I understand that point, Dakka, it's just not entirely clear, whether the "entity" really is transformed entirely (physically and metaphorically) or just the body.
Bye
Thanee
QUOTE (Thanee @ May 1 2013, 03:13 AM) 
I understand that point, Dakka, it's just not entirely clear, whether the "entity" really is transformed entirely (physically and metaphorically) or just the body.
Bye
Thanee
Bye
Thanee
Right, does the spell effectively destroy their original form, creating a critter in its place, or is the subject still inherently itself transformed by magic.
Even if you go with the full form transformation (no longer bound by its metahuman limitations), I'm still not seeing why you are ignoring how augmented maximum is calculated for an attribute...
QUOTE (Kiirnodel @ May 1 2013, 01:39 PM)
Even if you go with the full form transformation (no longer bound by its metahuman limitations), I'm still not seeing why you are ignoring how augmented maximum is calculated for an attribute...
I'm not ignoring that, I'm saying that we do not have a value for the natural maximum of that entity and thus no augmented maximum either.QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ May 1 2013, 08:51 AM)
I'm not ignoring that, I'm saying that we do not have a value for the natural maximum of that entity and thus no augmented maximum either.
Except we do know the natural maximum:
QUOTE (SR4A pg. 292)
A gamemaster may choose to alter attributes up or down, to reflect individual critters that are stronger or weaker than the norm for their species (for example, alpha males or runts). Attributes may be adjusted up to three points in either direction. No attribute may be reduced below zero.
Emphasis mine.Natural Maximum, listed value +3. Done
Now please show me where it says that a critter as per the quoted section is the same as a critter with a human consciousness. IMHO it is obviously not and thus the quoted rule does not apply.
Even if you say that the rule applied, there is no indication whether the hits on the spellcasting test create an augmented attribute rating or not. So again you cannot say what the maximum is.
Even if you say that the rule applied, there is no indication whether the hits on the spellcasting test create an augmented attribute rating or not. So again you cannot say what the maximum is.
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ May 1 2013, 09:45 AM)
Now please show me where it says that a critter as per the quoted section is the same as a critter with a human consciousness. IMHO it is obviously not and thus the quoted rule does not apply.
Even if you say that the rule applied, there is no indication whether the hits on the spellcasting test create an augmented attribute rating or not. So again you cannot say what the maximum is.
Even if you say that the rule applied, there is no indication whether the hits on the spellcasting test create an augmented attribute rating or not. So again you cannot say what the maximum is.
Seriously? You really want to knitpick this to death, huh. Augmented Maximum applies to capping how much an attribute can be increase by magic (or cyberware, etc). It applies to spells.
You can have "it turns you into a critter" so the metahuman limitations don't apply, sure, fine. But you can't have your cake and eat it too. Pick one. The spell doesn't transform you into some sort of god creature that is mystically unlimited by the metaphysical limitations of the rules about attribute scores. You can either be the critter with the original mental scores, or the character with a transformed physical traits and attributes.
QUOTE (Shapechange)
Shapechange transforms a voluntary subject into a normal (non-paranormal)
critter, though the subject retains human consciousness. The
subject can only assume the form of a critter whose base Body rating
is 2 points greater or less than her own. Consult the Critters section,
p.292, for the subject’s Physical attributes while in critter form. Add 1
to the critter’s Base attribute Ratings for every hit the caster generates.
Her Mental attributes remain unchanged.
critter, though the subject retains human consciousness. The
subject can only assume the form of a critter whose base Body rating
is 2 points greater or less than her own. Consult the Critters section,
p.292, for the subject’s Physical attributes while in critter form. Add 1
to the critter’s Base attribute Ratings for every hit the caster generates.
Her Mental attributes remain unchanged.
Show me where the rule is that says the character isn't still limited by his augmented attribute maximums. The spell is Sustained, not Permanent, so it doesn't change the character's metatype. Show me where it says that it does. Show me where it says that alterations through magic can break the rules for attribute maximums, which specifically apply to magic.
I never said the entity is not subject to attribute limitations, I said that we do not know the value of that limit.
Since a normal critter with a human consciousness is not the same thing as a normal critter just as a vehicle is not the same as a vehicle with a resident AI, we have no indication that the rules for critters also apply to that entity. It should be subject to Attribute maxima but we do not know whether those maxima are base attributes+3, *1.5 for the augmented maxima.
Additionally we don't know if the spell creates an entity with attributes equal to the base attributes+hits or if it creates an entity with the creature's base attributes and then augments those attributes by the hits on the spellcasting test. Both options can be read into the rules, but they get differing results on the (augmented) attribute maxima. So again no clear value for the limit
If the critter with a metahuman consciousness were the same thing as a normal critter, I would start shapechanging unconscious people and then use the Animal Husbandry Skill Group on them and expect that to work. Either the entity is the same thing as a normal critter for all purposes or it isn't. Anything else requires explicit rules.
Since a normal critter with a human consciousness is not the same thing as a normal critter just as a vehicle is not the same as a vehicle with a resident AI, we have no indication that the rules for critters also apply to that entity. It should be subject to Attribute maxima but we do not know whether those maxima are base attributes+3, *1.5 for the augmented maxima.
Additionally we don't know if the spell creates an entity with attributes equal to the base attributes+hits or if it creates an entity with the creature's base attributes and then augments those attributes by the hits on the spellcasting test. Both options can be read into the rules, but they get differing results on the (augmented) attribute maxima. So again no clear value for the limit
If the critter with a metahuman consciousness were the same thing as a normal critter, I would start shapechanging unconscious people and then use the Animal Husbandry Skill Group on them and expect that to work. Either the entity is the same thing as a normal critter for all purposes or it isn't. Anything else requires explicit rules.
A critter without a metahuman consciousness is subject to the rules.
A metahuman without the spell is subject to the rules.
Spells do not break the rules (the rule applies to magic)
Why does this particular spell suddenly let you break the rules (without stating an explicit exception)?
A metahuman without the spell is subject to the rules.
Spells do not break the rules (the rule applies to magic)
Why does this particular spell suddenly let you break the rules (without stating an explicit exception)?
It does not break the rules, there are no rules for such an entity:
p. 68 applies to everyone but has no concrete values, p. 81 has the actual values for the different metatypes, there are other values for additional creatures in the Runner's Companion.
p. 292 has rules and values for normal and paranormal critters.
A normal critter with a metahuman consciousness either is a normal critter and can be handled with the Animal Husbandry Group or it is not and then there are no values for its attribute maxima.
I'm not advocating to play that way, I'm just saying that imposing such limits is a house rule. Just like not burning the sniper who shoots at a fire elemental.
p. 68 applies to everyone but has no concrete values, p. 81 has the actual values for the different metatypes, there are other values for additional creatures in the Runner's Companion.
p. 292 has rules and values for normal and paranormal critters.
A normal critter with a metahuman consciousness either is a normal critter and can be handled with the Animal Husbandry Group or it is not and then there are no values for its attribute maxima.
I'm not advocating to play that way, I'm just saying that imposing such limits is a house rule. Just like not burning the sniper who shoots at a fire elemental.
QUOTE (Kiirnodel @ May 1 2013, 02:10 PM)
Natural Maximum, listed value +3. Done
Sounds good to me. I'd rather have that than a metahuman in different shape that is still subject to metahuman attribute caps - I just don't want to see a fly with body 4 just because the mage managed to score 4 hits. That would be one very sturdy fly.
As far as I'm concerned, I don't need any specific rules for this as long as you can get everybody at the table on the same page. For my group that would be: "Estimate critter maximum attributes, 'ware vanishes, mental attributes and paranormal abilities (for adepts, mages and the like) persist, be done with it. No morphing to metahumans (maybe except for sentient critters, but let's cross that bridge when we get to it." Seems simple enough to me.
Aside from that, I don't see how "critter with metahuman mental stats" creates an own entity apart from normal critters. I'd view it as a sub-entity of normal critters, thus subject to the same rules unless specified differently. But that's maybe just me
Has no one read Running Wild?
While this strongly implies that Augmentation of Critters is not generally viable. Thus no Augmented Attribute Maximum for critters.
Characters using Shapechange Spells have an ABSOLUTE attribute maximum of:
(Character Body +/- 2) = listed Critter stat
(Critter listed Body) +/- 3)
So weaklings max out Body of a critter at (1+2)= 3+3= 6
While a Beefy Troll would max out Body at (15+2)= 17+3= 20
Or an average Critter Body of Character Body -1 with hits being doled out to each attribute in order to increase it up to the maximum that a critter can be (listed +3).
The Augmented Maximum controls the Maximum possible Body for a magician to assume. Thus increasing the number of critter types that are viable for a character to assume. The Metahuman body/Aura can only be compressed/stretched so far(+/-2). So our Beefy Troll can't become a Rat.
QUOTE
CRITTER IMPLANTS
Extensive experimentation has been done on critters for biocompatibility and usefulness. Due to limitations in awareness and intelligence, many cybernetic implants are non-viable because the critter does not have the cognitive ability to utilize the implant. Other implants—such as orientation goads—are implanted to make controlling a biodrone easier. Despite the ability to add enhanced senses through warform and chimeric modifications, certain cyber and bioware options are cheaper for single biodrones that need a specific sense to be viable for mission parameters. Except where noted, the Essence and nuyen costs for implants are identical to metahuman augmentations.
CRITTER PSYCHOSES
Because non-sapient critter psychology is limited, critters suffer from psychoses and violent behavior with implantation. For every full point of Essence loss due to implants or gene therapy, apply a –2 dice pool modifier to any attempts to train or handle the critter. The simsense conditioning used in the VGI process will reduce these penalties to –1 per full point of Essence loss. Critters with more than 3 points of Essence loss cannot be trained beyond instinctive commands.
An alternative that has been discovered for critters that are overcome with critter psychoses is to upload an Agent into the biodrone. The Agent monitors the critter’s neurochemistry for rage indicators. If the biodrone becomes enraged or deviates from its instructions, the Agent takes control of the stirrup interface. This solution is not 100 percent effective, as it requires the Agent to recognize the problem, but it does allow the biodrone to function using the critter’s instincts and senses. If the biodrone does not have a stirrup interface implant, the Agent is incapable of overriding the biodrone.
The invasive nature of cyber and bioware implantation and scarring can destroy the connections between social animals and break pack and Swarm bonds. VGI must be used for implantation in Swarms and Mischiefs to avoid losing the Gestalt Consciousness power from these critters. The Group Rating can never exceed the Essence of the critter population. Additionally, all members of the Swarm must have identical implants to function collectively.
Extensive experimentation has been done on critters for biocompatibility and usefulness. Due to limitations in awareness and intelligence, many cybernetic implants are non-viable because the critter does not have the cognitive ability to utilize the implant. Other implants—such as orientation goads—are implanted to make controlling a biodrone easier. Despite the ability to add enhanced senses through warform and chimeric modifications, certain cyber and bioware options are cheaper for single biodrones that need a specific sense to be viable for mission parameters. Except where noted, the Essence and nuyen costs for implants are identical to metahuman augmentations.
CRITTER PSYCHOSES
Because non-sapient critter psychology is limited, critters suffer from psychoses and violent behavior with implantation. For every full point of Essence loss due to implants or gene therapy, apply a –2 dice pool modifier to any attempts to train or handle the critter. The simsense conditioning used in the VGI process will reduce these penalties to –1 per full point of Essence loss. Critters with more than 3 points of Essence loss cannot be trained beyond instinctive commands.
An alternative that has been discovered for critters that are overcome with critter psychoses is to upload an Agent into the biodrone. The Agent monitors the critter’s neurochemistry for rage indicators. If the biodrone becomes enraged or deviates from its instructions, the Agent takes control of the stirrup interface. This solution is not 100 percent effective, as it requires the Agent to recognize the problem, but it does allow the biodrone to function using the critter’s instincts and senses. If the biodrone does not have a stirrup interface implant, the Agent is incapable of overriding the biodrone.
The invasive nature of cyber and bioware implantation and scarring can destroy the connections between social animals and break pack and Swarm bonds. VGI must be used for implantation in Swarms and Mischiefs to avoid losing the Gestalt Consciousness power from these critters. The Group Rating can never exceed the Essence of the critter population. Additionally, all members of the Swarm must have identical implants to function collectively.
While this strongly implies that Augmentation of Critters is not generally viable. Thus no Augmented Attribute Maximum for critters.
Characters using Shapechange Spells have an ABSOLUTE attribute maximum of:
(Character Body +/- 2) = listed Critter stat
(Critter listed Body) +/- 3)
So weaklings max out Body of a critter at (1+2)= 3+3= 6
While a Beefy Troll would max out Body at (15+2)= 17+3= 20
Or an average Critter Body of Character Body -1 with hits being doled out to each attribute in order to increase it up to the maximum that a critter can be (listed +3).
The Augmented Maximum controls the Maximum possible Body for a magician to assume. Thus increasing the number of critter types that are viable for a character to assume. The Metahuman body/Aura can only be compressed/stretched so far(+/-2). So our Beefy Troll can't become a Rat.
QUOTE (Shaidar @ May 2 2013, 06:57 AM)
While this strongly implies that Augmentation of Critters is not generally viable. Thus no Augmented Attribute Maximum for critters.
Making Augmentation (as in implants) nigh impossible does not mean a critter does not have an augmented attribute rating. p 68 of the BBB says the opposite (by not restricting the augmented attribute maxima to certain creatures). You can augment attributes by other means than implanting 'ware. Magic and drugs are two such options. QUOTE (Shaidar @ May 2 2013, 06:57 AM)
Characters using Shapechange Spells have an ABSOLUTE attribute maximum of:
(Character Body +/- 2) = listed Critter stat
(Critter listed Body) +/- 3)
No, not unless you decide (which is not RAW as the book is silent on this) that the entity created by the shpaechange spell is identical to a normal critter. This however has its own problems. Anyone can use the Animal Husbandry Group on them for example.
(Character Body +/- 2) = listed Critter stat
(Critter listed Body) +/- 3)
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