Movement Power, and handling Options

[DMiller]

All,

Does anyone have RAW references about how the spirit movement power affects handling of vehicles? The question came up in our last session, as a long term player/GM I remember there not being any change to handling or crash tests, but I can't find anything in the books about it.

We are playing 4th edition, but even a reference from an earlier edition would work as I have most of the books. I did search on Dumpshock for a thread about this, but after 6+ pages of looking I couldn't find an answer.

Thanks all.

[Mantis]

It won't change vehicle handling at all but it could very well increase the threshold for vehicle tests as you are moving at a faster speed. Trying to pull off a certain stunt at speed usually has a higher threshold. Take a look at the vehicle thresholds on pgs 168-169 SR4A.

[kzt]

The original version of movement (in Predator and Prey) had explicit notes that the critter controlling it could use it to cause bad things to happen to the target. Those have totally vanished from the 3rd and 4th edition. As far as I can tell, the idea seem to be that there are no negative effects on the target. Essentially, under a F6 movement and driving at 100 MPH you are treated for all intents and purposes as if you are driving at 100 MPH, not at the better part of Mach 1.

[DMiller]

The original version of movement (in Predator and Prey) had explicit notes that the critter controlling it could use it to cause bad things to happen to the target. Those have totally vanished from the 3rd and 4th edition. As far as I can tell, the idea seem to be that there are no negative effects on the target. Essentially, under a F6 movement and driving at 100 MPH you are treated for all intents and purposes as if you are driving at 100 MPH, not at the better part of Mach 1.

This is how we've always played it, but I was hoping for something in black-and-white. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Shaidar]

SR3's Movement (SR3 pg 265)

MOVEMENT
Type: P • Action: Complex • Range: LOS • Duration: Sustained
The being may use the Movement power to increase or decrease a target’s movement rate within the terrain it controls by multiplying or dividing the target’s movement rate by the being’s Essence.
When the Movement power is used on vehicles, the critter makes an Essence Test with a target number equal to half the vehicle’s Body. Multiply the successes by the vehicle’s Acceleration Rating and add the result to or subtract it from the vehicle’s Speed in the next Combat turn (similar to the vehicle making an Acceleration or Deceleration Test). The critter may continue making Essence Tests to increase or decrease the vehicle’s speed each Combat Turn it sustains the Movement power. Depending on the situation, this change in speed may call for a Crash or Stress Test.

Speed
Speed is the reasonable high-end maximum velocity of the vehicle.
Drivers can accelerate past this, but they encounter difficulties in pushing their vehicles to go faster while still maintaining control. The gamemaster should apply modifiers as she feels appropriate.
Speed is expressed in meters per Combat Turn.

I'd say using an SR4 Vehicle Test would seem appropriate and by the book. Exceeding the vehicles Speed attribute should increase the Threshold of maneuvers attempted by 1 for each Running Rate multiple increase above the Speed. I'd go so far as to use the Running rate acceleration times the Force as the maximum that a vehicle can withstand before it gets ripped apart by the un-natural acceleration.

[insert Mythbusters JATO rocket booster clip here]

[DMiller]

I'd say using an SR4 Vehicle Test would seem appropriate and by the book. Exceeding the vehicles Speed attribute should increase the Threshold of maneuvers attempted by 1 for each Running Rate multiple increase above the Speed. I'd go so far as to use the Running rate acceleration times the Force as the maximum that a vehicle can withstand before it gets ripped apart by the un-natural acceleration.

Thanks Shaidar.

The only problem I see with your suggestion is that the speed attribute on most vehicles is a multiple (usually x4 (from the main book)) of the "running" acceleration. I actually suggested to the GM to use Force/2 (round down) as the threshold modifier, but with no maximum "because Magic".

[Shaidar]

I meant for the modifiers and damage threshold to come into effect after the vehicle exceeds the Speed Rating of the vehicle.

OR we could substitute the Vehicles Body in place of force for calculating the upper speed threshold that a vehicle can withstand.

(Running rate x Body) + Speed Rating

So a Dodge Scoot (Scooter) with a rated Speed of 60 m/ct could handle a max speed of 120 m/ct before taking damage, while a GMC Banshee (Thunderbird) with a rated Speed of 1,000 m/ct could sustain Speeds up to 6000 m/ct.

Magic should have it's limits, just not the same ones as mechanics.

[DMiller]

I meant for the modifiers and damage threshold to come into effect after the vehicle exceeds the Speed Rating of the vehicle.

OR we could substitute the Vehicles Body in place of force for calculating the upper speed threshold that a vehicle can withstand.

(Running rate x Body) + Speed Rating

So a Dodge Scoot (Scooter) with a rated Speed of 60 m/ct could handle a max speed of 120 m/ct before taking damage, while a GMC Banshee (Thunderbird) with a rated Speed of 1,000 m/ct could sustain Speeds up to 6000 m/ct.

Magic should have it's limits, just not the same ones as mechanics.

Ahh, that makes sense. Thanks for the clarification. I may suggest this to our group. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Neraph]

I meant for the modifiers and damage threshold to come into effect after the vehicle exceeds the Speed Rating of the vehicle.

OR we could substitute the Vehicles Body in place of force for calculating the upper speed threshold that a vehicle can withstand.

(Running rate x Body) + Speed Rating

So a Dodge Scoot (Scooter) with a rated Speed of 60 m/ct could handle a max speed of 120 m/ct before taking damage, while a GMC Banshee (Thunderbird) with a rated Speed of 1,000 m/ct could sustain Speeds up to 6000 m/ct.

Magic should have it's limits, just not the same ones as mechanics.

What about my Mach 4.99 or so 400 BP character? I'd have to find the math on how fast it is, but it involves a Nosferatu getting a magic of 10-ish and Overchanneling a F20 spirit with Movement.

[Headshot_Joe]

I had an idea to create a mutant critter with Movement. It was to have been an albino, six-legged hamster, named Harvey (the Wonder Hamster). Harvey would have lacked the Logic to be considered intelligent enough to actually select a target for Movement, so he'd just cast it on the first thing he saw when he wanted to use it. He would want to use it whenever running in his wheel, so he could make the wheel turn faster. The plan was to design a cage with a transparent wheel that could be raised out of his reach when not in use. This cage would be bolted into the back of a GMC Bulldog. Whenever the van need go faster, a button could be pressed to lower Harvey's wheel into his reach, upon which he would proceed to run and cast movement. The first thing he saw in this instance would be the van itself (though from the inside, obviously), thus increasing it's movement speed by his Magic level. The only thing standing between me and a nearly 300mph GMC Bulldog is the addendum to the Movement critter power in Running Wild, stating that should the Body of the target exceed twice the Magic of the caster, that Movement has no effect. In fact, just about the biggest vehicle Harvey could use his power on would be a Harley Davidson Scorpion, or a Honda Spirit. And the only one he'd ever be able to truly use the full power of Movement on would be a Dodge Scoot, propelling it to somewhere between 135 and 180 mph. Of course, this is all very rudimentary calculation based on Harvey attaining a Magic att of 3 or 4, which would be kind of ridiculous for a relatively dumb hamster.

[pbangarth]

In my never-ending crusade to argue that Shadowrun is -not- Magicrun because checks and balances for magic are built into the game, I like to use this power as an example. I say to the player, "Sure, you're PC's Force 10 spirit can speed up his motorcycle by a factor of 10. Now, let's see him negotiate that T-junction at 1000 km/h." And sure, this can be used offensively. No worse than Stunbolting the driver. Well, except for the effects on the local environment.

Also, mechanical limitations such as those suggested above are reasonable.

[KarmaInferno]

In my never-ending crusade to argue that Shadowrun is -not- Magicrun because checks and balances for magic are built into the game, I like to use this power as an example. I say to the player, "Sure, you're PC's Force 10 spirit can speed up his motorcycle by a factor of 10. Now, let's see him negotiate that T-junction at 1000 km/h." And sure, this can be used offensively. No worse than Stunbolting the driver. Well, except for the effects on the local environment.

Also, mechanical limitations such as those suggested above are reasonable.

This is why Old Man Jones casts Levitate on his BMW* before having his ally spirit use Movement.

No buildings to hit at 2000 feet up.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

-k

* - Okay it only happened once but it did happen. Oh my god that spell threshold. "I may have to use Edge on this."

[pbangarth]

This is why Old Man Jones casts Levitate on his BMW* before having his ally spirit use Movement.

No buildings to hit at 2000 feet up.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

-k

* - Okay it only happened once but it did happen. Oh my god that spell threshold. "I may have to use Edge on this."

But then, the Movement power would augment the speed generated by Levitate, not the bike's ground speed, no?

[Lantzer]

I've looked at the Movement power as this:

• From the point of view of the target, they are moving their normal speed, manuevering normally, with the normal wind in their hair.
• From the point of the view of the world, they are BOOKING.
• This is because magical Critter powers do not obey physics (Newtonian or relativistic). The target is not moving through exactly the same space-time as everyone else.

Critter powers can do things that neither physics nor Sorcery can do: They can fiddle with the basic structure of space-time.

I always figured that if you had a force 5 spirit using movement on a car to make it go 5 times faster, when it gets to it's destination, it's odometer has put 1/5 of the miles on it, and used 1/5 of the gas compared to normal circumstances, because from the point of view of the car, it went 1/5 the distance. What's happening to the other 4/5 of the journey? Who knows? Maybe the critter is blinking the car in and out of spacetime on the femtosecond scale. Or maybe not. It's magic (that mages can't do), and spirits and their ilk are VERY poorly understood.

This idea has a couple of side effects. A car with a movement power on it has the same momentum as a unmagicked car. It turns corners just as easily. It just gets where it's going faster.

[Kiirnodel]

I like that view. It means the Movement Power doesn't turn that car into a rail gun super weapon. If you use the reduced momentum it doesn't increase the vehicle damage on a Ram either...

[Stahlseele]

In my never-ending crusade to argue that Shadowrun is -not- Magicrun because checks and balances for magic are built into the game, I like to use this power as an example. I say to the player, "Sure, you're PC's Force 10 spirit can speed up his motorcycle by a factor of 10. Now, let's see him negotiate that T-junction at 1000 km/h." And sure, this can be used offensively. No worse than Stunbolting the driver. Well, except for the effects on the local environment.

Also, mechanical limitations such as those suggested above are reasonable.

aside from the fact that as per the rules i think he may actually be able to make it, because to him the bike is only going 60 miles per hour or so . .

[DMiller]

Thanks guys. I see (more-or-less) 2 opposing viewpoints here on how the Movement power works. Can anyone provide quotes, either RAW or fluff, to support their side or is it strictly GM/group interpretation?

Edit (for clarity):
Side one: Holy FRAK I’m moving fast!
Side two: I’m diddling along at normal speed… (from outside) Holy FRAK he’s moving fast!

[Shaidar]

Side one: Holy FRAK I’m moving fast!

All my reference info is from previous editions of SR.

[DMiller]

All my reference info is from previous editions of SR.

I'm cool with that, I have most of the earlier edition books (just not in soft-copy).

[Shaidar]

Which I've already referenced in my first post of this thread.

[kzt]

I like that view. It means the Movement Power doesn't turn that car into a rail gun super weapon. If you use the reduced momentum it doesn't increase the vehicle damage on a Ram either...

Precisely. You take and do damage as if you are going your base speed.

This actually seems pretty absurd to me, but that very much seems to be how it is supposed to work in SR4.

[kzt]

Thanks guys. I see (more-or-less) 2 opposing viewpoints here on how the Movement power works. Can anyone provide quotes, either RAW or fluff, to support their side or is it strictly GM/group interpretation?

I had a big discussion with Frank Trollman over this here a few years. As he got his ambulance with movement idea published I'd say he won.

[DMiller]

I had a big discussion with Frank Trollman over this here a few years. As he got his ambulance with movement idea published I'd say he won.

So I take it Frank's path on this was:
Side two: I’m diddling along at normal speed… (from outside) Holy FRAK he’s moving fast!
??

[kzt]

So I take it Frank's path on this was:
Side two: I’m diddling along at normal speed… (from outside) Holy FRAK he’s moving fast!
??

Yup.

I can't find the particular discussion that really dug into it, but here is one of the ones subsequent:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=20968

[Stahlseele]

Anything else would make the Movement Power useless for anything that does not simply go in a straight line . .