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Cain
post Apr 26 2013, 08:54 AM
Post #26


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I can relate what one GM did when we used Movement on a fast car. I successfully got the car to go Mach 4.6. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

The GM used the Rocket Booster rules from Arsenal to handle the stress to the vehicle.

I like the thought that the momentum is magically handwaved away, though. That way, the vehicle takes no Handling penalties, and can't be used as a super-ram. Unfortunately, by my reading of RAW, a target of Movement increases his actual speed, not relative. So you can do the super-ram with Movement.
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Stahlseele
post Apr 26 2013, 09:11 AM
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now use movement on a heimdall drone.
presto, cheapish self made thor shot!
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Apr 26 2013, 05:54 PM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Apr 26 2013, 03:11 AM) *
now use movement on a heimdall drone.
presto, cheapish self made thor shot!


Not really... The Drone just does not have the Mass to generate the energy of a Thor Shot upon impact. Even assuming that you do not generate enough friction (in atmosphere, obviously) to melt it at that speed. *shrug*
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WhiskeyJohnny
post Apr 26 2013, 06:15 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 26 2013, 11:54 AM) *
Not really... The Drone just does not have the Mass to generate the energy of a Thor Shot upon impact. Even assuming that you do not generate enough friction (in atmosphere, obviously) to melt it at that speed. *shrug*


That depends on what velocity is achievable with the drone (velocity being a much larger factor than mass in the energy equation). And, assuming the drone remains cohesive enough as it reaches it's kill velocity, its being a molten hunk of slag by the point of impact won't be too much of an issue.
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Neraph
post Apr 26 2013, 07:46 PM
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QUOTE (WhiskeyJohnny @ Apr 26 2013, 12:15 PM) *
That depends on what velocity is achievable with the drone (velocity being a much larger factor than mass in the energy equation). And, assuming the drone remains cohesive enough as it reaches it's kill velocity, its being a molten hunk of slag by the point of impact won't be too much of an issue.

That reminds me of a funny snippet I read years back about a can of soup versus a Star Destroyer at different velocities. I can't find it now, however.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Apr 26 2013, 08:11 PM
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QUOTE (WhiskeyJohnny @ Apr 26 2013, 12:15 PM) *
That depends on what velocity is achievable with the drone (velocity being a much larger factor than mass in the energy equation). And, assuming the drone remains cohesive enough as it reaches it's kill velocity, its being a molten hunk of slag by the point of impact won't be too much of an issue.


30,000 FPS x 200 pounds is vastly inferior to 30,000 FPS x 5000 Pounds when it comes to energy output. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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WhiskeyJohnny
post Apr 27 2013, 12:41 AM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 26 2013, 02:11 PM) *
30,000 FPS x 200 pounds is vastly inferior to 30,000 FPS x 5000 Pounds when it comes to energy output. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


True enough, but I bet 25 Heimdalls are easier to get one's hands on than a Thor shot, and probably cheaper to boot.
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KarmaInferno
post Apr 27 2013, 02:35 AM
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QUOTE (Neraph @ Apr 26 2013, 02:46 PM) *
That reminds me of a funny snippet I read years back about a can of soup versus a Star Destroyer at different velocities. I can't find it now, however.

Here you go.



-k
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Shaidar
post Apr 27 2013, 06:04 AM
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Hey Tymeaus Jalynsfein where do you get 30,000 FPS and 5,000 lbs for a Thor Shot?
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Apr 27 2013, 09:53 PM
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QUOTE (Shaidar @ Apr 26 2013, 11:04 PM) *
Hey Tymeaus Jalynsfein where do you get 30,000 FPS and 5,000 lbs for a Thor Shot?



Well, there are a lot of sources/speculation of what such a system would look like.

However, the Rod From God travels at orbital Velocities, attaining speeds within the atmosphere greater than 9km/Second (creaing a Plasma Sheath around the vehicle on reentry). The weight of the vehicle is dependant upon how much energy you want to impart at the target location. I have seen theoretical data raging from "Crowbar" sized multi-pack kill weapons (like a Cluster Bomb) to 9+ Ton Tungston Rods.

Here is a snippet from Popular Science.

QUOTE
This technology is very far out—in miles and years. A pair of satellites orbiting several hundred miles above the Earth would serve as a weapons system. One functions as the targeting and communications platform while the other carries numerous tungsten rods—up to 20 feet in length and a foot in diameter—that it can drop on targets with less than 15 minutes’ notice. When instructed from the ground, the targeting satellite commands its partner to drop one of its darts. The guided rods enter the atmosphere, protected by a thermal coating, traveling at 36,000 feet per second—comparable to the speed of a meteor. The result: complete devastation of the target, even if it’s buried deep underground. (The two-platform configuration permits the weapon to be “reloaded” by just launching a new set of rods, rather than replacing the entire system.)

The concept of kinetic-energy weapons has been around ever since the RAND Corporation proposed placing rods on the tips of ICBMs in the 1950s; the satellite twist was popularized by sci-fi writer Jerry Pournelle. Though the Pentagon won’t say how far along the research is, or even confirm that any efforts are underway, the concept persists. The “U.S. Air Force Transformation Flight Plan,” published by the Air Force in November 2003, references “hypervelocity rod bundles” in its outline of future space-based weapons, and in 2002, another report from RAND, “Space Weapons, Earth Wars,” dedicated entire sections to the technology’s usefulness.

If so-called “Rods from God”—an informal nickname of untraceable origin—ever do materialize, it won’t be for at least 15 years. Launching heavy tungsten rods into space will require substantially cheaper rocket technology than we have today. But there are numerous other obstacles to making such a system work. Pike, of GlobalSecurity.org, argues that the rods’ speed would be so high that they would vaporize on impact, before the rods could penetrate the surface. Furthermore, the “absentee ratio”—the fact that orbiting satellites circle the Earth every 100 minutes and so at any given time might be far from the desired target—would be prohibitive. A better solution, Pike argues, is to pursue the original concept: Place the rods atop intercontinental ballistic missiles, which would slow down enough during the downward part of their trajectory to avoid vaporizing on impact. ICBMs would also be less expensive and, since they’re stationed on Earth, would take less time to reach their targets. “The space-basing people seem to understand the downside of space weapons,” Pike says—among them, high costs and the difficulty of maintaining weapon platforms in orbit. “But I’ll still bet you there’s a lot of classified work on this going on right now.”
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DMiller
post Apr 29 2013, 12:51 AM
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I don't have much to say about the speed, but if my calculations are correct you are a bit off on the mass.

According to War! page 160 a Thor missile is a tungsten rod 0.5m by 12m, total volume of 9.429 m^3
According to this web site tungsten has a mass of 19,280 kg/m^3
Putting a Thor Missile at 181,791.1 kg or 400,780.8 lbs

I think the energy output from this rod will be much higher than you think it is. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

All I can say is OUCH, being hit by 182 metric tons moving at any speed would suck. Of course so would launching 12 of those into space. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Oh and by the way, I love the Shadowrun math and research department. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

*edit: Just a note, according to my research we currently do not have the ability to place even one Thor Missile in orbit, let alone the standard satellite full of them.
*edit2: If my back of the napkin math is close (based on 30,000fps) the total energy output from a single Thor missile will be 7,600,000 TJ, which is about 3.5 times the total energy released from all world-wide nuclear testing as of 1996 (see this wiki for my energy numbers).
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kzt
post Apr 29 2013, 04:47 AM
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The developer was promised "There will be no math in Shadowrun" to get him to take the job. So they just make stuff up. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Modular Man
post Apr 29 2013, 11:00 AM
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QUOTE (DMiller @ Apr 29 2013, 01:51 AM) *
[...] 7,600,000 TJ [...]

Oh well, now that is some big energy output.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Apr 29 2013, 02:43 PM
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QUOTE (DMiller @ Apr 28 2013, 06:51 PM) *
I don't have much to say about the speed, but if my calculations are correct you are a bit off on the mass.

According to War! page 160 a Thor missile is a tungsten rod 0.5m by 12m, total volume of 9.429 m^3
According to this web site tungsten has a mass of 19,280 kg/m^3
Putting a Thor Missile at 181,791.1 kg or 400,780.8 lbs

I think the energy output from this rod will be much higher than you think it is. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

All I can say is OUCH, being hit by 182 metric tons moving at any speed would suck. Of course so would launching 12 of those into space. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Oh and by the way, I love the Shadowrun math and research department. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

*edit: Just a note, according to my research we currently do not have the ability to place even one Thor Missile in orbit, let alone the standard satellite full of them.
*edit2: If my back of the napkin math is close (based on 30,000fps) the total energy output from a single Thor missile will be 7,600,000 TJ, which is about 3.5 times the total energy released from all world-wide nuclear testing as of 1996 (see this wiki for my energy numbers).


I was relaying the mass on the Tungston rods (from the article). Because I have seen so many variations of weight, it is hard to pin down exact metrics on the theoretical application of such a weapon. Yes, the damage output gets to be extreme, there is no doubt, especially for the 182 Metric Ton Tungsten rod. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Nominally, the output should be in the several kiloton range for what is described in Shadowrun. Not sure what the payload weight for that is (5-10 Tons probably), but it does not really matter all that much to me. It is sufficient to vaporize a 1/4 Mile diameter impact zone, with additional (heavy) damage out to another 200 Meters or so beyond that in all directions. Not sure why that needed actual stats. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Cain
post Apr 30 2013, 04:19 AM
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To get slightly back on topic, what would happen if a Spirit used Movement on an incoming THOR shot? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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kzt
post Apr 30 2013, 04:26 AM
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QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 29 2013, 10:19 PM) *
To get slightly back on topic, what would happen if a Spirit used Movement on an incoming THOR shot? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

It becomes a lot harder to intercept is clear. It quite possibly misses the target by many KMs if it's ballistic, but who the hell knows as the people who write the rules clearly have almost no world building skills or much of an imagination.
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DMiller
post Apr 30 2013, 04:26 AM
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QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 30 2013, 01:19 PM) *
To get slightly back on topic, what would happen if a Spirit used Movement on an incoming THOR shot? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Using SR physics, not much... using real physics... split the planet?
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