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All4BigGuns
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 7 2013, 07:45 PM) *
Cannot optimize Empathy Software... smile.gif


Tried pointing that out, and I just got a "read the relevant book" remark. AFTER quoting the passage stating what program types can take options (just because the Empathy Software is in a different book than Program Options).
Novocrane
You don't need to optimise it. Just run it on a peripheral node. Cybereyes, sensor module, etc. with a jacked up System.

QUOTE
Since the operating systems of peripheral nodes are far more limited and focused, their System rating is not restricted by the Response rating, as is the case with standard nodes. In other words, the System rating of peripheral nodes may exceed Response rating without penalty.
Glyph
The trouble with shoehorning all of the software options from Unwired into limiting empathy software is that it is sensor software specifically stated to be able to run in "standard trideo/video cameras". And insisting that you need expensive commlinks for it runs into the logical problem that you can get the same results from a cheap toy.

Even if you do that, it only takes it out of the realm of normal people - it doesn't do anything to hold back PCs, who will typically get a super-modded commlink anyways, for securing their PAN, team communications, and tacnets. The problem isn't furbies giving you a +6 bonus, it is the software, period, giving you a bonus that is so far out of scale with any other bonus - it is the equivalent of max-rated tailored pheromones and max-rated kinesics, combined. The supernatural power of glamour, which makes people shower the character with awed adulation, gives half of the bonus that you can get from empathy software. Empathy software is to SR4 what the mnemonic enhancer was to SR3, only perhaps even more unbalancing - in an area that already has vague rules for its effects, and far too many modifiers that stack.
Falconer
At which point I reiterate my earlier point...it's a problem in SR4 in general.

Why all this outrage at a piece of software which will cost thousands of dollars, on top of a commlink that will cost over 10,000 to run it.

When I can get a rating 6 medkit for peanuts in comparison.


Medkit okay? Expensive commlink running it not? Furbies most definitely not (at the same price as the medkit)!

I agree the furbies low base price and cost and stacking is a problem. I don't agree with the outrage against empathy in particular... as it's only one example out of many endemic to SR4. By this scale... people who read tacnets with the most expansive reading to give a bonus to EVERYTHING on the list instead are getting an outright steal.

I can simply think of more and bigger problems than just the empathy... all based on the SR4 relative dice pool sizes.


KarmaInferno
Hmm...

How would folks think about stuff like Empathy Software and MedKits providing a team bonus, like another PC assisting you, rather than the flat DP boost?

They'd roll their own dice, and any successes get added to your dice pool.



-k
Falconer
KI:
At this point I think the horse has already left the barn... no need to close the door now. Put simply, equipment and how it functions and interacts with skills & attributes is being changed in SR5. The topic now is much ado about nothing.


While your idea to treat autopickers, medkits, tacnets, etc. etc. etc. (there are a lot of them in the game) as teamwork tests has some merit. It also has serious problems... if the 'kit' glitches a teamwork test on 6 dice?
artent
I was hoping that there was some obscure forum post from a developer about this. It almost felt like an incomplete sentence that was left unfinished by accident...I could have seen it saying....adds 6 dice to all social tests...involving judge intentions, or something far more limited.

I am considering using the house-rule that every NPC has empathy software at their comlinks response rating, but since this is for Missions characters I don't feel I can ban something that is clearly not disallowed.
Medicineman
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Mar 7 2013, 09:28 PM) *
Hmm...

How would folks think about stuff like Empathy Software and MedKits providing a team bonus, like another PC assisting you, rather than the flat DP boost?

They'd roll their own dice, and any successes get added to your dice pool.



-k

grinbig.gif
I just wanted to post that we Use Emotisoft and Emotitoys in our Groups but only with Teamwork Test (Each Success of the Software gives +1 Die capped by the Skill of the User) and don't consider them OP or Imba

with an OK Dance
Medicineman
All4BigGuns
QUOTE (Medicineman @ Mar 7 2013, 11:15 PM) *
grinbig.gif
I just wanted to post that we Use Emotisoft and Emotitoys in our Groups but only with Teamwork Test (Each Success of the Software gives +1 Die capped by the Skill of the User) and don't consider them OP or Imba

with an OK Dance
Medicineman


If someone bothered buying it in my group, I'd rule it just as it is. There's no real problem with it, just a bunch of people griping about it because they gripe about everything CGL does.
SpellBinder
Never had a problem with it either. Just remember the line, "what the players can do, so too can the NPCs." Your player face abusing the Empathy software? Guess what, so does Mr. Johnson.
hermit
QUOTE
If someone bothered buying it in my group, I'd rule it just as it is. There's no real problem with it, just a bunch of people griping about it because they gripe about everything CGL does.

Oh, it's feeling persecuted time again.
Mach_Ten
just to adda logistics point to this debate ...

books say it can be in stalled in Standard Trideo/Video cameras .. doesn't mention covert cams and cyber-eyes or comms

so without inferrence that it could be used elsewhere, you end up with the following reply to any social interaction.

"get that camera outta my face chummer or i'll give you a new essence hole !" instantly the opponent has negative modifiers to counter your software bonus.

as for the Toy's .. but unless you are a 12 year old with that furrby, then any johnson worth his salt is gonna do 2 things

check for bugs and put a bullet in the furrby
or
have a signal jammer / white noise generator that will negate the use of it in those circumstances.

it's just not worth getting caught trying to use that shit.
_Pax._
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Mar 7 2013, 04:05 PM) *
"Honey, does this Dress make my ass look fat?" < = you lie or you die . .

Funny. When asked that question I don't lie, and I'm not dead. My point of view is, "if you don't want the truth, don't ask me". Luckily for me, my g/f's POV is the same.

Not arguing with your point, just the way you chose to illustrate it. smile.gif
_Pax._
QUOTE (Mach_Ten @ Mar 8 2013, 04:12 AM) *
books say it can be in stalled in Standard Trideo/Video cameras .. doesn't mention covert cams and cyber-eyes or comms

So the cameras are two hundred meters away. Huzzah, telephoto lenses!

Besides which, that kind of nitpickery is what I call "rules lawyering of the worst sort". In the 2070s, Cybereyes pretty much are "standard cameras".

QUOTE
as for the Toy's .. but unless you are a 12 year old with that furrby, then any johnson worth his salt is gonna do 2 things

check for bugs and put a bullet in the furrby
or
have a signal jammer / white noise generator that will negate the use of it in those circumstances.

The Johnson pulls a gun at a meet, and there're going to be more bullets going into HIM, than into my drone/pet.

The jammer won't work either, since I'm in my Steampunk outfit, complete with miniature (and fire-breathing) Steampunk Dragon ... emotitoy. Which so happens to be hard-wired to my vest. Which is in turn Skinlink modified. And that can't be jammed without tazing me ... which brings us back to the Johnson getting the bullets, not me or my toy.

Thirdly? My g/f takes a stuffed animal with her to the movies, the mall, pretty close to everywhere. smile.gif
Cain
QUOTE (All4BigGuns @ Mar 7 2013, 09:43 PM) *
If someone bothered buying it in my group, I'd rule it just as it is. There's no real problem with it, just a bunch of people griping about it because they gripe about everything CGL does.

There's something seriously wrong with emotoys being cheaper and easier to run than the empathy software itself.

QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Mar 7 2013, 09:44 PM) *
Never had a problem with it either. Just remember the line, "what the players can do, so too can the NPCs." Your player face abusing the Empathy software? Guess what, so does Mr. Johnson.

Yes, but that leads to dice pool inflation across the board. The buckets-o-dice problems have been well discussed, and emotoys just make it worse.
Thanee
QUOTE (All4BigGuns @ Mar 8 2013, 06:43 AM) *
There's no real problem with it, just a bunch of people griping about it because they gripe about everything CGL does.


Of course, there is a problem with it. It's stupidly broken. And that's Empathy Software. Not even going into Emotitoys, there isn't even a word to describe how stupid those are.

Just compare it with other social bonuses, like Tailored Pheromones, or Kinesics, or whatever, and what kind of investment you have to make for those.

6 extra dice for all social tests for the neglectible cost is simply too much.

The Teamwork Test works a lot better. It is still very good then (and close to a must-have due to the low cost).

Bye
Thanee
bannockburn
QUOTE (All4BigGuns @ Mar 8 2013, 06:43 AM) *
There's no real problem with it, just a bunch of people griping about it because they gripe about everything CGL does.

You know, for someone who complains so often about being insulted, you're doing an awful lot of sweeping, and very much insulting generalizations.
The thing is, you can actually criticize without being a hater or whiny brat. The world is not as black and white as you make it out to be.
For example: I like some things the company does, and I don't like others. No one is perfect, but a +6 toything doesn't make the people behind CGL bad persons, nor bad game designers. The overall system actually does work, contrary to such minor points.
Actually: Criticism helps to make a product or person better. IF you are willing to take it, that is
Mach_Ten
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Mar 8 2013, 09:33 AM) *
So the cameras are two hundred meters away. Huzzah, telephoto lenses!

Besides which, that kind of nitpickery is what I call "rules lawyering of the worst sort". In the 2070s, Cybereyes pretty much are "standard cameras".


The Johnson pulls a gun at a meet, and there're going to be more bullets going into HIM, than into my drone/pet.

The jammer won't work either, since I'm in my Steampunk outfit, complete with miniature (and fire-breathing) Steampunk Dragon ... emotitoy. Which so happens to be hard-wired to my vest. Which is in turn Skinlink modified. And that can't be jammed without tazing me ... which brings us back to the Johnson getting the bullets, not me or my toy.

Thirdly? My g/f takes a stuffed animal with her to the movies, the mall, pretty close to everywhere. smile.gif


point.

but surely adding S/W that you use for social or other interaction needs some form of DNI above just installing cyber eyes ?

maybe even a skillsoft suite ? .. I don't know all the rules here. just throwing ideas

okay so he's not gonna pull a gun, but he's going to be instantly on the defensive and suspect it for what it is, negating the bonus for sure and
if it was me, refuse to do business with your group. that uses such obvious ploys

I mean .. tailored pheromones I can handle and expect even, but trying to out-cute me with that gizmo biggrin.gif

and not wanting to call your g/f into question but ... does it give her any extra social dice ? nyahnyah.gif
_Pax._
QUOTE (Thanee @ Mar 8 2013, 04:38 AM) *
Of course, there is a problem with it. It's stupidly broken. And that's Empathy Software.

I disagree that the software itself is "broken". The very fact that you need a higher-end commlink to run it at more than R2 or R3, is a limiting factor.

But you could always limit it to R3 or R4 maximum, if you like.

QUOTE
Not even going into Emotitoys, there isn't even a word to describe how stupid those are.

IMO, only because they're too cheap; the cost could stand to be significantly higher. Also, see above about limited ratings; limit the toys even further (R1 or R2 only, perhaps).
Mach_Ten
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Mar 8 2013, 10:01 AM) *
Also, see above about limited ratings; limit the toys even further (R1 or R2 only, perhaps).


Hmmm, am i wrong in saying that you are limited in modifiers to the skill rating

i.e. I only have Ettiquette 2, so my rating 6 emo-toy only gives me bonus 2 ??
_Pax._
QUOTE (Mach_Ten @ Mar 8 2013, 04:56 AM) *
point.

but surely adding S/W that you use for social or other interaction needs some form of DNI above just installing cyber eyes ?

Nope.

Cybereyes are wireless capable (though I generally tend to switch that function off, while adding skinlink, for signals security reasons, myself). They serve as both the camera, and the display.

You already need "somethign else", in the form of a commlink to run the software (or one of the toys to run it).

QUOTE
okay so he's not gonna pull a gun, but he's going to be instantly on the defensive and suspect it for what it is, negating the bonus for sure and
if it was me, refuse to do business with your group. that uses such obvious ploys

Eh, negate the bonus, no. Refuse to negotiate, maybe - but then, "Alright then, have it your way. Go find someone else do do the job - bye!"

QUOTE
I mean .. tailored pheromones I can handle and expect even, but trying to out-cute me with that gizmo biggrin.gif

It doesn't have to be cute.

QUOTE
and not wanting to call your g/f into question but ... does it give her any extra social dice ? nyahnyah.gif

Well, keep in mind, she hasn't got an emotitoy, it's just a stuffed animal. And she treats it like an outfit accessory.

But, in some places, and with some people? Yes, I'd say it does. At Arisia (annual Science Fiction convention, every January in Boston), for example, she's earned a reputation for being someone who regularly gives things, usually stuffed animals, to all and sundry as she wanders the halls (she's constantly buying new ones, and has to "thin the herd" every year or two - I insist, because Ilike having room to walk around our house, hehehe). This year, it was roses ... made of duct tape and bamboo skewers, in a riotous array of colors ... literally, no two of the 300+ of them were identical.



QUOTE (Mach_Ten @ Mar 8 2013, 05:05 AM) *
Hmmm, am i wrong in saying that you are limited in modifiers to the skill rating

i.e. I only have Ettiquette 2, so my rating 6 emo-toy only gives me bonus 2 ??

I believe you're thinking of a limit like that for the "Improved Ability" Adept power, where the bonus dice from that ability is limited to one-half of the skill rating.

And that would make another decent option to limit the impact of empathy software, too.
Thanee
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Mar 8 2013, 11:01 AM) *
I disagree that the software itself is "broken". The very fact that you need a higher-end commlink to run it at more than R2 or R3, is a limiting factor.


Yeah, so R5 is easily available at the start, bad enough. It's way cheaper than other social modifier gear. And does not cost Essence or requires Magic. And it is better. And legal.

QUOTE
But you could always limit it to R3 or R4 maximum, if you like.


Sure, but that does not change how the rule is written. wink.gif

QUOTE
IMO, only because they're too cheap; the cost could stand to be significantly higher. Also, see above about limited ratings; limit the toys even further (R1 or R2 only, perhaps).


Yeah, reasonable cost and reasonable Rating (1, max 2) would be ok.

But as it stands it is R6 for 600¥ and readily available. Including the five-figures, Availability 16 hardware you need to run the Empathy software at that level. wink.gif

Bye
Thanee
Thanee
Here's a comparison of some gear/abilities that offer bonuses to all (in person) social tests:

Tailored Pheromones 1-3 -> 0.2 Essence + 15,000¥ per +1 to all social tests, illegal
Enhanced Pheromone Receptors 1 -> 0.1 Essence + 5,000¥ per +1 to all social tests, disadvantage vs Tailored Pheromones
Enhanced Pheromone Receptors 3 -> 0.05 Essence + 7,500¥ per +1 to all social tests, disadvantage vs Tailored Pheromones
Kinesics 1-3 -> 0.5 Magic (Quality required) per +1 to all social tests
Empathy Software 3 -> 500¥ per +1 to all social tests PLUS 617¥ per +1 to all social tests for a Novatech Airware with System 3
Empathy Software 5 -> 500¥ per +1 to all social tests PLUS 1,900¥ per +1 to all social tests for a Hermes Ikon with Response 5 upgrade and System 5
Empathy Software 6 -> 500¥ per +1 to all social tests PLUS 3,000¥ per +1 to all social tests for a Hermes Ikon with Response 5+6 upgrade and System 6, Availability 16
Emotitoy 6 -> 100¥ per +1 to all social tests


Empathy Software should be 5,000¥ per Rating and offer +1 to all social tests for half its Rating (rounded up), or work like a Teamwork test; full Rating for Judge Intentions.

Emotitoys should be 1,000¥ and be Rating 1 (fixed); adding 1 to the runner's Notoriety, if the roll results in a Glitch. wink.gif

Bye
Thanee
Mach_Ten
QUOTE (Thanee @ Mar 8 2013, 11:27 AM) *
Emotitoy 6 -> 100¥ per +1 to all social tests


next kid we see in the street in Bogotá, Thanee, we are totally mugging him and stealing his Furrby !!
Stahlseele
and then you strip the software out of that thing and sell it on it's own for more.
FuelDrop
Step 3: Profit
Mach_Ten
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Mar 8 2013, 12:01 PM) *
and then you strip the software out of that thing and sell it on it's own for more.


Oh that's a WIN WIN if ever I heard one ... I get to murder an annoying toy AND profit !
Kiirnodel
I have been looking through the Sensor Software, and I'm not seeing where it allows you to run the software on a peripheral node. I mean, there are rules for networking peripheral nodes to make an "effective" commlink in Unwired (I believe, not going to look into that right now), but that would be different stats than pretending you can run any kind of software you want on a plain old camera. Here is what I found, taken directly from Arsenal. I have underlined passages and explained how I interpret them in the bullet points afterward.


QUOTE (Arsenal p. 60; Sensor Software)
With the computing power available in 2070, there’s a lot you can achieve when you hook up a dedicated sensor system to a tailored software package. The following soft ware is of particular use to shadowrunners.
QUOTE (Arsenal p. 60; Empathy (Software))
Empathy software is designed for use with standard video/trideo cameras, carefully analyzing the behavioral patterns of the subject to ascertain mood, interest, and so on.
  • Hook up a dedicated sensor system to a tailored software package - Connect sensors to a commlink running sensor software. It doesn't say that the sensors themselves have the computing power to run the Software. This does not change any of the rules already associated with software, and how software already works.
  • Designed for use with - Not to be confused with used in. The software is designed (as mentioned above) to be used with a sensor system utilizing standard video/trideo cameras. The software must still run on a computer (commlink) that is running high enough Response/System rating to run the appropriate software programs.

QUOTE (Arsenal p. 57; Emotitoy)
Emotitoys are sophisticated electronic toys programmed with empathy soft ware (see p. 60) to recognize metahuman body language and facial expressions, thus giving them a limited ability to sense emotions and react appropriately, based on their purpose.
  • limited ability to sense emotions - Emotitoys have only a limited ability to sense emotions, the power of their Empathy software is a rating of their ability to do this (dice pool).
  • react appropriately, based on their purpose - Each Emotitoy reacts in a pre-specified way, and that is all they do. They change color, make sounds, or move in ways pre-determined based on certain stimuli.



My solutions are listed below. Solution A is a clarification of the rules, while Solution B is a limitation to impose on the Emotitoys to bring them more in line with their price. A Gamemaster can choose to use these rulings (or not) if the players are taking advantage of the Empathy Software and things seem unbalanced. Using these interpretations might balance things without needing to use special house rules.

Solution A: Sensor software, while used directly with sensors, must still be run on a commlink or other computer device. Sensor software is still software, and follows the normal rules for software limitations (such as System Rating limiting Program Rating, and program load of a commlink). You must still have an appropriate commlink to run Empathy (or any sensor software) at the appropriate rating.

Solution B: Emotitoys' built-in Empathy Software is integrated hardware/software and cannot be removed or used in other devices. In addition, they cannot be integrated into a character's PAN to gain the same benefits as Empathy Software used directly through a person's commlink and sensor devices. The Emotitoy can detect emotion and can change color or make motions based on the model, but does not integrate in the same way a dedicated sensor system with sensor software. "Rule": An Emotitoy can aid a character with social tests (with its Judge Intentions for Emotional State) with teamwork, but does not add its rating to the social tests of the character.
Thanee
(RAW)-Rules for Emotitoy are very simple: "The rating of the emotitoy is the rating of its built-in empathy software."

Bye
Thanee
_Pax._
Eh.

Here's my solution, an all-in-one package deal:



Empathy Software
Adds it's rating in bonus dice to any social test, up to one-half of the user's skill rating. Cannot have any Options.

Rating 1: costs 1,000¥ with availability -
Rating 2: costs 3,000¥ with availability 4
Rating 3: costs 6,000¥ with availability 8R
Rating 4: costs 10,000¥ with availability 12F

(Rumors abound that some megacorporations, or three-letter-agencies, may have R5, R6, or even higher-rated Empathy software, for use during interrogations. To this date, however, they remain solely that: rumors.)

Emotitoys
Come with the equivalent of Empathy software built in, along with a child-friendly interface. They provide their rating in bonus ice to everyone present (they're about as subtle as an Ork go-gang at a high society wedding). Also come with a built-in Panic Button that can be set to alert the child's parents, private security, the police, or whomever the parent / owner desires (must be set up beforehand).

Rating 1: costs 750¥ with availability 5
Rating 2: costs 2,000¥ with availability 10

NOTE: these drones are nonmobile and have an effective Signal Rating of 1

... versions with limited mobility and Signal 1 cost +750¥ with a +3 availability
... versions with full mobility and Signal 2 cost +1,250¥ with a +5 availability
... bypassing the normal UI (so that it's discreet and provides it's bonus only to it's owner) requires a special modification that doubles the base price of the Emotitoy.

All other modifications cost twice the usual nuyen. The Emotitoy has only 2 slots available for modifications.



Poof. Much, much, MUCH more limited. And more expensive. And, in the case of the Emotitoy specifically, not terribly useful anymore, at all - and is either useless, or VERY expensive. And a bit hard to find, too (they're the novahot gift this year!!).

But still a viable option, for social-focussed characters. (And heck, R1 for everyone, is not unreasonable.)
Kiirnodel
QUOTE (Thanee @ Mar 8 2013, 08:56 AM) *
(RAW)-Rules for Emotitoy are very simple: "The rating of the emotitoy is the rating of its built-in empathy software."

Bye
Thanee


Is that directed at me? I addressed this in my "Solution B". The GM simply limits how an Emotitoy may be used in regard to a user's PAN. There are no specific rules anywhere in any of the books that says exactly how some devices might behave differently than others. For instance, the interface with a Smartgun is different from a drone... It is well within the GM's role to give some limitations and clarifications as to how some devices are used.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Medicineman @ Mar 7 2013, 10:15 PM) *
grinbig.gif
I just wanted to post that we Use Emotisoft and Emotitoys in our Groups but only with Teamwork Test (Each Success of the Software gives +1 Die capped by the Skill of the User) and don't consider them OP or Imba

with an OK Dance
Medicineman


If we used Emotitoys, we would do the same thing. smile.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Cain @ Mar 8 2013, 02:37 AM) *
There's something seriously wrong with emotoys being cheaper and easier to run than the empathy software itself.


Which is why at our table, those damned Emotitoys do not exist, at least not beyond the basic Furby level, which has absolutely no effect on Dice pools. smile.gif
phlapjack77
Pretty much everyone agrees with the OP's question, then. Empathy software is broken.

People's ideas are seemingly thus as to how to "fix" it.

1. Requires high-end commlinks (not really a solution, shhhh)
2. Teamwork test (winnar!)
3. Bannation (booo hiss)

Let's not speak of emotitoys, they're the survival knife of SR4...
_Pax._
QUOTE (phlapjack77 @ Mar 8 2013, 10:33 AM) *
1. Requires high-end commlinks (not really a solution, shhhh)
2. Teamwork test (winnar!)
3. Bannation (booo hiss)

4. The rules could use some tweaks.
phlapjack77
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Mar 8 2013, 11:38 PM) *
4. The rules could use some tweaks.

Yea verily, this is true
Falconer
Stahlseele:
Regards selling.... Only if you ignore the rules regarding software and running it on peripheral nodes...

If you strip the software out of the Furby you get a specially written empathy software which can only run on furbies (a specific type of peripheral node).

And it's highly likely the software may be written directly into their basic level OS/pilot which only runs on furbies.


And once again I point out the selective outrage of people here. There's tons of other tech items in the game which give similar bonuses to other skills. Why the selective outrage at one which is far more expensive than most?
bannockburn
QUOTE (Falconer @ Mar 8 2013, 06:05 PM) *
Why the selective outrage at one which is far more expensive than most?

I can only speak for myself, and I wouldn't call it 'outrage'. It's more of a bad taste for me.
Medkits, I like those. They even cost the same as MooDragon™. The reason, why I like them is that I can shoot up the players a bit and they can patch themselves up again afterwards with a little effort. Gives a sense of risk, but wounds are not gamestoppers. Also, the tables with the modifiers are easier to memorize than social situational mods.
Then we have autopickers. Costs double and modifies a very situational skill (who is using old school locks anymore? And who actually has that skill?). Of the top of my hat, I can't remember anything else. Forged keycards use their rating, against the lock, nothing else. Same goes for sequencers and similar stuff, IIRC. Yes, open doors are neat, but actual nut-and-bolt locks are rare in SR.

So, then we have social skills. They are improved with a minimum of effort for a minimal amount of money and they are (at least in my games) used very often. Also, it is an opposed test between living and probably breathing meat popsicles, not a machine or device. I actually have no big issue with the software or the emotitoys, but they just feel kind of like cheating in comparison to some of the other things Thanee and I mentioned. A very big boost to a very common situation for a rather (in case of the commlink) or very (for emotitoys) cheap investment.
Other stuff doesn't usually go that high, and usually costs a lot more in either essence or karma (see power foci).

I don't use them for my face character when I get to play, and my players don't use them either ... and we haven't even talked about the issue. So, yeah. No outrage, but a point where my players and me agree that the rules are feeling a bit off, easily solved by a gentlemen's agreement.
crazyconscript
I think part of the reason people can dislike empathy software/emotitoys giving a +6 bonus is that the field where the apply is social tests. And social interaction can play a huge part of any game. Being able to reliably convince EVERYONE you meet that you are totally the good guys and that their regular maintenance crew are on "vacation" can warp how social situations work a bit too much (somewhat silly example, but possible). Meeting with a Mr.Johnson or high-ranking underworld figure, Street Cred/Notoriety and local factors such as having an Ace-in-the-Hole or picking an intimidating meeting spot should be the largest influences upon dice pools (at least in my opinion). Having a very large easily accessible bonus to social tests can trivialise these encounters in favour of the PC's. Not in every case, but in a lot of them. Yes, NPC's can have access to the same tech as the runners, but that straight no-strings-attached +6 means that Face's can essentially get whatever the hell they want out of those on the lower end of the food chain who cant afford or don't want such a device (gangers, junkies, average BobWageslave)

Yes, pornomancers can already do this. Personally, I don't like it much but they usually have to sacrifice quite a bit to get there. Even a base dice pool of 15 is relatively high for a social encounter before factoring in encounter-specific modifiers in my mind, at least if you are thinking about interacting with PC's. But while other skills can allow you to do one thing with an NPC (kill, avoid, confuse, not get killed by among others) Social skills allow such a broad range of potentially very powerful interaction that it can seem as if it is subtracting from the game if such encounters are trivialised. If you have a +6 pool mod, players might be less inclined to actually interact with a social situtation, since by their dice alone they can potentially just "Roll Charisma=PROFIT!". Yes, GM's can mitigate this (No, the wageslave you just shot in the leg is NOT going to believe that line of bullshit you are feeding him just because you got 9 successes) but if a GM is required to do this, is that not a symptom of something being wrong with the mechanic?

So to summarise, I think a lot of feeling over social modifiers being "unbalanced" in comparison to other skills is that social interaction can be such an important part of any game that it feels wrong to trivialise it
Thanee
Not really. It is unbalanced in comparison to the investment. smile.gif

+6 is a huge modifier. That's the highest regular skill rank you can achieve in the game. Or the highest natural attribute a human can have.

Something like that should have a considerable cost.

Bye
Thanee
phlapjack77
QUOTE (Falconer @ Mar 9 2013, 01:05 AM) *
And once again I point out the selective outrage of people here. There's tons of other tech items in the game which give similar bonuses to other skills. Why the selective outrage at one which is far more expensive than most?

I don't think this is selective outrage. There's many threads where people are "outraged" about other tech / rules as well. It just so happens that THIS thread is talking about emosoft and emotoys. I mean, by your logic, we couldn't talk about anything, because as soon as we start using specifics you would complain about selective outrage.
FuelDrop
The other thing about Empathy software/Emotitoys compared to, say, medkits or Maglock Passkeys, is that while a medkit gives its bonus to 2 skills (Medicine and First Aid) and the Maglock passkey only gives it to a specific use of one skill (Hardware), Es/Et give their bonuses to a whole section of the skill list.

It might also help that medkits are easy enough to imagine, as they're basically advanced first-aid kits. Emotitoys on the other hand are hard to seriously imagine, as people automatically think "Furby" and use that as a point of reference. While it's easy to imagine a skilled medic with a first aid kit, it's far harder to imagine a skilled negotiator with a furby.
Glyph
The bonus for empathy software upsets people because it is out of proportion to the bonuses that you can get to social skills from other things. People would have the same reaction if red dot sights gave a +6 bonus.
Thanee
QUOTE (Falconer @ Mar 8 2013, 06:05 PM) *
And once again I point out the selective outrage of people here. There's tons of other tech items in the game which give similar bonuses to other skills. Why the selective outrage at one which is far more expensive than most?


Can you point out another such case?

The only one I can think of is the medkit. And that is not quite the same, as it is not "competing" with other items, that cost hundred times more.

Bye
Thanee
Cain
QUOTE (Falconer @ Mar 8 2013, 09:05 AM) *
And once again I point out the selective outrage of people here. There's tons of other tech items in the game which give similar bonuses to other skills. Why the selective outrage at one which is far more expensive than most?

Because it's too cheap for the benefit. Nothing else gives +6 dice for 600 nuyen.
FuelDrop
QUOTE (Cain @ Mar 9 2013, 07:27 PM) *
Because it's too cheap for the benefit. Nothing else gives +6 dice for 600 nuyen.

Actually... Medkits do, and the vision enhancement upgrade on glasses and the like give similar benefit to cost ratios..
Umidori
Medkits, as has been pointed out, are 1) not Opposed Tests and 2) balanced such that you NEED a high rating medkit to do any substantial amount of healing.

Likewise, Vision Enhancements 1) take up limited capacity in other equipment, scaled to rating, and 2) cap at +3 dice.

You cannot directly compare Empathy Software to either.

~Umi
Thanee
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Mar 9 2013, 12:41 PM) *
... and the vision enhancement upgrade on glasses and the like give similar benefit to cost ratios..


Well, Perception is one skill that is a bit easy to get to high dice pool levels due to all the stacking bonuses.

Esp. since it is used in opposed tests vs. Infiltration / Disguise, which are much harder to raise.

Bye
Thanee
Garvel
If the Empathy software gave only +3, it would be ok. It would still be strong and cheap, but not broken. I would be like tailored pheromones but cost much less recources. I coud live with that.
+3 dice is a big advantage in an opposed social test, but its not an autowin.
+6 dice is just ridicuous. You don't even need to bother rolling the dice if the opponent doesn't have Empathy software too. It would be no use to discuss with someone who has that annoying Emoti-Hypnotoad on his shoulders, unless you have one too. In the end you will do anything he says anyway.

If you look at the social modifiers table (p. 131 SR4A), you see that +6 is way over the top. "Character’s desired result is disastrous to NPC" gives –4 dice. Compare that to the software that gives you +6 dice. You can literally walk around and talk people into eating their pants for 1 Nuyen.

What else single gimmick does give you +6 dice for an opposed test? Hacking programs, but they substitute an attribut, and at least it is seems logical that a way better program gives you an advantage, that your opponent can't make up with better skill alone. And magical foki, but these things are supposed to be incredible powerfull, and are very expensive on both, Nuyen and karma. (And still you find enough people that say that they are unballanced.) And at least such powerfull foki don't seem unplausible once you are in "Willing Suspension of Disbelief" that magic exists.
But Empathy software is something that will probably exist in reallity one day, and all it does is give you a complete read of your opponent and some tips how to behave. This will of course give you an advantage for influencing people, but there is still a limit to how much you can influence them with those informations. If you are optimistic, "+3 modifier", the difference between Hostile (–3) and Neutral (+0), seems acceptable. But "+6 modifier", the difference between Friendly (+2) and Enemy (–4), that feels just very unrealistic. And this obviously unrealisticness impairs the atmosphere of the game for me. Of course there are many unrealisticnesses in the game, but this one is completely unnecessary.

Even if the skillratings would go from 1 to 12 instead of 1 to 6 (as planned for SR 5) , the +6 dice modifier would still be to high. It really shouldn't be better than tailored pheromones or glamor.

I would houserule it to:
"..., adding its half rating (rounded down) as a dice pool bonus to the character’s Social skill tests."
Also Emotitoys higher than rating 3 would cost rating x 500 nuyen. Also having that pet sit visibly on your shoulder will turn most NPCs from Neutral (+0) to Suspicious (–1) if you try to talk them into something.
And that would still be very generous, but at least it wouldn't feel so unrealistic.
_Pax._
QUOTE (Garvel @ Mar 9 2013, 10:11 AM) *
I would houserule it to:
"..., adding its half rating (rounded down) as a dice pool bonus to the character’s Social skill tests."

So, Rating 1, 3, and 5 are ... pretty much useless, no? Why not just double the price, and then halve the max rating, instead? Same effect, less presence of uselessness.

QUOTE
Also Emotitoys higher than rating 3 would cost rating x 500 nuyen. Also having that pet sit visibly on your shoulder will turn most NPCs from Neutral (+0) to Suspicious (–1) if you try to talk them into something.
And that would still be very generous, but at least it wouldn't feel so unrealistic.

Right. So I buy an R4 Emotitoy, install R4 Covert Ops autosoft, upgrade the onboard pilot to R4, and mod it for Chameleon Skin. Now it's rolling 8 dice to hide from you, and you're at -4 dice on your perception check to see it. And I'm still getting +4 (RAW) or +2 (your houserule) social dice.

So really, all you've done is require me to roll out the cheese, myself.

Better to make them more expensive, and limit their rating. In fact, gee, I kinda outlined an option that did just that, previously in this thread.
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