Think about this for ten seconds.

The basic assumptions of the rules in the core book are going to be based off of the things published in that book.

So, therefore, that which is not in the core book is not necessarily required to be reflected by the rules.

Not using a specific set of expansion rules is much easier than explaining to players that you've fully rewritten the Matrix section's basic assumptions because the game designers were high when they wrote them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

You first.



Fixed that for you.

... Bullshit. Pure and utter bullshit. You're not modifying the rules of the matrix, which have to work whether or not there's a technomancer involved, you're saying 6 words. That's it. That's all you're doing. Nothing else.



The point is more that the -4 to Social Skill tests allows you to get the TM benefits of high Charisma while being socially inept.



Generally, the term referred to psychopathy and anti-social personality disorder, of which being extremely charismatic is a highly consistent element. Sociopath does/did not mean socially inept or uncharismatic.



So, having options is a bad thing now? The more programs there are, the more options there are liable to be to approach a given situation, which is a good thing. It is a lot to remember (I like to keep a summary reference on hand for such things, as a memory aid), but the flexibility of being able to get any of those programs at any time is part of what makes technomancers powerful.

Once again, reading comprehension is helpful.

The rules of the matrix have design parameters set by what game actions are expected to be taken within that context. The existence of technomancers, and the fundamental conditions of the Matrix necessary for them to be a relevant archtype, have wider consequences on those rules than just the existence of technomancers.


That said, I realize they're not going anywhere, and therefore have long since settled for going the same route as previously developed for people wanting to play ghouls in games I run. 'No.' is a very useful word.

I comprehend just fine. You happen, however, to be wrong. As the matrix rules have to work just as well whether or not there's a technomancer in the group, they would not change appreciably for the removal of technomancers.

Edit : Oh, you edited, and you still don't get it. That makes more sense.

The matrix rules have to account for the conditions required for a technomancer to function. So, for example, for technomancers to work as written, a wireless Matrix is necessary. This puts limitations on ways the Matrix rules can be put together.

Is any of this getting through to you at all?

And AT NO POINT EVER will those rules presume that there MUST be a Technomancer present. In fact, they have to be designed so that they work when there isn't a Technomancer present.

Your objection - the presumption that Technomancers even being a core option means that the Matrix has to work in a fundamentally different manner, is nonsense, gobbledygook, folderol, pure bullshit.


Bullshit. There are no "fundamental conditions of the Matrix necessary for" Technomancers, which are not equally necessary for Deckers. None. At all.






Chicken-or-the-egg.

If the Matrix was Wired-only, then we'd simply have Otaku: technomancers with datajacks. Or trodes, perhaps. Oh wait, in SR3, that's precisely what we had! Funny how that works.

...so you would rather have a Matrix-centric archetype that would work within both Wired and Wireless Matrix with relatively minor alterations when moving between the two...

...and bringing back the Wired Matrix is a viable option because...?

Completely discounting, of course, that Technomancers (unlike Otaku) lose Resonance for having a datajack due to being a kludge of trying to force the magic systems rules into a matrix context. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

... which in turn has precisely zero effect on the Matrix rules themselves. And in a Wired-only environment, perhaps Technos would not have lost Resonance for datajacks, encephalons, and other "hooked directly to the brain" cybernetics.

Also, as I already mentioned: Trodes. Not all man-machine interfaces cost Essence.

I think folks are hung up on the details of particular archetypes.

There's no reason the details HAVE to be the same.

At their base, deckers and technomancers represent one hacker who does the job with gear, and another that does it with force of will. As long as those base ideas are kept, everything else can be changed if they need to.


-k

That's true, Karma.

But there's a couple folks here who owuld like the "does it with force of will" archetype to disappear entirely. I believe one phrase used was "Die in a fire", in fact.

Ah. So you're under the delusion that the wireless matrix exists only because of technomancers, or that the presense of technomancers somehow precludes wired-isolated systems - this is not the case. The rules even account for such things at present.

Fun fact: All a technomancer has to do to get access to a wired only system is plug something into it that's wireless. If the facility is listening for wireless emissions and throwing up an alarm in such cases, you use the skinlink echo.

You may not like the wireless Matrix, but technomancers are in no way the cause the things you don't like about it. The wireless Matrix exists because we already have nigh-ubiquitous wireless and thus, in order to stay relevant to the modern day, Shadowrun must have wireless.

For reference: Read the fiction on Unwired page 129. It describes an absolutely zero-wireless facility where you must surrender all wireless devices to gain access. This is the opening to the technomancer chapter. So if you think completely non-wireless facilities are not a possibility in the rules as they stand, it is not my reading comprehension that is insufficient.

Outside the Matrix...though admittedly better than nothing



Which is exactly what I wrote, thankyouverymuch. Also note that the charming guy who successfully deceives everybody may be the standard media treatment of the topic, but not necessarily the standard epidemiology. Brazenly lying is a criterion, being particularly good at it is not.


How exactly is "X can only be countered by Y" an option? The acting user has options, the reacting user only has the option of knowing the right answer (beforehand for hackers, immediately for TMs) or having his pants down.

"Here's how to build a viable [X]" -> fringe case

Wow.

You complain that an optimized techomancer with paladin sprites soaks matrix damage as well as an optimized troll soaks bullets?
YES. Both are fringe cases. Welcome to the real world, Mr. Anderson.

Wow.

"Technos are terrible and non-viable" -> "this fringe case isn't" -> "that fringe case is broken in the other direction" -> "everything is fine"

We get it, you don't like Technomancers, and like I said, neither do I really, but others do, and the character type shouldn't be removed as a choice for them just because we don't like them.

Fugging elle.

I'm advocating for a rewrite of their mechanics, but everyone insists that they're fine.

When I point out that they're not fine people accuse me of trying to write them out of existence.

I give up.

...ok, how about this:

If they rewrite the mechanics to the point where you not only could have a TM and a decker on your team, but you WANT to have both on your team, and neither outclass or outshine each other (unless if one has higher Karma than the other) and complement each other well, I think that will do nicely.

And everyone will come out with big, tusky smiles. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

This suggests a serious bias against them which can prevent suggestions which are good for the character type to function.

Part of the problem is that you're arguing from what I would contend is a false premise - specifically, that they're not viable. Generally, I'd say technomancers are a good deal more powerful than mundane hackers once you get some Karma going, and in a way that it isn't possible for mundanes to catch up with through nuyen. The flipside of this, however, is it's way easier to make the mundane more than just the Matrix guy, and far more difficult to do the same with the Techno. And, due to starting costs, it's easy to wind up with a technomancer that's weaker without really knowing how they work.

That said, they HAVE to re-write technomancer mechanics. If you used the current mechanics with an attribute+skill Matrix, they'd by terrible.

Well, a Logic Stream Technomancer would be pretty good...

Much like traditions and Drain Attributes, they've all got their advantages. Combat-hacker or AR-rigger style technomancers are best off with Intuition to feed initiative. Logic technomancers can take some serious advantage of 'ware for Fade resistance and Logic-linked bonuses. Charisma streams get to make more extensive uses of sprites and cross into being secondary faces very easily - and the elf charismancer is nicely Fading efficient in its own right.

1-Yes
2-Yes
3-Both
4-No

I do think that a gamesystem should prevent every types of overpowered characters. (unless it's style is Epic and you face the same kind of opposition).