When you use the Shapechange spell to change into a critter, let's say a dog, you can increase the physical Attributes by your hits.

Is there a limit for this? i.e. the augmented max? And if so, what is it?

Should one just assume the given Attributes are three points (see p. 292 SR4A "Attributes and Skills") below the natural max and calculate from there?

i.e. a dog has a Strength of 2. So the natural max Strength would be 5, which gives an augmented max of 7.

Bye
Thanee

IMO, the whole increasing-Attributes thing makes Shapechange broken. I would rule that you keep your own Attributes in critter form, regardless of what that form's natural Attributes may be. You get any Enhanced Senses or other special abilities, but everything else is yours.

The limit is the limit of your natural form.

IE: a human is limited to 9's... since 6(9) is the augmented limit. Magic or tech cannot raise an attribute above this.

They're both wrong. By the book there is no limit. Tanegar and Falconer both are proposing House-Rules as RAW, and only Tanegar is actually admitting to it.

You use the animal's stats + net hits. Since animals don't have a RAW max attribute there is no cap. Your assumation is a solid rule-of-thumb, however, and would be a good limiting factor (and in fact is the one that is in place at my tables).

We partially fixed this at my table by creating a threshold of 0+difference in body between caster and creature. Then NET HITS are used to modify stats.

So changing to something basically your own size will still get you a bunch of hits, but that drops fast as you move away from your original size. The point was to allow more variation in what a caster could turn into, but it has the advantage of limiting the stats.

<edit> Also, no "metahuman form" nonsense. </edit>

Interesting take. I'm actually developing a spell for a rules template (think of D&D vs Eberron) of SR that is Warform. It's a Shapechange/(Critter) Form-esque spell that allows you to mix and match characteristics (and natural Powers) of different animals and even have a humanoid form by increasing the threshold for the spell. For example, turning into a bear is a Success Test. Turning into a bear with bat's sonar and rhinocerus skin would be a Threshold of X. Turning into an anthropomorphic bear with bat's sonar and rhino skin would be a Threshold of Y.

No Neraph.. you're the one making up house rules.

The book *DOES* state this unequivocally... Magic or Tech cannot raise you above the augmented limits. Even possession was subjected to this limitation.

The spell does not turn you into the critter... it alters your form into that of the critter. Your type does not change for purposes of a slay human spell for example. You are saying that you are effectively a critter for all purposes and cease to be metahuman.


Unless you can cite me clear evidence in the book that shapechange breaks this limitation. Then you're the one making shit up... just like you normally do.

No need to be rude. Keep it civil, please.

Bye
Thanee

This is the direct quote from the book (SR4A)...



AS you can see, the target is no longer a Metahuman, they are an Animal who contains the original Character's Mental Attributes.
So, your Metahuman Physical Caps no longer apply (and are in fact subsumed by the Critter's Physical Attributes, whether higher or lower. A Possessed Mage, on the other hand, still has his own Attributes, though they are AUGMENTED by the Spirit's Force, which is why the Metahuman Atribute Caps still apply. *shrug*

Thank you TJ for spelling out the counterargument instead of just tossing out blind accusations of house ruling.

I still disagree though. It transforms the metahuman body into a new form, but nothing in there states it eliminates the limitations on how much magic can alter the metahuman form. Similarly by your logic... a slay dog spell would apply equally to a dog... or a shapechanged dog. I'm not certain that is the intent of the developers.


Though this is out in left field and playing devil's advocate.

The last bit could be read as for each net success add 1 to (any of/each of) the critter's Base Attribute Ratings. The text could be claimed ambiguous on that point... only getting 1 attribute point per success instead of 4 would rein the spell in very quickly. Though I think that's a weak argument myself... just tossing it out there.

If you are talking about a metahuman or sapient critter shapechanged into a dog, that is what the rules say. I would not see that as a problem though. The slay spells are just mana bolts with less drain.

Nobody can be unless he has asked the developers and gotten an answer.

My Pleasure...

We control the spell a bit by only allowing a Single Attribute point per Net hit adding (to whichever Physical Attribute you like) when casting the spell. Instead of 4 Net Hits adding +4 to each Physical Attribute, you allocate your 4 hits (as 4 attribute points) to the physical attributes in whatever combination you like. It keeps things a bit more reasonable, in my opinion.

As for the Slay Dog spell in your example; Yes, it would work against a Dog, or a Mage who has used Shapechange/Critter Form to assume the form of a Dog. Fair is fair, after all. By the Same Token, The Slay Troll spell would no longer work on that Troll who has shapechanged into a Dog.

I hate this, but the spell description is pretty clear.

Why do you hate it?

Because the troll shapechanged into a dog should be killed by both a Slay Dog and a Slay Troll. Because his aura is still a Trolls aura, so he really is a Troll, even if his body has been transformed.

The spell description (SR4A, p. 211) says nothing about the subject's aura. Moreover, if the magician's aura is still that of a troll, and if it's the aura that counts for the purpose of targeting a Slay spell, rather than the body; why would the troll be vulnerable to a Slay Dog spell?

The aura can never be a criterion for a spell cast on the physical plane. Since Shapechange is a P spell it can never be cast on the astral plane. An aura only exists on the astral plane. So there can be no interaction between the aura and the shapechange/[critter] form spell.

While mana bolt/ Slay X can be cast on the astral plane shapechange does not make the target of the spell dual-natured, so such spells would not work if cast on the astral plane. Even here the aura is irrelevant.

It is not entirely clear which type of Slay spell would work on the transformed creature, but it should only ever be one, never both.

Fluffwise, mana spells are channeled into the aura of the target.

Bye
Thanee

Well, it might not be that easy.
Imagine a mage has 6 logic and sustains an increase (logic) spell rating 6 with 6 hits. This way his augmented logic attribute would be 12, but its capped by his augmented maximum to 9 logic. Now he casts Shapechange to turn into a parrot. Since the augmented logic maximum for parrots is nowhere stated, now he has a logic attribute of 12 logic. Way more clever then he was in human form.
Which GM would actually allow that? It says "Her Mental attributes remain unchanged", so the augmented maximums for mental attributes shouldn't change too. And having only half of your augmented maximums removed and the other half not, seems pretty odd. I don't even have a clear oppinion here what to do. I just want to point out that the rules are ambiguous. You aren't a real dog with the spell, you are a dog with the brains of a human.

Moreover, only because augmented maximums for critters are nowhere stated, doesn't have to mean that they don't exist. Even if the rules don't say that woman can bear children, that doesn't mean that they can't. The rules don't have to mention everything that is obvious enough for common sense. If an augmented maximum for a critter is needed, the GM is supposed do make it up. The reason why the augmented maximums aren't mentioned is because they are needed almost never and would be a waste of pages in the books. But if Lofwyr decides for some reason to have an arm westling match between a human and a squirrel, and he gives both a rating 12 Increase Attribute (Strength) spell, that doesn't mean that the squirrel is going to win because it has no augmented maximum. It means the GM has to make up a maximum augmented strength maximum for the squirrel.

In the end you could fill pages with frequently unanswered questions for the Shapechange spell. This thread only mentions a few. Its pretty hard to say what is RAW and what is not. Shapechange is definetely a funny idea. But most interpretations don't make any sense when you look at them closely and/or can be horribly exploited. Therefore you can't really say that Falconers interpretation is simply wrong.

I'm pretty sure that is no longer the case, since the two planes were separated and tunneling was made impossible. Care to provide a quote from a 4th Edition book?

You might find that odd, but that is what the rules say. Mental Attributes are unchanged, Physical Attributes are replaced. Since they are replaced, not enhanced/augmented/added to, metahuman maxima are irrelevant.

A GM can of course arbitrarily set attribute maxima for critters but any amximum set is a house rule. By RAW there are none. The comparison to child bearing women does not work. While we have real world experience to fall back on regarding women, we do not have that recourse with magic. Limiting the shapechange spell is no more valid than not limiting it. Quite the contrary even, it is a house rule to do so.

Actually the RAW is not that unclear, it is just that the RAW does not line up with the expectations of most people.

Where are the rules defining what a Spirit's attributes' augmented maximum are? I know they have one because the rules for Invoking specifically reference that fact in Street Magic. I have always thought it would just be 1.5 times their listed attribute, but that was just an extrapolation of the rules. I took a quick look and didn't notice a specific rule for it. Without a specific rule for augmented maximum of an attribute for a critter it is actually quite easy to extrapolate one based on the rules we have for attributes as a whole.

First, based on the rules for attributes and augmented maximum we know that the augmented maximum for an attribute is 1.5 times the natural maximum. This is listed in Core Game Concepts of SR4A, pg. 68.

Next, we know the natural maximum for a critter is the listed attribute + 3. That is also in the SR4A pg. 292 "Attributes may be adjusted up to three points in either direction".

Finally, we do simple math [(Critter's Listed Attribute) + 3] * 1.5 = augmented maximum. That is purely based on the core concepts of the game without simply saying that since it isn't listed it doesn't exist.

Personally, I would make an exception for Spirits and just use Attribute * 1.5 since their attributes area already variable based on Force. But that isn't the topic for this thread, let me know if you find a listing for a specific rule though.

So what? RAW has nothing to do with real world experience. If there isn't a rule that says that woman can bear children, then allowing a female charakter to give birth to a child is not RAW. It is not Rules As Written. Its as simple as that. Its is not written in the rules. You may call it common sense or a houserule, but it is not RAW. The rules don't allow or forbid it. Because the rules never adressed it. If you would allow all "real world experience" to count as RAW, you would get into hot water. Headshots would kill in 95% of all cases and human would have much higher strength attributes when in life-or-death situations, than in not life-or-death situations, and so on.
The comparison works very well. You don't need magic for maximum augmented ratings to work. No matter how many combat drugs you inject into a mouse, it will never have as much strength as a human has. I know that from real world experience, because I am an evil genius and my plans for world domination with combat-drugged mice failed miserably. That is because there is a real physical maximum to what the body of a 25 gram mouse can lift, no matter what the RAW rules tell us. (With combinating implants and combat drugs a strengthbonus of 12 or more would be possible)

Every critter that players can play has its maximum augmented attribute ratings stated. Thats because playable critters are worked out in much more detail. It is obvious enough that all critters in shadowrun have a maximum, stated or not. (And not just some random unlucky critters, that have that disadvantage, and it happen to be the exact same critters that players can play by sheer coincidence.)

First of all the spell does not make the target of the spell a critter of a certain kind, it turns it into something else (a critter with a human consciousness). Thus there is no indication that the restrictions to attributes of critters applies to that entity as well.

Secondly the spell's rule does not say that the entity created by the shapechange spell is restricted to the usual variations of its kind (+/-3) or that the extra hits create an augmented attribute. The spell simply tells us to "Add 1
to the critter’s Base attribute Ratings for every hit the caster generates." Since this kind of transformation can only occur through magic we do not even have RL experience or common sense to fall back on. Introducing restriction other than those imposed by the spell is simply a house rule.

I'm not arguing that there should not be such a restriction, just that the rules do not restrict the attributes of such an entity.

It would be nice if there were actually stated min/max stats for critters. Obviously, there is a max and an augmented max. And we can use a little logic to arrive at a number. The [(Critter's Listed Attribute) + 3] * 1.5 = augmented maximum is clearly the implied rule, even if it's not stated. But using it is still a house rule. So the answer to the question is "no, there is no max in the rules".

Also, I guess since the "slay" is a physical spell, a troll shapechanged to a dog would be effected by a slay dog, but not a slay troll.
But, what about mental stats. If you keep your mind and mental stats, would you use the control thoughts or the critter control version? Logic tells me it would be the regular metahuman targeting one, but I guess there could be arguments the other way.

Sure thing!

p. 181 SR4A



Bye
Thanee

To be fair, though, the Increase [Attribute] spell also does not state any limit.

Bye
Thanee

True, but in case the target is a metahuman, we know its augmented maxima. In case of the entity created by the shapechange spell we do not.

@Thanee's previous post: What you quoted proves exactly what I am saying. You can only channel the spell into an aura if you and the target are active on the astral plane, because an aura only exists on the astral plane.

There is no indication that those limits on how much magic can augment/alter your body are removed either.

There is a general rule limiting all augmentations magical or technological. Hence why I argue that the spell is silent on these being removed. Therefore there is a good case they are not.

It's grey. It could go either way though.

Just like I pointed out there is a possible grey reading of how much the attributes are augmented... 1 to everything for each hit vs 1 to an individual stat for each hit.

Which is why I brought up the tangent of slay 'target' spells... if they're X for this purpose... why aren't they also X for that purpose.

They're nowhere near as cut and dried as some people make out... and there's a lot of room for GM discretion.

It talks about the difference between physical and mana spells, though, not between physical and astral space (that is just there for comparison).

Bye
Thanee

If the target were the aura, you would have to perceive the aura at time of casting - are you suggesting you can only cast mana spells while astrally perceiving or projecting?

Not sure what you are saying here but the effect of a sustained spell is removed as soon as the spell is no longer sustained.

Yes that limit exists, but we do not no what the value of that limit is in case of a shapechanged target. Without a known value, in a RAW discussion this is the same thing as no limit at all.

To add to what RHat wrote, a spell is only ever cast on one of the two planes, regardless whether it is an M or P spell. An Aura only exists on the astral plane. A spell cast on the physical plane can never reach an aura because it cannot change planes.

Which means you completely missed the point Dakka.

There is a general rule which limits how much magic can alter a character. It doesn't matter what the critter rules are so long as no exception to the general rule has been established.

The shapechange spell does not say they are in place.
The shapechange spell does not say they are removed.
You're assuming that the limits become that of the critter... nowhere is that stated explicitly in the description though. The closest is the bits about transforming the normal body into the new one. It's still the old body... just reshaped.

In a RAW discussions, a general rule is considered to always be in effect unless something specifically deactivates it. So by RAW, no the limits are still there. By RAI... it's far greyer.... is the designers intent that shapechange is the animal for all purposes (limits, magic targeting, etc.)... or is the authors intent more constrained. Or is the authors intent to be ambiguous and leave some tables to run it one way and others to run it another.

Please quote the general rule you are referring to, I think I'm missing that one.

It seems pretty clear to me. Physically, your body becomes that of the animal you transform into. That is what transform means.
By your reading, if you are a human , you cannot transform into a creature with a body of 10. Because that would put you over the max. Right?

It is still an augmentation, through magic, of the original character, why wouldn't attribute augmented maximums apply?

Because the body of the character is no longer a human body. Notice that you also can get wings, claws, and or extra initiative passes. It's a different body with different abilities and limitations.

<edit>There is an unwritten, but clearly implied limit of 1 initiative pass for unaugmented humans. You can exceed that limitation by shapechanging into a Jaguar. Apples = oranges. </edit>

Where does it say you get extra initiative passes? Now you have me interested...

It does not say. It only mentions what happens to physical and mental attributes but not special attributes. The spell does not mention either whether the transformed creature has the powers of the normal critter (like claws etc.).Both facts are implied though through "Shapechange transforms a voluntary subject into a normal (non-paranormal)
critter,".

I thought that was "clearly stated" not "implied".

...not really? The spell doesn't talk about the special attributes whatsoever, so one would likely assume they don't change whatsoever. Are you saying that using Shapechange alters your Edge? Do you automatically get the Initiative Score of the critter? That's also a Special attribute. I know it is derived from Intuition + Reaction, but that would lead me to say that the Special Attributes don't change. If Initiative stays like it normally is, why would the number of Passes change?

I never claimed such a thing. I only said that the physical attributes are equal to the critter's+hits on the spellcasting test without a maximum.

Personally, I think that the Shapechange would still be limited by the original subject's augmented maximums. But I will concede that it is not clear if you should consider the subject of the spell to still be, on a basic level, itself.
I still think, however, that at the very least, if you are going to ignore the original subject's attribute augmented maximums, then you should limit it to the easily derived critter ones. As I stated before, we know the rules for determining the augmented maximum for an attribute. Just because they don't reiterate it in the critter section does not mean that it doesn't exist.

The individual stats for the critters don't display it because the stat blocks for use in game don't show augmented maximums. Just look at the stat blocks for the sample characters. They show augmented scores where applicable, but not what the character's augmented maximums are if they get buffed, by spells or drugs for example. The critter stat blocks are average examples of the critter, it says in the book that you can raise or lower each attribute by up to 3. This makes the natural maximum equal to the listed attribute score + 3. The augmented maximum of an attribute is natural maximum * 1.5.
Therefore a Critter's augmented maximum is (listed score + 3) * 1.5, and that is completely RAW.

I can't believe I'm hearing this discussion again. For the umpteenth time, and sorry but by several individuals whom are obviously more worried about the mechanics of a game and how (yet another) one spell could break these mechanics and thus tear apart their precious games. Sorry folks, but if you nitpick at this scale on here, I am grateful it's there and not everywhere. I've been waiting for the story of the troll magician whom becomes an elephant an gains a 40 strength (or whatever it is) and then have some say not possible because originally they are a troll and can't go that high. Of course they are not a troll at that moment, they are an elephant(!). Geesh, never seen a Disney, Dreamworks, Rankin & Bass movie with talking animals or curses by wicked witches turning people into animals only to find that being that animal comes with it's own benefits???

Shapechange and Transform are NOT augmentations. They don't use the rules mechanics for such. They should never be seen as such. Those of you doing so are splitting hairs to prove your point and or logic is more valid than the next guys (or gals) and thus going beyond the point of debate.

You guys are discussing MAGIC for the sake. Of course it is going to bend or break rules.

I agree.

Not quite. While magic inherently breaks the rules of our world, it should not break the game rules, especially those regarding magic (mana static should not create background count and sterilize should be pretty pointless).

Given that Shapechange might alter your Reaction score, wouldn't it consequently alter your Initiative?

At the end of the day, the augmented maximum is the most that the metahuman body can possibly do, being completely unable to act beyond that limit. However, with shapechange, we're no longer dealing with a metahuman body.

Perhaps the true problem is the fact that critter maximums are never handled.

Dakka Page 68 Attribute Ratings.


And it doesn't matter that it's magic... we're discussing game mechanics.

In more specificity... this is no different than someone making the argument in DnD what does the polymorph spell do. If you polymorph into an aberation... does your type change to aberattion, or does it remain tied to your 'true' form. If you do become an aberattion you're no longer subject to any limits on humanoid not also on aberation. The SR shapechange spell itself doesn't spell this out, leaving the matter undefined and grey.

That means there isn't a right or a wrong answer here. It's just peoples opinions and their reasons for holding that opinion.


I think it's more consistent with the magic section as a whole to leave the type intact... (slay human still works... and not slay rat. you're not subject to control by a demon rat.. etc.) But at the same time... it's magic... there is a hard limit put into the system as to how much magic or tech can change you.


As far as the question about body 10. Yes. The only cyber I can think to augment body is the one which augments all the physicals by +1. Other than that all other body enhancement adds dice to damage soak tests... but doesn't directly raise body. The only other way i can think is to combo increase attribute with shapechange another can of worms. Also I'd let the person shapechange into the higher body form.. just I'd cap their body at their augmented cap. (so they would have the form but with only body 9 instead of 10).

How does that refer to critters or the entities created by the shapechange spell? Again, I'm not saying that the attributes of such a creature are not limited, but that we simply do not know what that limit is. Since we do not have a value for the maximum attribute rating, we cannot decide if that value is exceeded and thus must be reduced to the maximum rating.


I agree. But the change in type of the polymorph spell does not give you all the advanbtages and disadvantages of the specific creature you are polymorphed into. You only get the advantages and disadvantages of the type not of the specific creature. If you polymorphed into a troll for example, you would not get regeneration nor would fire and acid start to do special damage if you already had regenaration from another source. You would however get Low Light vision from the Giant type.

Now that clearly is not RAW. As long as the desired critter has a BOD equal to yours+2 you can shapechange into it, however you got your BOD there (the increase attribute spell is problematic though). The BOD of the resulting entity is equal to the base creature's attribute+hits. There is no limit, at least none that you can quantify.

No. I am merely saying, that the fluff mentions mana spells being channeled into the aura of the target.

Mana spells (in general) are astral constructs. Even if the mage is not astrally active, the spells will be there. They travel through astral space and they affect their targets from there (yeah, I know you cannot affect physical targets from the astral space... I am not talking about the rules here, of course the mage has to be physical as well).




Absolutely.



That's the real question... is it now a critter or still a metahuman (who just happens to look like a critter)?

Bye
Thanee

The point he is making is, that the Shapechange spell should work similar to the Decrease/Increase [Attribute] spell.

Both change your Attribute Ratings.

Both do not change your Attribute Maximum Ratings.

Bye
Thanee

Yes, they change attribute ratings and yes they do not change maximum attribute ratings, but the creature receiving the attribute changes is no longer a metahuman ("transforms a voluntary subject into a normal (non-paranormal) critter, though the subject retains human consciousness."). As such the maxima of metahumans do no longer apply nor do the maxima for critters (because a normal critter=/= normal critter with human consciousness). We have no maximum attribute ratings for that entity.