Step 3: Profit

Oh that's a WIN WIN if ever I heard one ... I get to murder an annoying toy AND profit !

I have been looking through the Sensor Software, and I'm not seeing where it allows you to run the software on a peripheral node. I mean, there are rules for networking peripheral nodes to make an "effective" commlink in Unwired (I believe, not going to look into that right now), but that would be different stats than pretending you can run any kind of software you want on a plain old camera. Here is what I found, taken directly from Arsenal. I have underlined passages and explained how I interpret them in the bullet points afterward.

• Hook up a dedicated sensor system to a tailored software package - Connect sensors to a commlink running sensor software. It doesn't say that the sensors themselves have the computing power to run the Software. This does not change any of the rules already associated with software, and how software already works.
• Designed for use with - Not to be confused with used in. The software is designed (as mentioned above) to be used with a sensor system utilizing standard video/trideo cameras. The software must still run on a computer (commlink) that is running high enough Response/System rating to run the appropriate software programs.

• limited ability to sense emotions - Emotitoys have only a limited ability to sense emotions, the power of their Empathy software is a rating of their ability to do this (dice pool).
• react appropriately, based on their purpose - Each Emotitoy reacts in a pre-specified way, and that is all they do. They change color, make sounds, or move in ways pre-determined based on certain stimuli.

My solutions are listed below. Solution A is a clarification of the rules, while Solution B is a limitation to impose on the Emotitoys to bring them more in line with their price. A Gamemaster can choose to use these rulings (or not) if the players are taking advantage of the Empathy Software and things seem unbalanced. Using these interpretations might balance things without needing to use special house rules.

Solution A: Sensor software, while used directly with sensors, must still be run on a commlink or other computer device. Sensor software is still software, and follows the normal rules for software limitations (such as System Rating limiting Program Rating, and program load of a commlink). You must still have an appropriate commlink to run Empathy (or any sensor software) at the appropriate rating.

Solution B: Emotitoys' built-in Empathy Software is integrated hardware/software and cannot be removed or used in other devices. In addition, they cannot be integrated into a character's PAN to gain the same benefits as Empathy Software used directly through a person's commlink and sensor devices. The Emotitoy can detect emotion and can change color or make motions based on the model, but does not integrate in the same way a dedicated sensor system with sensor software. "Rule": An Emotitoy can aid a character with social tests (with its Judge Intentions for Emotional State) with teamwork, but does not add its rating to the social tests of the character.

(RAW)-Rules for Emotitoy are very simple: "The rating of the emotitoy is the rating of its built-in empathy software."

Bye
Thanee

Eh.

Here's my solution, an all-in-one package deal:



Empathy Software
Adds it's rating in bonus dice to any social test, up to one-half of the user's skill rating. Cannot have any Options.

Rating 1: costs 1,000¥ with availability -
Rating 2: costs 3,000¥ with availability 4
Rating 3: costs 6,000¥ with availability 8R
Rating 4: costs 10,000¥ with availability 12F

(Rumors abound that some megacorporations, or three-letter-agencies, may have R5, R6, or even higher-rated Empathy software, for use during interrogations. To this date, however, they remain solely that: rumors.)

Emotitoys
Come with the equivalent of Empathy software built in, along with a child-friendly interface. They provide their rating in bonus ice to everyone present (they're about as subtle as an Ork go-gang at a high society wedding). Also come with a built-in Panic Button that can be set to alert the child's parents, private security, the police, or whomever the parent / owner desires (must be set up beforehand).

Rating 1: costs 750¥ with availability 5
Rating 2: costs 2,000¥ with availability 10

NOTE: these drones are nonmobile and have an effective Signal Rating of 1

... versions with limited mobility and Signal 1 cost +750¥ with a +3 availability
... versions with full mobility and Signal 2 cost +1,250¥ with a +5 availability
... bypassing the normal UI (so that it's discreet and provides it's bonus only to it's owner) requires a special modification that doubles the base price of the Emotitoy.

All other modifications cost twice the usual nuyen. The Emotitoy has only 2 slots available for modifications.



Poof. Much, much, MUCH more limited. And more expensive. And, in the case of the Emotitoy specifically, not terribly useful anymore, at all - and is either useless, or VERY expensive. And a bit hard to find, too (they're the novahot gift this year!!).

But still a viable option, for social-focussed characters. (And heck, R1 for everyone, is not unreasonable.)

Is that directed at me? I addressed this in my "Solution B". The GM simply limits how an Emotitoy may be used in regard to a user's PAN. There are no specific rules anywhere in any of the books that says exactly how some devices might behave differently than others. For instance, the interface with a Smartgun is different from a drone... It is well within the GM's role to give some limitations and clarifications as to how some devices are used.

If we used Emotitoys, we would do the same thing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Which is why at our table, those damned Emotitoys do not exist, at least not beyond the basic Furby level, which has absolutely no effect on Dice pools. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Pretty much everyone agrees with the OP's question, then. Empathy software is broken.

People's ideas are seemingly thus as to how to "fix" it.

1. Requires high-end commlinks (not really a solution, shhhh)
2. Teamwork test (winnar!)
3. Bannation (booo hiss)

Let's not speak of emotitoys, they're the survival knife of SR4...

4. The rules could use some tweaks.

Yea verily, this is true

Stahlseele:
Regards selling.... Only if you ignore the rules regarding software and running it on peripheral nodes...

If you strip the software out of the Furby you get a specially written empathy software which can only run on furbies (a specific type of peripheral node).

And it's highly likely the software may be written directly into their basic level OS/pilot which only runs on furbies.


And once again I point out the selective outrage of people here. There's tons of other tech items in the game which give similar bonuses to other skills. Why the selective outrage at one which is far more expensive than most?

I can only speak for myself, and I wouldn't call it 'outrage'. It's more of a bad taste for me.
Medkits, I like those. They even cost the same as MooDragon™. The reason, why I like them is that I can shoot up the players a bit and they can patch themselves up again afterwards with a little effort. Gives a sense of risk, but wounds are not gamestoppers. Also, the tables with the modifiers are easier to memorize than social situational mods.
Then we have autopickers. Costs double and modifies a very situational skill (who is using old school locks anymore? And who actually has that skill?). Of the top of my hat, I can't remember anything else. Forged keycards use their rating, against the lock, nothing else. Same goes for sequencers and similar stuff, IIRC. Yes, open doors are neat, but actual nut-and-bolt locks are rare in SR.

So, then we have social skills. They are improved with a minimum of effort for a minimal amount of money and they are (at least in my games) used very often. Also, it is an opposed test between living and probably breathing meat popsicles, not a machine or device. I actually have no big issue with the software or the emotitoys, but they just feel kind of like cheating in comparison to some of the other things Thanee and I mentioned. A very big boost to a very common situation for a rather (in case of the commlink) or very (for emotitoys) cheap investment.
Other stuff doesn't usually go that high, and usually costs a lot more in either essence or karma (see power foci).

I don't use them for my face character when I get to play, and my players don't use them either ... and we haven't even talked about the issue. So, yeah. No outrage, but a point where my players and me agree that the rules are feeling a bit off, easily solved by a gentlemen's agreement.

I think part of the reason people can dislike empathy software/emotitoys giving a +6 bonus is that the field where the apply is social tests. And social interaction can play a huge part of any game. Being able to reliably convince EVERYONE you meet that you are totally the good guys and that their regular maintenance crew are on "vacation" can warp how social situations work a bit too much (somewhat silly example, but possible). Meeting with a Mr.Johnson or high-ranking underworld figure, Street Cred/Notoriety and local factors such as having an Ace-in-the-Hole or picking an intimidating meeting spot should be the largest influences upon dice pools (at least in my opinion). Having a very large easily accessible bonus to social tests can trivialise these encounters in favour of the PC's. Not in every case, but in a lot of them. Yes, NPC's can have access to the same tech as the runners, but that straight no-strings-attached +6 means that Face's can essentially get whatever the hell they want out of those on the lower end of the food chain who cant afford or don't want such a device (gangers, junkies, average BobWageslave)

Yes, pornomancers can already do this. Personally, I don't like it much but they usually have to sacrifice quite a bit to get there. Even a base dice pool of 15 is relatively high for a social encounter before factoring in encounter-specific modifiers in my mind, at least if you are thinking about interacting with PC's. But while other skills can allow you to do one thing with an NPC (kill, avoid, confuse, not get killed by among others) Social skills allow such a broad range of potentially very powerful interaction that it can seem as if it is subtracting from the game if such encounters are trivialised. If you have a +6 pool mod, players might be less inclined to actually interact with a social situtation, since by their dice alone they can potentially just "Roll Charisma=PROFIT!". Yes, GM's can mitigate this (No, the wageslave you just shot in the leg is NOT going to believe that line of bullshit you are feeding him just because you got 9 successes) but if a GM is required to do this, is that not a symptom of something being wrong with the mechanic?

So to summarise, I think a lot of feeling over social modifiers being "unbalanced" in comparison to other skills is that social interaction can be such an important part of any game that it feels wrong to trivialise it

Not really. It is unbalanced in comparison to the investment. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

+6 is a huge modifier. That's the highest regular skill rank you can achieve in the game. Or the highest natural attribute a human can have.

Something like that should have a considerable cost.

Bye
Thanee

I don't think this is selective outrage. There's many threads where people are "outraged" about other tech / rules as well. It just so happens that THIS thread is talking about emosoft and emotoys. I mean, by your logic, we couldn't talk about anything, because as soon as we start using specifics you would complain about selective outrage.

The other thing about Empathy software/Emotitoys compared to, say, medkits or Maglock Passkeys, is that while a medkit gives its bonus to 2 skills (Medicine and First Aid) and the Maglock passkey only gives it to a specific use of one skill (Hardware), Es/Et give their bonuses to a whole section of the skill list.

It might also help that medkits are easy enough to imagine, as they're basically advanced first-aid kits. Emotitoys on the other hand are hard to seriously imagine, as people automatically think "Furby" and use that as a point of reference. While it's easy to imagine a skilled medic with a first aid kit, it's far harder to imagine a skilled negotiator with a furby.

The bonus for empathy software upsets people because it is out of proportion to the bonuses that you can get to social skills from other things. People would have the same reaction if red dot sights gave a +6 bonus.

Can you point out another such case?

The only one I can think of is the medkit. And that is not quite the same, as it is not "competing" with other items, that cost hundred times more.

Bye
Thanee

Because it's too cheap for the benefit. Nothing else gives +6 dice for 600 nuyen.

Actually... Medkits do, and the vision enhancement upgrade on glasses and the like give similar benefit to cost ratios..

Medkits, as has been pointed out, are 1) not Opposed Tests and 2) balanced such that you NEED a high rating medkit to do any substantial amount of healing.

Likewise, Vision Enhancements 1) take up limited capacity in other equipment, scaled to rating, and 2) cap at +3 dice.

You cannot directly compare Empathy Software to either.

~Umi

Well, Perception is one skill that is a bit easy to get to high dice pool levels due to all the stacking bonuses.

Esp. since it is used in opposed tests vs. Infiltration / Disguise, which are much harder to raise.

Bye
Thanee

If the Empathy software gave only +3, it would be ok. It would still be strong and cheap, but not broken. I would be like tailored pheromones but cost much less recources. I coud live with that.
+3 dice is a big advantage in an opposed social test, but its not an autowin.
+6 dice is just ridicuous. You don't even need to bother rolling the dice if the opponent doesn't have Empathy software too. It would be no use to discuss with someone who has that annoying Emoti-Hypnotoad on his shoulders, unless you have one too. In the end you will do anything he says anyway.

If you look at the social modifiers table (p. 131 SR4A), you see that +6 is way over the top. "Character’s desired result is disastrous to NPC" gives –4 dice. Compare that to the software that gives you +6 dice. You can literally walk around and talk people into eating their pants for 1 Nuyen.

What else single gimmick does give you +6 dice for an opposed test? Hacking programs, but they substitute an attribut, and at least it is seems logical that a way better program gives you an advantage, that your opponent can't make up with better skill alone. And magical foki, but these things are supposed to be incredible powerfull, and are very expensive on both, Nuyen and karma. (And still you find enough people that say that they are unballanced.) And at least such powerfull foki don't seem unplausible once you are in "Willing Suspension of Disbelief" that magic exists.
But Empathy software is something that will probably exist in reallity one day, and all it does is give you a complete read of your opponent and some tips how to behave. This will of course give you an advantage for influencing people, but there is still a limit to how much you can influence them with those informations. If you are optimistic, "+3 modifier", the difference between Hostile (–3) and Neutral (+0), seems acceptable. But "+6 modifier", the difference between Friendly (+2) and Enemy (–4), that feels just very unrealistic. And this obviously unrealisticness impairs the atmosphere of the game for me. Of course there are many unrealisticnesses in the game, but this one is completely unnecessary.

Even if the skillratings would go from 1 to 12 instead of 1 to 6 (as planned for SR 5) , the +6 dice modifier would still be to high. It really shouldn't be better than tailored pheromones or glamor.

I would houserule it to:
"..., adding its half rating (rounded down) as a dice pool bonus to the character’s Social skill tests."
Also Emotitoys higher than rating 3 would cost rating x 500 nuyen. Also having that pet sit visibly on your shoulder will turn most NPCs from Neutral (+0) to Suspicious (–1) if you try to talk them into something.
And that would still be very generous, but at least it wouldn't feel so unrealistic.

So, Rating 1, 3, and 5 are ... pretty much useless, no? Why not just double the price, and then halve the max rating, instead? Same effect, less presence of uselessness.


Right. So I buy an R4 Emotitoy, install R4 Covert Ops autosoft, upgrade the onboard pilot to R4, and mod it for Chameleon Skin. Now it's rolling 8 dice to hide from you, and you're at -4 dice on your perception check to see it. And I'm still getting +4 (RAW) or +2 (your houserule) social dice.

So really, all you've done is require me to roll out the cheese, myself.

Better to make them more expensive, and limit their rating. In fact, gee, I kinda outlined an option that did just that, previously in this thread.