To be fair, though, the Increase [Attribute] spell also does not state any limit.

Bye
Thanee

True, but in case the target is a metahuman, we know its augmented maxima. In case of the entity created by the shapechange spell we do not.

@Thanee's previous post: What you quoted proves exactly what I am saying. You can only channel the spell into an aura if you and the target are active on the astral plane, because an aura only exists on the astral plane.

There is no indication that those limits on how much magic can augment/alter your body are removed either.

There is a general rule limiting all augmentations magical or technological. Hence why I argue that the spell is silent on these being removed. Therefore there is a good case they are not.

It's grey. It could go either way though.

Just like I pointed out there is a possible grey reading of how much the attributes are augmented... 1 to everything for each hit vs 1 to an individual stat for each hit.

Which is why I brought up the tangent of slay 'target' spells... if they're X for this purpose... why aren't they also X for that purpose.

They're nowhere near as cut and dried as some people make out... and there's a lot of room for GM discretion.

It talks about the difference between physical and mana spells, though, not between physical and astral space (that is just there for comparison).

Bye
Thanee

If the target were the aura, you would have to perceive the aura at time of casting - are you suggesting you can only cast mana spells while astrally perceiving or projecting?

Not sure what you are saying here but the effect of a sustained spell is removed as soon as the spell is no longer sustained.

Yes that limit exists, but we do not no what the value of that limit is in case of a shapechanged target. Without a known value, in a RAW discussion this is the same thing as no limit at all.

To add to what RHat wrote, a spell is only ever cast on one of the two planes, regardless whether it is an M or P spell. An Aura only exists on the astral plane. A spell cast on the physical plane can never reach an aura because it cannot change planes.

Which means you completely missed the point Dakka.

There is a general rule which limits how much magic can alter a character. It doesn't matter what the critter rules are so long as no exception to the general rule has been established.

The shapechange spell does not say they are in place.
The shapechange spell does not say they are removed.
You're assuming that the limits become that of the critter... nowhere is that stated explicitly in the description though. The closest is the bits about transforming the normal body into the new one. It's still the old body... just reshaped.

In a RAW discussions, a general rule is considered to always be in effect unless something specifically deactivates it. So by RAW, no the limits are still there. By RAI... it's far greyer.... is the designers intent that shapechange is the animal for all purposes (limits, magic targeting, etc.)... or is the authors intent more constrained. Or is the authors intent to be ambiguous and leave some tables to run it one way and others to run it another.

Please quote the general rule you are referring to, I think I'm missing that one.

It seems pretty clear to me. Physically, your body becomes that of the animal you transform into. That is what transform means.
By your reading, if you are a human , you cannot transform into a creature with a body of 10. Because that would put you over the max. Right?

It is still an augmentation, through magic, of the original character, why wouldn't attribute augmented maximums apply?

Because the body of the character is no longer a human body. Notice that you also can get wings, claws, and or extra initiative passes. It's a different body with different abilities and limitations.

<edit>There is an unwritten, but clearly implied limit of 1 initiative pass for unaugmented humans. You can exceed that limitation by shapechanging into a Jaguar. Apples = oranges. </edit>

Where does it say you get extra initiative passes? Now you have me interested...

It does not say. It only mentions what happens to physical and mental attributes but not special attributes. The spell does not mention either whether the transformed creature has the powers of the normal critter (like claws etc.).Both facts are implied though through "Shapechange transforms a voluntary subject into a normal (non-paranormal)
critter,".

I thought that was "clearly stated" not "implied".

...not really? The spell doesn't talk about the special attributes whatsoever, so one would likely assume they don't change whatsoever. Are you saying that using Shapechange alters your Edge? Do you automatically get the Initiative Score of the critter? That's also a Special attribute. I know it is derived from Intuition + Reaction, but that would lead me to say that the Special Attributes don't change. If Initiative stays like it normally is, why would the number of Passes change?

I never claimed such a thing. I only said that the physical attributes are equal to the critter's+hits on the spellcasting test without a maximum.

Personally, I think that the Shapechange would still be limited by the original subject's augmented maximums. But I will concede that it is not clear if you should consider the subject of the spell to still be, on a basic level, itself.
I still think, however, that at the very least, if you are going to ignore the original subject's attribute augmented maximums, then you should limit it to the easily derived critter ones. As I stated before, we know the rules for determining the augmented maximum for an attribute. Just because they don't reiterate it in the critter section does not mean that it doesn't exist.

The individual stats for the critters don't display it because the stat blocks for use in game don't show augmented maximums. Just look at the stat blocks for the sample characters. They show augmented scores where applicable, but not what the character's augmented maximums are if they get buffed, by spells or drugs for example. The critter stat blocks are average examples of the critter, it says in the book that you can raise or lower each attribute by up to 3. This makes the natural maximum equal to the listed attribute score + 3. The augmented maximum of an attribute is natural maximum * 1.5.
Therefore a Critter's augmented maximum is (listed score + 3) * 1.5, and that is completely RAW.

I can't believe I'm hearing this discussion again. For the umpteenth time, and sorry but by several individuals whom are obviously more worried about the mechanics of a game and how (yet another) one spell could break these mechanics and thus tear apart their precious games. Sorry folks, but if you nitpick at this scale on here, I am grateful it's there and not everywhere. I've been waiting for the story of the troll magician whom becomes an elephant an gains a 40 strength (or whatever it is) and then have some say not possible because originally they are a troll and can't go that high. Of course they are not a troll at that moment, they are an elephant(!). Geesh, never seen a Disney, Dreamworks, Rankin & Bass movie with talking animals or curses by wicked witches turning people into animals only to find that being that animal comes with it's own benefits???

Shapechange and Transform are NOT augmentations. They don't use the rules mechanics for such. They should never be seen as such. Those of you doing so are splitting hairs to prove your point and or logic is more valid than the next guys (or gals) and thus going beyond the point of debate.

You guys are discussing MAGIC for the sake. Of course it is going to bend or break rules.

I agree.

Not quite. While magic inherently breaks the rules of our world, it should not break the game rules, especially those regarding magic (mana static should not create background count and sterilize should be pretty pointless).

Given that Shapechange might alter your Reaction score, wouldn't it consequently alter your Initiative?

At the end of the day, the augmented maximum is the most that the metahuman body can possibly do, being completely unable to act beyond that limit. However, with shapechange, we're no longer dealing with a metahuman body.

Perhaps the true problem is the fact that critter maximums are never handled.

Dakka Page 68 Attribute Ratings.


And it doesn't matter that it's magic... we're discussing game mechanics.

In more specificity... this is no different than someone making the argument in DnD what does the polymorph spell do. If you polymorph into an aberation... does your type change to aberattion, or does it remain tied to your 'true' form. If you do become an aberattion you're no longer subject to any limits on humanoid not also on aberation. The SR shapechange spell itself doesn't spell this out, leaving the matter undefined and grey.

That means there isn't a right or a wrong answer here. It's just peoples opinions and their reasons for holding that opinion.


I think it's more consistent with the magic section as a whole to leave the type intact... (slay human still works... and not slay rat. you're not subject to control by a demon rat.. etc.) But at the same time... it's magic... there is a hard limit put into the system as to how much magic or tech can change you.


As far as the question about body 10. Yes. The only cyber I can think to augment body is the one which augments all the physicals by +1. Other than that all other body enhancement adds dice to damage soak tests... but doesn't directly raise body. The only other way i can think is to combo increase attribute with shapechange another can of worms. Also I'd let the person shapechange into the higher body form.. just I'd cap their body at their augmented cap. (so they would have the form but with only body 9 instead of 10).

How does that refer to critters or the entities created by the shapechange spell? Again, I'm not saying that the attributes of such a creature are not limited, but that we simply do not know what that limit is. Since we do not have a value for the maximum attribute rating, we cannot decide if that value is exceeded and thus must be reduced to the maximum rating.


I agree. But the change in type of the polymorph spell does not give you all the advanbtages and disadvantages of the specific creature you are polymorphed into. You only get the advantages and disadvantages of the type not of the specific creature. If you polymorphed into a troll for example, you would not get regeneration nor would fire and acid start to do special damage if you already had regenaration from another source. You would however get Low Light vision from the Giant type.

Now that clearly is not RAW. As long as the desired critter has a BOD equal to yours+2 you can shapechange into it, however you got your BOD there (the increase attribute spell is problematic though). The BOD of the resulting entity is equal to the base creature's attribute+hits. There is no limit, at least none that you can quantify.

No. I am merely saying, that the fluff mentions mana spells being channeled into the aura of the target.

Mana spells (in general) are astral constructs. Even if the mage is not astrally active, the spells will be there. They travel through astral space and they affect their targets from there (yeah, I know you cannot affect physical targets from the astral space... I am not talking about the rules here, of course the mage has to be physical as well).




Absolutely.



That's the real question... is it now a critter or still a metahuman (who just happens to look like a critter)?

Bye
Thanee

The point he is making is, that the Shapechange spell should work similar to the Decrease/Increase [Attribute] spell.

Both change your Attribute Ratings.

Both do not change your Attribute Maximum Ratings.

Bye
Thanee

Yes, they change attribute ratings and yes they do not change maximum attribute ratings, but the creature receiving the attribute changes is no longer a metahuman ("transforms a voluntary subject into a normal (non-paranormal) critter, though the subject retains human consciousness."). As such the maxima of metahumans do no longer apply nor do the maxima for critters (because a normal critter=/= normal critter with human consciousness). We have no maximum attribute ratings for that entity.