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DMiller
All,

Does anyone have RAW references about how the spirit movement power affects handling of vehicles? The question came up in our last session, as a long term player/GM I remember there not being any change to handling or crash tests, but I can't find anything in the books about it.

We are playing 4th edition, but even a reference from an earlier edition would work as I have most of the books. I did search on Dumpshock for a thread about this, but after 6+ pages of looking I couldn't find an answer.

Thanks all.
Mantis
It won't change vehicle handling at all but it could very well increase the threshold for vehicle tests as you are moving at a faster speed. Trying to pull off a certain stunt at speed usually has a higher threshold. Take a look at the vehicle thresholds on pgs 168-169 SR4A.
kzt
The original version of movement (in Predator and Prey) had explicit notes that the critter controlling it could use it to cause bad things to happen to the target. Those have totally vanished from the 3rd and 4th edition. As far as I can tell, the idea seem to be that there are no negative effects on the target. Essentially, under a F6 movement and driving at 100 MPH you are treated for all intents and purposes as if you are driving at 100 MPH, not at the better part of Mach 1.
DMiller
QUOTE (kzt @ Apr 22 2013, 01:15 PM) *
The original version of movement (in Predator and Prey) had explicit notes that the critter controlling it could use it to cause bad things to happen to the target. Those have totally vanished from the 3rd and 4th edition. As far as I can tell, the idea seem to be that there are no negative effects on the target. Essentially, under a F6 movement and driving at 100 MPH you are treated for all intents and purposes as if you are driving at 100 MPH, not at the better part of Mach 1.

This is how we've always played it, but I was hoping for something in black-and-white. smile.gif
Shaidar
SR3's Movement (SR3 pg 265)
QUOTE
MOVEMENT
Type: P • Action: Complex • Range: LOS • Duration: Sustained
The being may use the Movement power to increase or decrease a target’s movement rate within the terrain it controls by multiplying or dividing the target’s movement rate by the being’s Essence.
When the Movement power is used on vehicles, the critter makes an Essence Test with a target number equal to half the vehicle’s Body. Multiply the successes by the vehicle’s Acceleration Rating and add the result to or subtract it from the vehicle’s Speed in the next Combat turn (similar to the vehicle making an Acceleration or Deceleration Test). The critter may continue making Essence Tests to increase or decrease the vehicle’s speed each Combat Turn it sustains the Movement power. Depending on the situation, this change in speed may call for a Crash or Stress Test.


QUOTE
Speed
Speed is the reasonable high-end maximum velocity of the vehicle.
Drivers can accelerate past this, but they encounter difficulties in pushing their vehicles to go faster while still maintaining control. The gamemaster should apply modifiers as she feels appropriate.
Speed is expressed in meters per Combat Turn.


I'd say using an SR4 Vehicle Test would seem appropriate and by the book. Exceeding the vehicles Speed attribute should increase the Threshold of maneuvers attempted by 1 for each Running Rate multiple increase above the Speed. I'd go so far as to use the Running rate acceleration times the Force as the maximum that a vehicle can withstand before it gets ripped apart by the un-natural acceleration.

[insert Mythbusters JATO rocket booster clip here]
DMiller
QUOTE (Shaidar @ Apr 22 2013, 02:25 PM) *
I'd say using an SR4 Vehicle Test would seem appropriate and by the book. Exceeding the vehicles Speed attribute should increase the Threshold of maneuvers attempted by 1 for each Running Rate multiple increase above the Speed. I'd go so far as to use the Running rate acceleration times the Force as the maximum that a vehicle can withstand before it gets ripped apart by the un-natural acceleration.

Thanks Shaidar.

The only problem I see with your suggestion is that the speed attribute on most vehicles is a multiple (usually x4 (from the main book)) of the "running" acceleration. I actually suggested to the GM to use Force/2 (round down) as the threshold modifier, but with no maximum "because Magic".
Shaidar
I meant for the modifiers and damage threshold to come into effect after the vehicle exceeds the Speed Rating of the vehicle.

OR we could substitute the Vehicles Body in place of force for calculating the upper speed threshold that a vehicle can withstand.

(Running rate x Body) + Speed Rating

So a Dodge Scoot (Scooter) with a rated Speed of 60 m/ct could handle a max speed of 120 m/ct before taking damage, while a GMC Banshee (Thunderbird) with a rated Speed of 1,000 m/ct could sustain Speeds up to 6000 m/ct.

Magic should have it's limits, just not the same ones as mechanics.
DMiller
QUOTE (Shaidar @ Apr 24 2013, 10:34 AM) *
I meant for the modifiers and damage threshold to come into effect after the vehicle exceeds the Speed Rating of the vehicle.

OR we could substitute the Vehicles Body in place of force for calculating the upper speed threshold that a vehicle can withstand.

(Running rate x Body) + Speed Rating

So a Dodge Scoot (Scooter) with a rated Speed of 60 m/ct could handle a max speed of 120 m/ct before taking damage, while a GMC Banshee (Thunderbird) with a rated Speed of 1,000 m/ct could sustain Speeds up to 6000 m/ct.

Magic should have it's limits, just not the same ones as mechanics.

Ahh, that makes sense. Thanks for the clarification. I may suggest this to our group. smile.gif
Neraph
QUOTE (Shaidar @ Apr 23 2013, 08:34 PM) *
I meant for the modifiers and damage threshold to come into effect after the vehicle exceeds the Speed Rating of the vehicle.

OR we could substitute the Vehicles Body in place of force for calculating the upper speed threshold that a vehicle can withstand.

(Running rate x Body) + Speed Rating

So a Dodge Scoot (Scooter) with a rated Speed of 60 m/ct could handle a max speed of 120 m/ct before taking damage, while a GMC Banshee (Thunderbird) with a rated Speed of 1,000 m/ct could sustain Speeds up to 6000 m/ct.

Magic should have it's limits, just not the same ones as mechanics.

What about my Mach 4.99 or so 400 BP character? I'd have to find the math on how fast it is, but it involves a Nosferatu getting a magic of 10-ish and Overchanneling a F20 spirit with Movement.
Headshot_Joe
I had an idea to create a mutant critter with Movement. It was to have been an albino, six-legged hamster, named Harvey (the Wonder Hamster). Harvey would have lacked the Logic to be considered intelligent enough to actually select a target for Movement, so he'd just cast it on the first thing he saw when he wanted to use it. He would want to use it whenever running in his wheel, so he could make the wheel turn faster. The plan was to design a cage with a transparent wheel that could be raised out of his reach when not in use. This cage would be bolted into the back of a GMC Bulldog. Whenever the van need go faster, a button could be pressed to lower Harvey's wheel into his reach, upon which he would proceed to run and cast movement. The first thing he saw in this instance would be the van itself (though from the inside, obviously), thus increasing it's movement speed by his Magic level. The only thing standing between me and a nearly 300mph GMC Bulldog is the addendum to the Movement critter power in Running Wild, stating that should the Body of the target exceed twice the Magic of the caster, that Movement has no effect. In fact, just about the biggest vehicle Harvey could use his power on would be a Harley Davidson Scorpion, or a Honda Spirit. And the only one he'd ever be able to truly use the full power of Movement on would be a Dodge Scoot, propelling it to somewhere between 135 and 180 mph. Of course, this is all very rudimentary calculation based on Harvey attaining a Magic att of 3 or 4, which would be kind of ridiculous for a relatively dumb hamster.
pbangarth
In my never-ending crusade to argue that Shadowrun is -not- Magicrun because checks and balances for magic are built into the game, I like to use this power as an example. I say to the player, "Sure, you're PC's Force 10 spirit can speed up his motorcycle by a factor of 10. Now, let's see him negotiate that T-junction at 1000 km/h." And sure, this can be used offensively. No worse than Stunbolting the driver. Well, except for the effects on the local environment.

Also, mechanical limitations such as those suggested above are reasonable.
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Apr 24 2013, 06:50 PM) *
In my never-ending crusade to argue that Shadowrun is -not- Magicrun because checks and balances for magic are built into the game, I like to use this power as an example. I say to the player, "Sure, you're PC's Force 10 spirit can speed up his motorcycle by a factor of 10. Now, let's see him negotiate that T-junction at 1000 km/h." And sure, this can be used offensively. No worse than Stunbolting the driver. Well, except for the effects on the local environment.

Also, mechanical limitations such as those suggested above are reasonable.

This is why Old Man Jones casts Levitate on his BMW* before having his ally spirit use Movement.

No buildings to hit at 2000 feet up.

smile.gif

-k

* - Okay it only happened once but it did happen. Oh my god that spell threshold. "I may have to use Edge on this."
pbangarth
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Apr 25 2013, 10:23 AM) *
This is why Old Man Jones casts Levitate on his BMW* before having his ally spirit use Movement.

No buildings to hit at 2000 feet up.

smile.gif

-k

* - Okay it only happened once but it did happen. Oh my god that spell threshold. "I may have to use Edge on this."

But then, the Movement power would augment the speed generated by Levitate, not the bike's ground speed, no?
Lantzer
I've looked at the Movement power as this:
  • From the point of view of the target, they are moving their normal speed, manuevering normally, with the normal wind in their hair.
  • From the point of the view of the world, they are BOOKING.
  • This is because magical Critter powers do not obey physics (Newtonian or relativistic). The target is not moving through exactly the same space-time as everyone else.


Critter powers can do things that neither physics nor Sorcery can do: They can fiddle with the basic structure of space-time.

I always figured that if you had a force 5 spirit using movement on a car to make it go 5 times faster, when it gets to it's destination, it's odometer has put 1/5 of the miles on it, and used 1/5 of the gas compared to normal circumstances, because from the point of view of the car, it went 1/5 the distance. What's happening to the other 4/5 of the journey? Who knows? Maybe the critter is blinking the car in and out of spacetime on the femtosecond scale. Or maybe not. It's magic (that mages can't do), and spirits and their ilk are VERY poorly understood.

This idea has a couple of side effects. A car with a movement power on it has the same momentum as a unmagicked car. It turns corners just as easily. It just gets where it's going faster.
Kiirnodel
I like that view. It means the Movement Power doesn't turn that car into a rail gun super weapon. If you use the reduced momentum it doesn't increase the vehicle damage on a Ram either...
Stahlseele
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Apr 25 2013, 12:50 AM) *
In my never-ending crusade to argue that Shadowrun is -not- Magicrun because checks and balances for magic are built into the game, I like to use this power as an example. I say to the player, "Sure, you're PC's Force 10 spirit can speed up his motorcycle by a factor of 10. Now, let's see him negotiate that T-junction at 1000 km/h." And sure, this can be used offensively. No worse than Stunbolting the driver. Well, except for the effects on the local environment.

Also, mechanical limitations such as those suggested above are reasonable.

aside from the fact that as per the rules i think he may actually be able to make it, because to him the bike is only going 60 miles per hour or so . .
DMiller
Thanks guys. I see (more-or-less) 2 opposing viewpoints here on how the Movement power works. Can anyone provide quotes, either RAW or fluff, to support their side or is it strictly GM/group interpretation?

Edit (for clarity):
Side one: Holy FRAK I’m moving fast!
Side two: I’m diddling along at normal speed… (from outside) Holy FRAK he’s moving fast!
Shaidar
QUOTE (DMiller @ Apr 25 2013, 04:14 PM) *
Side one: Holy FRAK I’m moving fast!


All my reference info is from previous editions of SR.
DMiller
QUOTE (Shaidar @ Apr 26 2013, 11:58 AM) *
All my reference info is from previous editions of SR.

I'm cool with that, I have most of the earlier edition books (just not in soft-copy).
Shaidar
Which I've already referenced in my first post of this thread.
kzt
QUOTE (Kiirnodel @ Apr 25 2013, 11:31 AM) *
I like that view. It means the Movement Power doesn't turn that car into a rail gun super weapon. If you use the reduced momentum it doesn't increase the vehicle damage on a Ram either...

Precisely. You take and do damage as if you are going your base speed.

This actually seems pretty absurd to me, but that very much seems to be how it is supposed to work in SR4.
kzt
QUOTE (DMiller @ Apr 25 2013, 06:14 PM) *
Thanks guys. I see (more-or-less) 2 opposing viewpoints here on how the Movement power works. Can anyone provide quotes, either RAW or fluff, to support their side or is it strictly GM/group interpretation?

I had a big discussion with Frank Trollman over this here a few years. As he got his ambulance with movement idea published I'd say he won.
DMiller
QUOTE (kzt @ Apr 26 2013, 01:58 PM) *
I had a big discussion with Frank Trollman over this here a few years. As he got his ambulance with movement idea published I'd say he won.

So I take it Frank's path on this was:
Side two: I’m diddling along at normal speed… (from outside) Holy FRAK he’s moving fast!
??
kzt
QUOTE (DMiller @ Apr 25 2013, 11:36 PM) *
So I take it Frank's path on this was:
Side two: I’m diddling along at normal speed… (from outside) Holy FRAK he’s moving fast!
??

Yup.

I can't find the particular discussion that really dug into it, but here is one of the ones subsequent:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=20968
Stahlseele
Anything else would make the Movement Power useless for anything that does not simply go in a straight line . .
Cain
I can relate what one GM did when we used Movement on a fast car. I successfully got the car to go Mach 4.6. cool.gif

The GM used the Rocket Booster rules from Arsenal to handle the stress to the vehicle.

I like the thought that the momentum is magically handwaved away, though. That way, the vehicle takes no Handling penalties, and can't be used as a super-ram. Unfortunately, by my reading of RAW, a target of Movement increases his actual speed, not relative. So you can do the super-ram with Movement.
Stahlseele
now use movement on a heimdall drone.
presto, cheapish self made thor shot!
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Apr 26 2013, 03:11 AM) *
now use movement on a heimdall drone.
presto, cheapish self made thor shot!


Not really... The Drone just does not have the Mass to generate the energy of a Thor Shot upon impact. Even assuming that you do not generate enough friction (in atmosphere, obviously) to melt it at that speed. *shrug*
WhiskeyJohnny
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 26 2013, 11:54 AM) *
Not really... The Drone just does not have the Mass to generate the energy of a Thor Shot upon impact. Even assuming that you do not generate enough friction (in atmosphere, obviously) to melt it at that speed. *shrug*


That depends on what velocity is achievable with the drone (velocity being a much larger factor than mass in the energy equation). And, assuming the drone remains cohesive enough as it reaches it's kill velocity, its being a molten hunk of slag by the point of impact won't be too much of an issue.
Neraph
QUOTE (WhiskeyJohnny @ Apr 26 2013, 12:15 PM) *
That depends on what velocity is achievable with the drone (velocity being a much larger factor than mass in the energy equation). And, assuming the drone remains cohesive enough as it reaches it's kill velocity, its being a molten hunk of slag by the point of impact won't be too much of an issue.

That reminds me of a funny snippet I read years back about a can of soup versus a Star Destroyer at different velocities. I can't find it now, however.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (WhiskeyJohnny @ Apr 26 2013, 12:15 PM) *
That depends on what velocity is achievable with the drone (velocity being a much larger factor than mass in the energy equation). And, assuming the drone remains cohesive enough as it reaches it's kill velocity, its being a molten hunk of slag by the point of impact won't be too much of an issue.


30,000 FPS x 200 pounds is vastly inferior to 30,000 FPS x 5000 Pounds when it comes to energy output. smile.gif
WhiskeyJohnny
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 26 2013, 02:11 PM) *
30,000 FPS x 200 pounds is vastly inferior to 30,000 FPS x 5000 Pounds when it comes to energy output. smile.gif


True enough, but I bet 25 Heimdalls are easier to get one's hands on than a Thor shot, and probably cheaper to boot.
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (Neraph @ Apr 26 2013, 02:46 PM) *
That reminds me of a funny snippet I read years back about a can of soup versus a Star Destroyer at different velocities. I can't find it now, however.

Here you go.



-k
Shaidar
Hey Tymeaus Jalynsfein where do you get 30,000 FPS and 5,000 lbs for a Thor Shot?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Shaidar @ Apr 26 2013, 11:04 PM) *
Hey Tymeaus Jalynsfein where do you get 30,000 FPS and 5,000 lbs for a Thor Shot?



Well, there are a lot of sources/speculation of what such a system would look like.

However, the Rod From God travels at orbital Velocities, attaining speeds within the atmosphere greater than 9km/Second (creaing a Plasma Sheath around the vehicle on reentry). The weight of the vehicle is dependant upon how much energy you want to impart at the target location. I have seen theoretical data raging from "Crowbar" sized multi-pack kill weapons (like a Cluster Bomb) to 9+ Ton Tungston Rods.

Here is a snippet from Popular Science.

QUOTE
This technology is very far out—in miles and years. A pair of satellites orbiting several hundred miles above the Earth would serve as a weapons system. One functions as the targeting and communications platform while the other carries numerous tungsten rods—up to 20 feet in length and a foot in diameter—that it can drop on targets with less than 15 minutes’ notice. When instructed from the ground, the targeting satellite commands its partner to drop one of its darts. The guided rods enter the atmosphere, protected by a thermal coating, traveling at 36,000 feet per second—comparable to the speed of a meteor. The result: complete devastation of the target, even if it’s buried deep underground. (The two-platform configuration permits the weapon to be “reloaded” by just launching a new set of rods, rather than replacing the entire system.)

The concept of kinetic-energy weapons has been around ever since the RAND Corporation proposed placing rods on the tips of ICBMs in the 1950s; the satellite twist was popularized by sci-fi writer Jerry Pournelle. Though the Pentagon won’t say how far along the research is, or even confirm that any efforts are underway, the concept persists. The “U.S. Air Force Transformation Flight Plan,” published by the Air Force in November 2003, references “hypervelocity rod bundles” in its outline of future space-based weapons, and in 2002, another report from RAND, “Space Weapons, Earth Wars,” dedicated entire sections to the technology’s usefulness.

If so-called “Rods from God”—an informal nickname of untraceable origin—ever do materialize, it won’t be for at least 15 years. Launching heavy tungsten rods into space will require substantially cheaper rocket technology than we have today. But there are numerous other obstacles to making such a system work. Pike, of GlobalSecurity.org, argues that the rods’ speed would be so high that they would vaporize on impact, before the rods could penetrate the surface. Furthermore, the “absentee ratio”—the fact that orbiting satellites circle the Earth every 100 minutes and so at any given time might be far from the desired target—would be prohibitive. A better solution, Pike argues, is to pursue the original concept: Place the rods atop intercontinental ballistic missiles, which would slow down enough during the downward part of their trajectory to avoid vaporizing on impact. ICBMs would also be less expensive and, since they’re stationed on Earth, would take less time to reach their targets. “The space-basing people seem to understand the downside of space weapons,” Pike says—among them, high costs and the difficulty of maintaining weapon platforms in orbit. “But I’ll still bet you there’s a lot of classified work on this going on right now.”
DMiller
I don't have much to say about the speed, but if my calculations are correct you are a bit off on the mass.

According to War! page 160 a Thor missile is a tungsten rod 0.5m by 12m, total volume of 9.429 m^3
According to this web site tungsten has a mass of 19,280 kg/m^3
Putting a Thor Missile at 181,791.1 kg or 400,780.8 lbs

I think the energy output from this rod will be much higher than you think it is. smile.gif

All I can say is OUCH, being hit by 182 metric tons moving at any speed would suck. Of course so would launching 12 of those into space. smile.gif

Oh and by the way, I love the Shadowrun math and research department. cool.gif

*edit: Just a note, according to my research we currently do not have the ability to place even one Thor Missile in orbit, let alone the standard satellite full of them.
*edit2: If my back of the napkin math is close (based on 30,000fps) the total energy output from a single Thor missile will be 7,600,000 TJ, which is about 3.5 times the total energy released from all world-wide nuclear testing as of 1996 (see this wiki for my energy numbers).
kzt
The developer was promised "There will be no math in Shadowrun" to get him to take the job. So they just make stuff up. smile.gif
Modular Man
QUOTE (DMiller @ Apr 29 2013, 01:51 AM) *
[...] 7,600,000 TJ [...]

Oh well, now that is some big energy output.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (DMiller @ Apr 28 2013, 06:51 PM) *
I don't have much to say about the speed, but if my calculations are correct you are a bit off on the mass.

According to War! page 160 a Thor missile is a tungsten rod 0.5m by 12m, total volume of 9.429 m^3
According to this web site tungsten has a mass of 19,280 kg/m^3
Putting a Thor Missile at 181,791.1 kg or 400,780.8 lbs

I think the energy output from this rod will be much higher than you think it is. smile.gif

All I can say is OUCH, being hit by 182 metric tons moving at any speed would suck. Of course so would launching 12 of those into space. smile.gif

Oh and by the way, I love the Shadowrun math and research department. cool.gif

*edit: Just a note, according to my research we currently do not have the ability to place even one Thor Missile in orbit, let alone the standard satellite full of them.
*edit2: If my back of the napkin math is close (based on 30,000fps) the total energy output from a single Thor missile will be 7,600,000 TJ, which is about 3.5 times the total energy released from all world-wide nuclear testing as of 1996 (see this wiki for my energy numbers).


I was relaying the mass on the Tungston rods (from the article). Because I have seen so many variations of weight, it is hard to pin down exact metrics on the theoretical application of such a weapon. Yes, the damage output gets to be extreme, there is no doubt, especially for the 182 Metric Ton Tungsten rod. smile.gif

Nominally, the output should be in the several kiloton range for what is described in Shadowrun. Not sure what the payload weight for that is (5-10 Tons probably), but it does not really matter all that much to me. It is sufficient to vaporize a 1/4 Mile diameter impact zone, with additional (heavy) damage out to another 200 Meters or so beyond that in all directions. Not sure why that needed actual stats. smile.gif
Cain
To get slightly back on topic, what would happen if a Spirit used Movement on an incoming THOR shot? wink.gif
kzt
QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 29 2013, 10:19 PM) *
To get slightly back on topic, what would happen if a Spirit used Movement on an incoming THOR shot? wink.gif

It becomes a lot harder to intercept is clear. It quite possibly misses the target by many KMs if it's ballistic, but who the hell knows as the people who write the rules clearly have almost no world building skills or much of an imagination.
DMiller
QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 30 2013, 01:19 PM) *
To get slightly back on topic, what would happen if a Spirit used Movement on an incoming THOR shot? wink.gif

Using SR physics, not much... using real physics... split the planet?
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