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Thanee
post Apr 26 2013, 10:47 AM
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When you use the Shapechange spell to change into a critter, let's say a dog, you can increase the physical Attributes by your hits.

Is there a limit for this? i.e. the augmented max? And if so, what is it?

Should one just assume the given Attributes are three points (see p. 292 SR4A "Attributes and Skills") below the natural max and calculate from there?

i.e. a dog has a Strength of 2. So the natural max Strength would be 5, which gives an augmented max of 7.

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Tanegar
post Apr 26 2013, 11:45 AM
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IMO, the whole increasing-Attributes thing makes Shapechange broken. I would rule that you keep your own Attributes in critter form, regardless of what that form's natural Attributes may be. You get any Enhanced Senses or other special abilities, but everything else is yours.
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Falconer
post Apr 26 2013, 12:03 PM
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The limit is the limit of your natural form.

IE: a human is limited to 9's... since 6(9) is the augmented limit. Magic or tech cannot raise an attribute above this.

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Neraph
post Apr 26 2013, 05:10 PM
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They're both wrong. By the book there is no limit. Tanegar and Falconer both are proposing House-Rules as RAW, and only Tanegar is actually admitting to it.

You use the animal's stats + net hits. Since animals don't have a RAW max attribute there is no cap. Your assumation is a solid rule-of-thumb, however, and would be a good limiting factor (and in fact is the one that is in place at my tables).
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Bearclaw
post Apr 26 2013, 05:25 PM
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We partially fixed this at my table by creating a threshold of 0+difference in body between caster and creature. Then NET HITS are used to modify stats.

So changing to something basically your own size will still get you a bunch of hits, but that drops fast as you move away from your original size. The point was to allow more variation in what a caster could turn into, but it has the advantage of limiting the stats.

<edit> Also, no "metahuman form" nonsense. </edit>
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Neraph
post Apr 26 2013, 06:43 PM
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Interesting take. I'm actually developing a spell for a rules template (think of D&D vs Eberron) of SR that is Warform. It's a Shapechange/(Critter) Form-esque spell that allows you to mix and match characteristics (and natural Powers) of different animals and even have a humanoid form by increasing the threshold for the spell. For example, turning into a bear is a Success Test. Turning into a bear with bat's sonar and rhinocerus skin would be a Threshold of X. Turning into an anthropomorphic bear with bat's sonar and rhino skin would be a Threshold of Y.
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Falconer
post Apr 26 2013, 10:33 PM
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No Neraph.. you're the one making up house rules.

The book *DOES* state this unequivocally... Magic or Tech cannot raise you above the augmented limits. Even possession was subjected to this limitation.

The spell does not turn you into the critter... it alters your form into that of the critter. Your type does not change for purposes of a slay human spell for example. You are saying that you are effectively a critter for all purposes and cease to be metahuman.


Unless you can cite me clear evidence in the book that shapechange breaks this limitation. Then you're the one making shit up... just like you normally do.
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Thanee
post Apr 26 2013, 10:46 PM
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No need to be rude. Keep it civil, please.

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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Apr 26 2013, 11:12 PM
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This is the direct quote from the book (SR4A)...

QUOTE
Shapechange transforms a voluntary subject into a normal (non-paranormal) critter, though the subject retains human consciousness. The subject can only assume the form of a critter whose base Body rating is 2 points greater or less than her own. Consult the Critters section, p. 292 [or Running Wild, naturally, for more examples], for the subject’'s Physical attributes while in critter form. Add 1 to the critter’s Base attribute Ratings for every hit the caster generates. Her Mental attributes remain unchanged.


AS you can see, the target is no longer a Metahuman, they are an Animal who contains the original Character's Mental Attributes.
So, your Metahuman Physical Caps no longer apply (and are in fact subsumed by the Critter's Physical Attributes, whether higher or lower. A Possessed Mage, on the other hand, still has his own Attributes, though they are AUGMENTED by the Spirit's Force, which is why the Metahuman Atribute Caps still apply. *shrug*
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Falconer
post Apr 26 2013, 11:44 PM
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Thank you TJ for spelling out the counterargument instead of just tossing out blind accusations of house ruling.

I still disagree though. It transforms the metahuman body into a new form, but nothing in there states it eliminates the limitations on how much magic can alter the metahuman form. Similarly by your logic... a slay dog spell would apply equally to a dog... or a shapechanged dog. I'm not certain that is the intent of the developers.


Though this is out in left field and playing devil's advocate.

The last bit could be read as for each net success add 1 to (any of/each of) the critter's Base Attribute Ratings. The text could be claimed ambiguous on that point... only getting 1 attribute point per success instead of 4 would rein the spell in very quickly. Though I think that's a weak argument myself... just tossing it out there.
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Dakka Dakka
post Apr 27 2013, 12:37 AM
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QUOTE (Falconer @ Apr 27 2013, 01:44 AM) *
Similarly by your logic... a slay dog spell would apply equally to a dog... or a shapechanged dog.
If you are talking about a metahuman or sapient critter shapechanged into a dog, that is what the rules say. I would not see that as a problem though. The slay spells are just mana bolts with less drain.

QUOTE (Falconer @ Apr 27 2013, 01:44 AM) *
I'm not certain that is the intent of the developers.
Nobody can be unless he has asked the developers and gotten an answer.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Apr 27 2013, 09:36 PM
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QUOTE (Falconer @ Apr 26 2013, 04:44 PM) *
Thank you TJ for spelling out the counterargument instead of just tossing out blind accusations of house ruling.

I still disagree though. It transforms the metahuman body into a new form, but nothing in there states it eliminates the limitations on how much magic can alter the metahuman form. Similarly by your logic... a slay dog spell would apply equally to a dog... or a shapechanged dog. I'm not certain that is the intent of the developers.


Though this is out in left field and playing devil's advocate.

The last bit could be read as for each net success add 1 to (any of/each of) the critter's Base Attribute Ratings. The text could be claimed ambiguous on that point... only getting 1 attribute point per success instead of 4 would rein the spell in very quickly. Though I think that's a weak argument myself... just tossing it out there.


My Pleasure... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

We control the spell a bit by only allowing a Single Attribute point per Net hit adding (to whichever Physical Attribute you like) when casting the spell. Instead of 4 Net Hits adding +4 to each Physical Attribute, you allocate your 4 hits (as 4 attribute points) to the physical attributes in whatever combination you like. It keeps things a bit more reasonable, in my opinion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

As for the Slay Dog spell in your example; Yes, it would work against a Dog, or a Mage who has used Shapechange/Critter Form to assume the form of a Dog. Fair is fair, after all. By the Same Token, The Slay Troll spell would no longer work on that Troll who has shapechanged into a Dog. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Bearclaw
post Apr 29 2013, 01:41 AM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 27 2013, 02:36 PM) *
By the Same Token, The Slay Troll spell would no longer work on that Troll who has shapechanged into a Dog. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


I hate this, but the spell description is pretty clear.
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Tanegar
post Apr 29 2013, 02:49 AM
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Why do you hate it?
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Bearclaw
post Apr 29 2013, 04:19 AM
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Because the troll shapechanged into a dog should be killed by both a Slay Dog and a Slay Troll. Because his aura is still a Trolls aura, so he really is a Troll, even if his body has been transformed.
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Tanegar
post Apr 29 2013, 06:12 AM
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The spell description (SR4A, p. 211) says nothing about the subject's aura. Moreover, if the magician's aura is still that of a troll, and if it's the aura that counts for the purpose of targeting a Slay spell, rather than the body; why would the troll be vulnerable to a Slay Dog spell?
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Dakka Dakka
post Apr 29 2013, 06:37 AM
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The aura can never be a criterion for a spell cast on the physical plane. Since Shapechange is a P spell it can never be cast on the astral plane. An aura only exists on the astral plane. So there can be no interaction between the aura and the shapechange/[critter] form spell.

While mana bolt/ Slay X can be cast on the astral plane shapechange does not make the target of the spell dual-natured, so such spells would not work if cast on the astral plane. Even here the aura is irrelevant.

It is not entirely clear which type of Slay spell would work on the transformed creature, but it should only ever be one, never both.
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Thanee
post Apr 29 2013, 09:31 AM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Apr 29 2013, 08:37 AM) *
The aura can never be a criterion for a spell cast on the physical plane.


Fluffwise, mana spells are channeled into the aura of the target.

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Garvel
post Apr 29 2013, 12:52 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 27 2013, 12:12 AM) *
This is the direct quote from the book (SR4A)...



AS you can see, the target is no longer a Metahuman, they are an Animal who contains the original Character's Mental Attributes.
So, your Metahuman Physical Caps no longer apply (and are in fact subsumed by the Critter's Physical Attributes, whether higher or lower. A Possessed Mage, on the other hand, still has his own Attributes, though they are AUGMENTED by the Spirit's Force, which is why the Metahuman Atribute Caps still apply. *shrug*

Well, it might not be that easy.
Imagine a mage has 6 logic and sustains an increase (logic) spell rating 6 with 6 hits. This way his augmented logic attribute would be 12, but its capped by his augmented maximum to 9 logic. Now he casts Shapechange to turn into a parrot. Since the augmented logic maximum for parrots is nowhere stated, now he has a logic attribute of 12 logic. Way more clever then he was in human form.
Which GM would actually allow that? It says "Her Mental attributes remain unchanged", so the augmented maximums for mental attributes shouldn't change too. And having only half of your augmented maximums removed and the other half not, seems pretty odd. I don't even have a clear oppinion here what to do. I just want to point out that the rules are ambiguous. You aren't a real dog with the spell, you are a dog with the brains of a human.

Moreover, only because augmented maximums for critters are nowhere stated, doesn't have to mean that they don't exist. Even if the rules don't say that woman can bear children, that doesn't mean that they can't. The rules don't have to mention everything that is obvious enough for common sense. If an augmented maximum for a critter is needed, the GM is supposed do make it up. The reason why the augmented maximums aren't mentioned is because they are needed almost never and would be a waste of pages in the books. But if Lofwyr decides for some reason to have an arm westling match between a human and a squirrel, and he gives both a rating 12 Increase Attribute (Strength) spell, that doesn't mean that the squirrel is going to win because it has no augmented maximum. It means the GM has to make up a maximum augmented strength maximum for the squirrel.

In the end you could fill pages with frequently unanswered questions for the Shapechange spell. This thread only mentions a few. Its pretty hard to say what is RAW and what is not. Shapechange is definetely a funny idea. But most interpretations don't make any sense when you look at them closely and/or can be horribly exploited. Therefore you can't really say that Falconers interpretation is simply wrong.
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Dakka Dakka
post Apr 29 2013, 01:46 PM
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QUOTE (Thanee @ Apr 29 2013, 11:31 AM) *
Fluffwise, mana spells are channeled into the aura of the target.
I'm pretty sure that is no longer the case, since the two planes were separated and tunneling was made impossible. Care to provide a quote from a 4th Edition book?

QUOTE (Garvel @ Apr 29 2013, 02:52 PM) *
Well, it might not be that easy.
Imagine a mage has 6 logic and sustains an increase (logic) spell rating 6 with 6 hits. This way his augmented logic attribute would be 12, but its capped by his augmented maximum to 9 logic. Now he casts Shapechange to turn into a parrot. Since the augmented logic maximum for parrots is nowhere stated, now he has a logic attribute of 12 logic. Way more clever then he was in human form.
Which GM would actually allow that? It says "Her Mental attributes remain unchanged", so the augmented maximums for mental attributes shouldn't change too. And having only half of your augmented maximums removed and the other half not, seems pretty odd. I don't even have a clear oppinion here what to do. I just want to point out that the rules are ambiguous. You aren't a real dog with the spell, you are a dog with the brains of a human.
You might find that odd, but that is what the rules say. Mental Attributes are unchanged, Physical Attributes are replaced. Since they are replaced, not enhanced/augmented/added to, metahuman maxima are irrelevant.

QUOTE (Garvel @ Apr 29 2013, 02:52 PM) *
Moreover, only because augmented maximums for critters are nowhere stated, doesn't have to mean that they don't exist. Even if the rules don't say that woman can bear children, that doesn't mean that they can't. The rules don't have to mention everything that is obvious enough for common sense. If an augmented maximum for a critter is needed, the GM is supposed do make it up. The reason why the augmented maximums aren't mentioned is because they are needed almost never and would be a waste of pages in the books. But if Lofwyr decides for some reason to have an arm westling match between a human and a squirrel, and he gives both a rating 12 Increase Attribute (Strength) spell, that doesn't mean that the squirrel is going to win because it has no augmented maximum. It means the GM has to make up a maximum augmented strength maximum for the squirrel.
A GM can of course arbitrarily set attribute maxima for critters but any amximum set is a house rule. By RAW there are none. The comparison to child bearing women does not work. While we have real world experience to fall back on regarding women, we do not have that recourse with magic. Limiting the shapechange spell is no more valid than not limiting it. Quite the contrary even, it is a house rule to do so.

QUOTE (Garvel @ Apr 29 2013, 02:52 PM) *
In the end you could fill pages with frequently unanswered questions for the Shapechange spell. This thread only mentions a few. Its pretty hard to say what is RAW and what is not. Shapechange is definetely a funny idea. But most interpretations don't make any sense when you look at them closely and/or can be horribly exploited. Therefore you can't really say that Falconers interpretation is simply wrong.
Actually the RAW is not that unclear, it is just that the RAW does not line up with the expectations of most people.
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Kiirnodel
post Apr 29 2013, 02:16 PM
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Where are the rules defining what a Spirit's attributes' augmented maximum are? I know they have one because the rules for Invoking specifically reference that fact in Street Magic. I have always thought it would just be 1.5 times their listed attribute, but that was just an extrapolation of the rules. I took a quick look and didn't notice a specific rule for it. Without a specific rule for augmented maximum of an attribute for a critter it is actually quite easy to extrapolate one based on the rules we have for attributes as a whole.

First, based on the rules for attributes and augmented maximum we know that the augmented maximum for an attribute is 1.5 times the natural maximum. This is listed in Core Game Concepts of SR4A, pg. 68.

Next, we know the natural maximum for a critter is the listed attribute + 3. That is also in the SR4A pg. 292 "Attributes may be adjusted up to three points in either direction".

Finally, we do simple math [(Critter's Listed Attribute) + 3] * 1.5 = augmented maximum. That is purely based on the core concepts of the game without simply saying that since it isn't listed it doesn't exist.

Personally, I would make an exception for Spirits and just use Attribute * 1.5 since their attributes area already variable based on Force. But that isn't the topic for this thread, let me know if you find a listing for a specific rule though.
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Garvel
post Apr 29 2013, 04:22 PM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Apr 29 2013, 01:46 PM) *
A GM can of course arbitrarily set attribute maxima for critters but any amximum set is a house rule. By RAW there are none. The comparison to child bearing women does not work. While we have real world experience to fall back on regarding women, we do not have that recourse with magic.

So what? RAW has nothing to do with real world experience. If there isn't a rule that says that woman can bear children, then allowing a female charakter to give birth to a child is not RAW. It is not Rules As Written. Its as simple as that. Its is not written in the rules. You may call it common sense or a houserule, but it is not RAW. The rules don't allow or forbid it. Because the rules never adressed it. If you would allow all "real world experience" to count as RAW, you would get into hot water. Headshots would kill in 95% of all cases and human would have much higher strength attributes when in life-or-death situations, than in not life-or-death situations, and so on.
The comparison works very well. You don't need magic for maximum augmented ratings to work. No matter how many combat drugs you inject into a mouse, it will never have as much strength as a human has. I know that from real world experience, because I am an evil genius and my plans for world domination with combat-drugged mice failed miserably. That is because there is a real physical maximum to what the body of a 25 gram mouse can lift, no matter what the RAW rules tell us. (With combinating implants and combat drugs a strengthbonus of 12 or more would be possible)

Every critter that players can play has its maximum augmented attribute ratings stated. Thats because playable critters are worked out in much more detail. It is obvious enough that all critters in shadowrun have a maximum, stated or not. (And not just some random unlucky critters, that have that disadvantage, and it happen to be the exact same critters that players can play by sheer coincidence.)
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Dakka Dakka
post Apr 29 2013, 04:44 PM
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First of all the spell does not make the target of the spell a critter of a certain kind, it turns it into something else (a critter with a human consciousness). Thus there is no indication that the restrictions to attributes of critters applies to that entity as well.

Secondly the spell's rule does not say that the entity created by the shapechange spell is restricted to the usual variations of its kind (+/-3) or that the extra hits create an augmented attribute. The spell simply tells us to "Add 1
to the critter’s Base attribute Ratings for every hit the caster generates." Since this kind of transformation can only occur through magic we do not even have RL experience or common sense to fall back on. Introducing restriction other than those imposed by the spell is simply a house rule.

I'm not arguing that there should not be such a restriction, just that the rules do not restrict the attributes of such an entity.
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Bearclaw
post Apr 29 2013, 07:28 PM
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It would be nice if there were actually stated min/max stats for critters. Obviously, there is a max and an augmented max. And we can use a little logic to arrive at a number. The [(Critter's Listed Attribute) + 3] * 1.5 = augmented maximum is clearly the implied rule, even if it's not stated. But using it is still a house rule. So the answer to the question is "no, there is no max in the rules".

Also, I guess since the "slay" is a physical spell, a troll shapechanged to a dog would be effected by a slay dog, but not a slay troll.
But, what about mental stats. If you keep your mind and mental stats, would you use the control thoughts or the critter control version? Logic tells me it would be the regular metahuman targeting one, but I guess there could be arguments the other way.
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Thanee
post Apr 29 2013, 08:28 PM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Apr 29 2013, 03:46 PM) *
I'm pretty sure that is no longer the case, since the two planes were separated and tunneling was made impossible. Care to provide a quote from a 4th Edition book?


Sure thing! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

p. 181 SR4A

QUOTE
SPELLS 101

When looking at a spell, the first thing to determine about it is how it interacts with its target. Just as there are both the physical and the astral planes, like two sides of a coin, a caster can choose to either affect a target’s physical form or to channel the spell into the aura of a creature—what many traditions believe to be the very essence of its life force.

A spell that affects a target physically is called a physical spell, while a spell that affects a target through mana is called a mana spell.


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