It will be really interesting to see how dev handles her life in a corp and being a shadowrunner. For now it works well, but I doubt that will last forever. One mistake and she likely has to decide between the corp and her parents or Shadowrunning.
Or she needs to get herself and her family extracted. It would be kinda funny seeing her teach her parents how to survive in the real, non corp world.

Something to think about, she's 17 at present. Give or take a few months. She's going to be 18 soon, and as an elf, a legal adult. Now, I'm not touching on sex, but she's going to soon be in a position to choose the next 'stage' of her life.

She's spoken of the educational testing in the corps and how you're pegged extremely young as to how far and which way you'll go. I think we can agree with the level of hacking skills she has (( Out hacking Glitch and other experienced Deckers in many different books)) That the corp assessment tests would have put her in accelerated classes and technology based education.

Does Dev go to college? If so, where? Corp College or does she bust out and go to MIT&T? Or CalTech? If so does this open her up to life out side the corp? Does she say 'frak it' and just bail as soon as she hits 18, to make a life for her self?

Interesting questions that are rapidly approaching for the NPC.

Considering how "well" they handled a long weekend off the Vegas Strip...

I'm sorry. You started a thread that used the words "Breast Fairy" in the first post. I don't think that you have much of a point of perspectiive on feminist issues or how a female might feel about how their gender is being portrayed.

Says the woman who confuses "I dislike these characters" with "it's a sexist writeup". The world is not all about you, no matter how privileged your upbringing may have been.

And if you cannot see the massive anatomical problems in Chernik's cover, you must have issues with the eyes. It might be a large piece of wood.

My wife thought the breast fairy comment was funny. *chuckles* Her exact reply was "Oh her? yeah she came around two or three extra times for me."

*Clears throat* I'm not complaining.

I can't speak for women. (( ANY Women)), but my wife thought it was funny, not demeaning.

I actually didn't confuse that at all, I'm merely admitting that my opinion on sexism is my own. I don't understand how an assumption on my upbringing which you know nothing of is relevant here?

And Echo's work does have flaws but they are far less taxing on my eye and I would imagine other eyes than other SR artists. I find that her work is more visually appealing and that her characters, including women, are far more believable and interesting. I care for her work despite the issues, so sue me.

Exactly my point. I do not expect anyone else to agree with me, every person and woman's opinion is different but there is at least one (and from other things I've been reading many more) that find discussion like this sexist and rude. I don't ever want to seem like I'm speaking for more than myself but I doubt I am not alone in my feelings.

All of us are sexist and rude or ... just mentions of Breast fairies?

Cuz.. I'll reiterate, I never had gender being important in the overall points I've made. yes she's female so we're talking about a female, but were it Dev/boi, my points would be the same.

I'm just glad we moved past /derp/grrl. Bull did us all a HUGE favor when he started her character rehabilitation. Mind you, she was ... 13? Maybe 12 (!) when SR4 started, so, being on Jackpoint at that age, she's gonna have issues, but.

And I appreciate that your opinion would be the same. Seriously. The facts are that your wife, and you and most males haven't had the experiences that sensitize someone to knee jerk when threads like this have started. It's simply what it is. Right or wrong it is what it is, I just wish people would remember that there are women that read this forum that are sensitive to things like this, and it does nothing to enchance their love of the game.

You keep bringing up your upbringing, so yeah, it seems to have some relevance here. And you said that: "I simply find the male characters in current canon to be far more interesting and realistic than the female ones, especially runners", as a follow-up to what exactly makes presented characters sexist. Which is your personal taste (which you've got all right to have, it's just not a viable argument for your cause, at all). Hence it seems to me you confuse your personal taste and sexism here.

Chernik's SR work has actually consistently annoyed me with her women always running into battle with at least 3, usually 4 or 5, kill spots eposed that SHOULD be covered. I like her style, but it's usually too pin-up for (my idea of) SR character art - which would be 'I'd like to use this as a character image'. She has done some great pieces, Bunraku being my favourite, of course, but especially her covers are just not what I'd want. And her stuff is certainly not less stripperific than the average SR art.

As for the piece - the two girls could be posted on EscherGirls and not look out of place.

There's the organ-less body and dislocated leg/hip, combat tights and a fantastically un-combat pose (magican, clearly first conceived with only the upper body, with the rest being an afterthought) of the mage, and the sniper, whose butt appears in a place where it just should not. Both have excessively and anormally bent backs, since that was so important to your - if you've ever lied down and made a side shot, you'd see how that position can only be consciously achieved, or by lying down in a very uncomfortable manner. (The male characters suffer from massive anatomy faliures too, but that's not the issue here.) And that's not even going into the problems of the helicopter (a bad photoshop work if I ever saw one) or the city of R'Lyeh in the background, where every building has it's own peculiar focal point.

You're welcome to like the art. You're not welcome to claim it's issues aren't there, and are less bad than other works you ripped apart. Because that simply is not true.


You really like your brushes broad, don't you.

I really don't think the thread is what you think that it is, is what I'm saying. You're taking offense where none was meant and trying to make it out like "Well if Dev was a boy this would never come up" Many here have said "Yes it would... her being a girl isn't what we're talking about. The character being young and growing up into a shadowrunner is what we're discussing. regardless of gender."

It's not a matter of being female, or sensitive to things. I'm plenty sensitive to sexist stuff. I just don't think this is a sexist issue. Yeah Dev is a girl but that's not the part we're discussing.

I'm sorry if you're offended, but speaking for myself, and most of the others here, I do -not- think that they meant anything, the way you are taking it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

Let me start by apologizing: I'm the guy that started the shitfest. I saw Can's post this morning, tried to ignore it, and then read this post on Tumblr. It kind of lead into a post on Tumblr, in which I made my feelings fly.

Which, let me quote:


And you know what? Fuck it. I stand by my thoughts.

It's not cool to sexualize a teenager. Which is basically what you did with that first post there, Canray. Yes, it was intended as a joke, but even a joke can offend someone. And it offended me - little ol' me, who's a straight white, male thirty something, happily married to his equally straight wife, who has friends and family that range the complete alphabetical spectrum.

To the guy that said, "Hey! My wife laughed!": Cool. Now run that very same quote past someone that identifies MTF or FTM and see what they think. Or a gay person. Who someone who's had trauma in their childhood. See what they think about it.

Because as much as we gamers would like to pat ourselves on the back and tell ourselves that we're equal, that we're cool with everybody, that we welcome all - fuck no we don't. That's the little white lie at the end of the gamer rainbow. Not as a hobby, not as a tribe, and in large segments, not on an individual level.

We exist in a hobby that frequently marginalizes people that are not us - male, white, straight, thirty something year old dudes that played roleplaying games in our basements or libraries or whatnot. We don't want people in. We want more people like us. Now be on the other side of that; be the person who doesn't fit into any of those categories. Be a girl and find some artwork that doesn't consist of your gender in something skimpy, looking for a male to save them (or be Sarah Conner from the Terminator). Be a gay person and find a homosexual signature character. Be trans and look for a book that doesn't condemn being intersexed, or looking for re-assignment surgery as "radical" or "too weird for my game". Be a rape victim browsing a gaming message board and trying not to get freaked out when you read something about "Bubba the Love Troll" or "raping those dudes."

Now tell yourself, "yup, we're welcoming."

(The examples I'm sure the bunch of you are just burning to give me are the exceptions that prove the rule, trust me. Exalted is very gay / trans friendly. Eclipse Phase too. Again: exceptions to the rule.)

As it stands? I feel ashamed to even bring my wife - the very same person that ya'll are harping on right now - into a gaming store. You know why? She's meat. She's someone worthy of objectifying - of proving to that you're virile and strong and creative and smart, when all she wants is to spend ten dollars and get some dice for our game the next week. Her last real trip in, she got accosted by a dude who insisted on telling her all about how clever and smart he was, choking a dragon with a Decanter of Endless Water.

That is the heart of the issue I have with that post, this discussion, and to be honest? With Shadowrun in general lately. We're all - and I'm not counting myself out here, I have my own problems - into these imaginary worlds that we claim as "our own" that we're not willing to let people in. Yes, it sucks you can't use language you'd like to use. Yes, it sucks that someone's going to call you out when you use ojbectifying material to discuss a game. But guess what? Grow up. Learn from it. Listen to what that person is saying, and see what message they're trying to give you.

When I can't even look at the "Images That Make You Think Shadowrun" thread on the official boards because every other picture is a half-naked or semi-naked girl straddling a gun that would make Cable (of the X-men) blush, there's a fskin' problem, okay? What woman is going to want in on this hobby when that's what they're first presented with? When are we going to see half-naked guys wearing thongs making out with other dudes, or hell, Male Human / Male Troll love? It's a thing! If we're really going to be "equal opportunity", then brace yourself guys, because you're going to see that, and so much more. It won't be something I'll be looking for, but someone else will, and that's the point of "fairness".

But of course, I'm making this shit up. The game is just full of positive role models for women, transfolk, gayfolk, abuse victims, etc, etc. I'm just being one lone guy screaming on the internet. Right? Because that's how you're going to justify this thread's existance.

If this is my last post on Dumpshock, then cool - let this be, as Crimsondude once put it, me dropping the mike on the stage and walking off.

You know, I've been in this hobby now for 33 years. I've been to a lot of game stores all over this fair land of ours, and while I've seen a few of the miscreant, socially-stunted types you've described, they're the exception to the rule by a huge margin.

You seem to have a quality-control issue where you are, and I'm sorry to hear that, but in my experience, it's also your issue, not one of the hobby in general.

I'd hate to see you and your wife leave over this, but it's pretty clear that your mind isn't going to be changed. And that's cool. But it's also not our problem; it's yours. I wish you both all the best.

Well seeing as we've been a part of the role playing hobby for a very long time and experienced it in MANY cities and conventions I doubt we are the only ones who have ever experienced this.

I would challenge anyone who thought I was out of line in my thinking to spend a day at a convention in my body or the body of one of my female friends. It would truly be eye opening. It's different when you are a woman. As a man you simply aren't going to experience the same thing as a woman does. No matter how long you have been in the hobby.

Also: I read the teaser for your Lydia fiction. It was good, I like her and would love to read more.

I have absolutely no doubt that you're right about this, nor any delusions that this is in any way specific to the hobby.

That is, however, an issue that cannot be addressed in the slightest by content. It's a problem with certain people (both in and out of the hobby), and no matter how well done the content is in terms of things like gender issues those people will continue to be there. There's a certain amount conventions and such can and should do at the policy level, sure, and perhaps more that various FLGS's should do to establish a more welcoming space. But I don't think it's fair to try to say that the problem is at the feet of the freelancers. Nor do I think it's fair to accuse someone of sexualizing a teenage character simply because they made a joke to the effect that said character is growing up while making the specific point that that is not the subject of the conversation.

I never have brought up my upbringing. I'd love to know what you are referring to. The only information I've disclosed is that I went to a well known art school which has no bearing on my upbringing. You actually know nothing of my upbringing or life experiences. EX. You don't have to be rich or well bred to get into an prestigious school if you are good enough.

I am sorry if you felt like I was saying that there weren't issues there. I simply find her work to be more believable than many others. There are issues there but they are more visually believable. I don't know how many times I can say that or how many different ways I can. I also find the confidence in her women to outweigh the T&A. They are empowered.

You're presuming ALOT here Ravensmuse.



1) No. He said ASIDE from anything having to do with the breast fairy. As in, speaking of things OTHER than sexualizing the character.

What about it actually "Offended" you?



Hate to break it to you, but you're not some great hope of alternate gender or sexual identities there. My wife is female, but she also finds females attractive. My best friend is a gay female. I showed her, after this thread started getting roudy and she laughed and complained the breast fairy didn't visit her ENOUGH. I have not at this point ran it by any transgender people, but that's because I'm chilling at home and don't have any one speed dial. I know one but he's at a hockey event right now. As for someone who's had trauma in childhood. yes. One of the two previously mentioned also falls into that catagory.

You're speaking for yourself but not for everyone. Of the "Well here, run it by these other people" I've got you covered on most and they were not only fine, but they laughed. Lighten up a bit.



That's well and good, but do you seriously think canray was some how trying to crack on women with that small statement??

Again. Speak for yourself man. The only people the people I play with marginalizes, are idiots or assholes. We don't care if you're male, female, both or neither, white, black or green. (( I prefer green)) I Role played with my 12 year old this weekend and tonight I'm Role playing with a 40 year old bisexual woman.



Much of that you can find. I'm right there with you on lil idiots using 'rape' in the fashion you're mentioning but still. It's not quite the world you're putting out there. Are there less homosexual signature characters? Yes, but they are a minority you know. Are there less transexual characters? Yes, but again, you're discussing a group that IRL is signifigantly smaller. Shadowrun has a character that has been both male and female. Plan 9 said not only has he done it, but others should try it. he had a blast.

We are welcoming. My group anyway. Most of the ones I've played with since I was 14 love new players. Perhaps the groups you've played with aren't. And for that... well that sucks man. But don't pain me with the asshole brush because you've met some. There's jerks all over the world.



I think you're mistaking low numbers or representation with some sort of hate. The fact is most people go though their day to day lives and never meet a transsexual. Some will go their entire lives with out meeting one. I have a friend that is. he's cool. No worries but I'm not going to claim I know tons. Noone really does. There's not that many out there, to have significant market share or even signifigant numbers TO be represented.


All I can say is, that's your issue man. My wife goes to gaming stores. My ex girlfriend did. Many of the people I play with are women. They all go to gaming stores.

LOL That's ---not--- a gender thing man. People hanging out in Gaming stores will do that to males, females or slow moving animals. Can women attract attention in game stores? Sure, so can guys. I can't tell you how many 100s of times I've had some dude start up with that sort of thing with me. And I'm not even attractive.


Who here isn't letting people in??

Conversely, don't look for insult where none is meant. I've worked with women's shelters, and abuse hotlines. My wife works with the salvation army as a youth councler and rec center manager. We donate time and money both. I've repeatedly helped rape victims.

I'm plenty sensitive to sexist comments and the like. Looking for a fight where none is being picked is just as bad as picking the fight on sexist grounds.


Maybe on THAT board with THOSE people. Are any of the people here one's posting such images? Or are we getting vented at, for other people's actions? Most of the people I play with aren't first presented with forums boards image threads. They're handed the book or see the books in stores.


There's plenty of thong wearing dudes in Role playing. (Well Loin cloths)

I'm sure it is a thing, but how many other romantic sorts of interactions are you seeing in Shadowrun?

I for one, think that if it fits the story, the writers will include it. I don't think it's some how being excluded as a sort of bias. Of all the Runners that we've seen, I know of like three couples off the top of my head. One being Slamm-0! and Netcat, one being Kane and Kat, and the last being Ghostcrawler and his spirit mate.

Am I missing tons and tons of couples, that some how by their inclusion is some how excluding other pairings?



There's lots of females in Shadowrun that are treated, as best I can tell, like the men, except in glaring cases, where it's in world stuff. Even those are few and far between. Noone tells Hard Exit to shut up and get back to the kitchen. Noone tells Picador that running a merc company is for men. There's at least the one transgender.

It's not that you're one guy screaming on the net, but it's a bit touching that you're attacking us, making up a defense for us, and then discounting the defense you've made up for us. lol

People are allowed to disagree with you with out being against what you're saying.



Well that'd be very dramatic. I can't speak for others but I hope you don't leave. The more the merrier. I also hope your wife doesn't leave.

Again I can disagree with both of your takes on this thread with out wanting you out. I just very simply think offense was taken where none was meant and now you're defending your wife (( an urge I very much understand)) and she's defensive because people didn't agree with her take on it.

Nothing more what so ever.

I respect your opinion PJ and the others in this thread to, even if it doesn't seem that way. This distills down to the fact that there are many different experiences out there and that Dumpshock is one small section of the role playing world that is largely male dominated. That's just the facts of it. Another fact is that the majority of the writers of SR have and are male and that there are things distinctly female that seem to be lacking from *MY* perspective.

My only point in this is that there are women out there that read these forums and *I* personally found this thread offensive based on my experience as a female in the gaming hobby. I've gone to conventions for many years and used to be part of larger role playing and cosplay circles and have stories that are pretty hard to retell. That's merely *MY* experience. I'm standing up for the fact that things like forcing a character into an emotional breakdown and the phrase "Breast fairy" offend me and I don't think I'm the only female on the face of the earth that would find that offensive.

All I'm asking is please think of others from time to time. I don't have all the time in the world to devote to posting or even reading Dumpshock, but it seems like more times than not when I do get time to read it, I do seem to read things that are very male-centric. Nothing more, nothing less.

I respect your views and perspective.



I'm very sorry you found offense in the thread. Speaking only for myself, no offense was meant.



For the record. *Raises hand* I'm the one that said she should not have a full break down. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)



Of that I have no doubt. I just don't think he was aiming for offense or mean anything offensive by it. Infact it appeared to me that he was trying to keep the conversation away from that sort of thing.



I'm sorry to hear that. I read alot of stupid crap on here. I just take the bad with the good and understand I'm online where idiots can roam free.

I hope you and your husband stay. You've both had interesting comments during my time here. I don't always agree, but if we all did agree the world would be a boring place. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

As to the whole emotional breakdown thing, I'm of the opinion that a character of /dev/'s background should have a very difficult time with the aftermath of killing someone for the first time. Sex/gender is in no way, shape, or form an element. It's not women being portrayed as having a harder time with killing that's a problem, in my mind, as it is men being portrayed as having an easier time with it; the solution is to have a greater number of more accurate portrayals rather than the opposite. In fact, if it's handled well, I could see one of the male Jackpointers sharing the story of his first kill and how he dealt with the same sort of aftermath as a way to try to help her through it - while also providing for a nice balance on the gender point.

Mind you, having a hard time dealing with it shouldn't be an immediate emotional breakdown - the trauma of it wouldn't set in for some time, and isn't strictly speaking likely to take the form of an emotional breakdown so much as a stress disorder.

And while I certainly don't have any desire to diminish the fact that you were offended by the "Breast Fairy" joke, it's also clear that many weren't; there is a difference between a statement that offends someone versus a statement that is offensive. The former offends only because of what the particular person brings into the conversation, while the latter offends because that is its very nature. It is impossible to know in advance what might fall into the former category, and avoiding a joke because there's a (often remote) possibility it might fall into the former category may, in my view, be giving certain things far more power than they should be allowed to have.

Don't pretend like this is localized to gaming. You must be exhausted at the attitude of pretty much all of recorded history.


I read something awhile ago about it being "freeze, flight, or fight...in that order". Freeze in the hopes the predator won't notice you, and so on.

I also have a reputation for posting like Slamm-0! (who a lot of people have stated that they think is an "Author Avatar" for me), and that I specifically stated that "aside" from that, dwelling into the matter that I wished to get away from the "what size is her bust" (which was referenced in Turbo Bunny's write-up, BTW), and such sexist statements while also including an injection of humor into the OP.Let me go find my original post.There we are. Well, as I stated above, the word "aside" is in there, meaning I wished to move away from that aspect, and towards the more cerebral aspects of /dev/grrl's character. Mainly, moving her away from "/derp/grrl", and making her a character that people would be happy to see posting and giving opinions and ideas, as well as still asking questions that are because of her sheltered background and not coming off as a retard, which she had been for quite a number of books.

Bull and I have worked a fair bit on empowering /dev/grrl so that she can be a positive role model for young girls in the game: A teen, female, and still able to hold her own with a bunch of grizzled Shadowrunners from walks of life that she only knows through journeys outside of her sheltered Corporate lifestyle with her parents. We've talked about it, planned things, and so on.

I could comment on the number of items you've stated in your post that offended me, and quite a number of them did far more than my joke probably did, however, this is neither the time nor the place for it.

Thank-you to everyone who came to my defense, it is greatly appreciated. I thought I was quite clear enough in my statements to ensure that I didn't intentionally offend people. Maybe I wasn't. I think I'll go show it to my Feminist family members (some of whom were storming the male hierarchy bastions in the 1950s) and see what they think. I may, or may not, post the responses. Again, not the right place.

Now that I've vented, and thanked the people who jumped to my defense, let us get back on-topic before the Admins come down on us with banhammers a-gleaming. If there are any more issues such as this, again, not the time nor place. PM for that kind of stuff. Thank you.

I'm new here, so my words won't carry a lot of weight- but let me put my thoughts here anyway.

I used to do MMA. Not UFC, pretty MMA with good fighters, skill and massive cash prices, but the kind of MMA that straddles the line of "illegal pit fight". Drunks, hobos, and want to be badasses are the order of the day, and if you can find a more testosterone filled environment, you would literally choke on it.

Now, my wife is a small woman, about 5'8 and 110 pounds soaking wet. She games with us, having run in every game we've had for the last 5 years. (in fact, its how we became friends at all).

She is also way more bothered by jerks at game stores* and con's** than at the MMA meets. Consider that: in a room made mostly of drunk failures, cocky braggarts, fools, junkies and bikers, she dislikes going to buy dice and RPG books than walking into a sleazy strip club. The reason isn't the average (because almost all gamers aren't nearly as messed up as the average patron of a dive bar), but the exceptions, and the lack of anyone else who will step in.

The exceptions are accepted by most gamers: WE are the geeks, and because of that WE defend out own. No, you shouldn't tell your gaming buddy to stop staring at the girls butt for 20 minutes, despite the fact that in a bar, you would. No, you shouldn't go tell the guy to take a hike when the girl he's talking looks likes she wants to run away.

I don't know about over-sexualization of Shadowrun, and to be honest, I don't really care all that much. I like boobs, and pictures of boobs, and yeah, I imagine that's not a terribly socially healthy attitude. But its not really something I care about. Still and all, google "gen con photos" and count the males, and then try and tell me gaming doesn't over sexualize women. I counted 2 men in the first 2 rows, and one of those was standing next to a hot chick.

To say that the gamer culture is healthy towards women is silly. If it was, wouldn't you think gaming groups would be 50% women (or even 20%?). Can you say they are? Can you ever say, personally, that yours have been? How many people can say the know any 100% female groups? The ultimate answer to why the average little girl (who loved fantasy and LoTR too) doesn't play tabletop games is simple: the culture isn't accepting enough. And that means the average, white thirty somethings are the problem, because they sure aren't the ones fixing it. And I know well that when my wife is in a game store, looking at comics or whatever, theres a decent chance some jerk will walk over and annoy her until she punchs him in the dick.

It sucks, but its an easy fix. Just be the guy who tells him to go find something to do, just like you would if you saw it at a bus stop.

*I should mention Dragon's Lair in Austin TX as a *huge* exception to this
** And I should really note that Gen Con was terrible 2 years ago for this, considering in the first day we had two friends stalked for over four hours by a trio of teenagers. A great scenario of what happens when no one simply says " Dude, you're being creepy. Chill out"
***Time to note I'm not just calling out Patrick on this, just he had the best quote to respond too.

EDIT: Just saw CanRay's Post, and Ill agree with his last part about going back on topic. Not sure what the etiquette is on self-editing to prevent flame stuff, so I'll leave it up for now.