average 2 succeses and have healed exactly 0 boxes of damage and wasted the chance of someone with a higher skillrating to first aid the patient succesfull. Congratulations.

That a hightech medkit gives a significant advantage at saving people is plausible. That a high end matrixprogram gives a significant advantage at hacking is plausible. That antidote gives you a significant advantage for surviving poison is plasible too. Here the six bonus dice are justified.

But 6 bonus dice for social tests which are usually opposed, thats simply too much.

As stated before that is the difference between charisma 1 and 7.
I could totally see such a program make someone with charisma 1 as succesful as someone with charisma 3. But not charisma 7. That is simply too much.
JanessaVR
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Mar 7 2013, 01:41 PM) *
Some people actually do question stuff that is in the books.
For example, both fluff AND crunch make it impossible to be a shadowrunner using a fake sin . .

Yeah, I always had a bit of an issue with that myself. Didn't someone have a thread some years back about a revised system for fake ID, with the higher quality fakes being a lot more expensive, and taking a lot more time to setup?
Stahlseele
simple fix:
make the level of the ID the treshhold the scanner has to achieve in net hits to detect that it's fake.
just needs to make the id's much more expensive.
and the scanners too, of course.
Garvel
We houseruled it that you compare SIN and Scanner like you compare initiative:
You roll, and then add the successes to the base rating. Then you compare who has the higher value.

This way the rating 2 scanners in the shoping mall are no problem for your rating 6 SIN, but the rating 5 scanner at the airport can still be.
bannockburn
QUOTE (Garvel @ Mar 7 2013, 11:31 PM) *
We houseruled it that you compare SIN and Scanner like you compare initiative:
You roll, and then add the successes to the base rating. Then you compare who has the higher value.

This way the rating 2 scanners in the shoping mall are no problem for your rating 6 SIN, but the rating 5 scanner at the airport can still be.

I like that!
*yoink*
hermit
QUOTE (Garvel @ Mar 7 2013, 11:31 PM) *
We houseruled it that you compare SIN and Scanner like you compare initiative:
You roll, and then add the successes to the base rating. Then you compare who has the higher value.

This way the rating 2 scanners in the shoping mall are no problem for your rating 6 SIN, but the rating 5 scanner at the airport can still be.

That's a good fix.
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (Garvel @ Mar 7 2013, 05:31 PM) *
We houseruled it that you compare SIN and Scanner like you compare initiative:
You roll, and then add the successes to the base rating. Then you compare who has the higher value.

This way the rating 2 scanners in the shoping mall are no problem for your rating 6 SIN, but the rating 5 scanner at the airport can still be.


Oh, I'm going to have to suggest that to my group.



re: Empathy Software, I like to think of it as being like the CASIE aug from Deus Ex.
KarmaInferno
This is relevant to the conversation.




-k
FuelDrop
QUOTE (Garvel @ Mar 8 2013, 06:31 AM) *
We houseruled it that you compare SIN and Scanner like you compare initiative:
You roll, and then add the successes to the base rating. Then you compare who has the higher value.

This way the rating 2 scanners in the shoping mall are no problem for your rating 6 SIN, but the rating 5 scanner at the airport can still be.

Jumping on the band-wagon and saying that this seems like a very good system.
Novocrane
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Mar 8 2013, 08:40 AM) *
re: Empathy Software, I like to think of it as being like the CASIE aug from Deus Ex.

If someone has the emphasis "Empathy Software" in a social skill, they can effectively cut you off as you attempt to follow notes?
All4BigGuns
QUOTE (Garvel @ Mar 7 2013, 03:48 PM) *
No the problem is that 6 dice is for to many. If the smartgun system gave 6 dice it would be broken. If the emoti software gave 2 dice it wouldnt be broken.


No, it's not. Not in the slightest. In order to use Empathy Software at that rating, you have to get the most powerful Response module and System rating listed in the core book--in fact, the most powerful until the military grade versions in War! came out--and as such, you're paying far more for that bonus from the software than you are for the bonus that a smartlink grants.

Now the emotitoys could be considered a bit broken given their much cheaper price, but that's why the only thing I would use those little drones for is for 'flavor' purposes, maybe as little innocuous reconnaissance units.
SpellBinder
Empathy 6 with Optimization 3 will run at full power on a DV 3 commlink, and a heck of a lot cheaper than buying a commlink powerful enough to run it otherwise.
All4BigGuns
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Mar 7 2013, 05:23 PM) *
Empathy 6 with Optimization 3 will run at full power on a DV 3 commlink, and a heck of a lot cheaper than buying a commlink powerful enough to run it otherwise.


It's program type isn't one of those on the list of things that can take program options, so no, that method won't work.

QUOTE
Only Common Use (p. 232, SR4A), Hacking (p. 233, SR4A),
Autosoft (p. 246, SR4A, and p. 112), and Simsense programs (including
BTLs and skillso s) may be equipped with program options.
hermit
QUOTE
No, it's not. Not in the slightest. In order to use Empathy Software at that rating, you have to get the most powerful Response module and System rating listed in the core book--in fact, the most powerful until the military grade versions in War!

That is plain nonsense. All you need is to walk into an Electronics Emporium and shell out 600 Nuyen for a rating 6 EmoToy. And EmoSoft doesn't need military grade systems to run. In fact, it runs fine on unrated systems, because software ratings in SR4 are broken like that.

QUOTE
It's program type isn't one of those on the list of things that can take program options, so no, that method won't work.

You should read the relevant book, All4.
bannockburn
Let's add it up then, shall we?
First: You don't need response 6 for running a rating 6 program. So, we'll take a runner's commlink of average cost, let's say the Hermes Ikon at 3000 nuyen. Add on an OS with a system rating of 4 and upgrade that to 6
Novatech Navi, an additional 1,5k. System 6, 3000 nuyen. We're now at a whopping investment of 7500 nuyen. Add in the actual software at 3000 nuyen, and you've got 10,5k nuyen invested for a commlink capable of running your Empathy Software rating 6 and the program.
And we will also ignore optimization for the moment, because, honestly, just about every runner wants to run rating 6 programs, for encryption purposes at the very least.

Now, let's see what else there is that adds up to this kind of bonus.
Medkits? Sure. I think the story is kind of different there, though. They help in keeping your team stitched together (and thus assist in actually having the game) and aren't something you use all the time for 4-6 different skills (depending on reading).
Let's take something to resist damage, then. This is used often, right? We have ... a max bonus of +4 to damage resistance tests with bone density augmentation, clocking in at 80k, AND 1,2 essence. Available at character creation, like the commlink, but almost eight times as expensive. Ceramic Bone lacing (available at creation, unlike titanium) adds 4 dice as well, though 2 of those can be circumvented by AP weaponry. Still double the price of the commlink at over 20k.
Yes, there is a huge bonus at a relatively low investment. Even without considering MooDragon™, your rightful overlord, which sets you back between 600 and 2600 nuyen. The cost at least, because there is no pricetag on owning MooDragon™.
Also, 7,5k of these 10,5k are usable for A LOT of other things as well.
All4BigGuns
The cost of the 'toy drones' is indicative of a problem with Empathy Software itself. If one is going to house rule or ban something, make it the 'toy drone' if anything since it's obvious that's where people's problem lies (since that tends to be what everyone jumps immediately to every time it gets brought up).

As to the 'read the relevant book' line, I did. I quoted Unwired on what program types may receive Program Options. Sensor Software is not among those.
hermit
QUOTE
As to the 'read the relevant book' line, I did. I quoted Unwired on what program types may receive Program Options. Sensor Software is not among those.

You did not, then. Because the relevant book is Arsenal.

For reference: Unwired deals with Matrix programs. Those can have options and take up commlink slots and all that. Sensor software runs in sensors and does not take up slots. You can run the EmoSoft in a camera, or a cybereye. You can even run it in your commlink's camera. There's no rating limit on what you can run either.
SpellBinder
QUOTE (bannockburn @ Mar 7 2013, 04:52 PM) *
Let's add it up then, shall we?
First: You don't need response 6 for running a rating 6 program. So, we'll take a runner's commlink of average cost, let's say the Hermes Ikon at 3000 nuyen. Add on an OS with a system rating of 4 and upgrade that to 6
...
From SR4a, page 222, under System:
"System limits the rating of programs running on the device, and sets the limit on most devices for the number of programs that can be run without a Response drop. The System program is limited by the base Response rating of the device it is on: if the base Response rating of the device is lower than the System rating, then the System rating is set to equal the Response rating."

Your Response 4, System 6 commlink is running as if it's Response 4, System 4 and all your software without Optimization will run at a rating of 4 at best.
All4BigGuns
I used the appropriate source to counter the point involving Program Options.
bannockburn
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Mar 8 2013, 01:00 AM) *
From SR4a, page 222, under System:
"System limits the rating of programs running on the device, and sets the limit on most devices for the number of programs that can be run without a Response drop. The System program is limited by the base Response rating of the device it is on: if the base Response rating of the device is lower than the System rating, then the System rating is set to equal the Response rating."

Your Response 4, System 6 commlink is running as if it's Response 4, System 4 and all your software without Optimization will run at a rating of 4 at best.

Oh, thank you for pointing that out. I misremembered.
It still makes the entire investment cheaper than just about everything else that gives even less bonus dice, with now 13,5k, so the point still stands smile.gif
Bearclaw
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 7 2013, 04:42 PM) *
That is plain nonsense. All you need is to walk into an Electronics Emporium and shell out 600 Nuyen for a rating 6 EmoToy. And EmoSoft doesn't need military grade systems to run. In fact, it runs fine on unrated systems, because software ratings in SR4 are broken like that.


This is the important part. If you are buying a topflight comm-link to avoid having a little drone hidden on your body some where you are doing it wrong.
"Ha! My Furby™ says you're lying!" Indeed.
All4BigGuns
QUOTE (bannockburn @ Mar 7 2013, 06:03 PM) *
Oh, thank you for pointing that out. I misremembered.
It still makes the entire investment cheaper than just about everything else that gives even less bonus dice, with now 13,5k, so the point still stands smile.gif


That's a lot to spend just for that. Just because you don't like it, doesn't make it 'broken', and even if something can be abused, that doesn't mean that it will be abused.
bannockburn
I didn't say it is broken.
For me, this is merely an academic question, since we all (edit: where I usually play) agree that it is stupid to have a piece of equipment at such a low price available for just about everyone who even semi-regularly embarks in negotiations.

Which is why I pointed out the price disparity.
13.5k Nuyen for program, the commlink and its upgrades (which are usable to set up a very decent running 'link, as well) for +6 dice. Ceramic bone lacing at the minimum costs 9k more, gives 2 dice less and additionally costs essence, which is a finite ressource.
So yeah. You don't need to be good at math to see that there's something wrong with this picture.

For these reasons, a lot of people either ignore the pool inflation or rule that empathy software on both sides cancels each other out.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Mar 7 2013, 04:23 PM) *
Empathy 6 with Optimization 3 will run at full power on a DV 3 commlink, and a heck of a lot cheaper than buying a commlink powerful enough to run it otherwise.


Cannot optimize Empathy Software... smile.gif
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