Persona limit just tells how many personas can be running on that specific node. For a commlink, that would be one, as far as I recall. A nexus can support a lot more customers.
For a persona running on a nexus, as far as I know, the subscription limit is still Response * 2. That is not a line beyond which you can no longer subscribe to anything, though - further subscriptions beyond the limit each just count as single running programs, which then counts towards your processor limit. Now, processor limits on nexus are somewhat higher than on a commlink, and that's the angle I'm aiming at.

Personally, I'd mount that nexus (e.g. Evo Mobile Terminus, which is describeb as relatively small) on an armored and camouflaged medium drone (Manservant, LEBD-1 or Doberman) and try to keep it out of most firefights. Medium drone because these are still somewhat more maneuverable in urban conditions than an almost car-sized heavy drone. You could still go aerial, though.
This will probably cost the drone a few slots on cargo space (has to be modified in, I'd say, for 1 or 2 slots, ask the GM). But as the nexus is an additional piece of hardware, it could receive the Armor Case modification for commlinks/electronics ("Unwired", p. 196). While the drone can still be shot to pieces (9 armor can be overcome), the nexus could hopefully be retrieved if that happens.

Truth be told, my take on the drone network very much revolves around a (well-protected) center point, so it is an all-eggs-in-one-basket-tactic. It's got some other downsides, too, like having to maintain wireless traffic, which can give your presence away in the first place.
An alternative would be to get drone good pilot ratings (with all the added steps to do so) and maybe fuzzy logic modifications and let the drones take care of themselves.


You may be exaggerating to get the point across, I cannot tell, but...
If a group of seasoned shadowrunners get themselves overshadowed by a pack of unimaginitive drone pilot dog brains, they have made some mistakes along the way (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Drones only function within their limits and are mostly incapable of creative thinking, so teammates are still a good thing to have (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

where did you find that info on subscriptions? I was pretty sure it was just like response in that it slowed down every rating #of devices...

Personally I'd mount the nexus on something like a doberman that I can pimp out with chameleon coating, extra fuel tanks, armour, and some ECM of its own, then strap that to the top of my main vehicle via a large landing mount, and have it be able to be hidden and mobile. Add a few guard type drones for extra security.

for case modifications, yes, armour makes sense. so does hardening, optimization (eccm), personalization, response enhancer, oracle and focus reality amps, and various communication methods including sat link, laser and microwave.

as for me exaggerating... kind of? r6 pilot drones with r4 autosofts are basically rating 5 enemies. the "traditional" new shadowrunner, aka, someone off the street, will face very poorly against these enemies. Seeing as you can modify and specialize drones into pretty much any configuration (ranged combat, stealth, melee combat/ramming), the dice pools get just a bit bigger, and the drones become a bigger pain in the ass. As for replacing a face, I was kind of talking out of my ass, but a charisma 4 rigger with one or two levels in influence and a few of the matrix social perks can have an ok pool. of course, your rigger's likely to go down under "cyberpsychotic", but hey, thats a part of the game.

of course, unsupervised drones are really easy to beat, as their default programming should be "corner and attempt to make them surrender" rather than "kill anything not wearing XYZ or tagged ABC in this area" because accidents happen and so do programming errors. (yay glitching on pilot tests to make a decision)

It can't be done. That was the problem. Literally, I was spending five or six weeks, to offset four weeks of degradation. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) And this, despite having the "Sustenance" adept power, reducing his sleep needs to 2 hours per night.


Just needs a bigger vehicle. conestoga (city bus), for example. Full ambulance space, plus an unpack-and-setup vehicle shop? Sounds fine to me. Sounds like something a "nomad clan" would want to have in it's inventory, in fact. Or heck, a safari-expedition-for-hire sort of affair would like one, too (albeit, with more offroad capabilities, likely).






Nonstandard Wireless Link modules. R6, on every drone, the nexus, and your personal commlink. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


Adaptability Autosoft is also useful.

Question cleared?

As for a e.g. a valkyrie module on a small drone:

That's actually a pretty good example of how I handled that. I'm treating the module as something with a lot of gear that can be folded in case of need. Most of the time, this thing gets basically used as a better medkit. Additionally, pool modifiers for bad surroundings come into play, because there's no way a small drone can supply some kind of sterilized working space. I'd have to find a room and clean it thoroughly if I plan on reducing those modifiers for something like emergency surgery.


Normal jammers can be overcome with a signal rating of at least 5 and an ECCM 6 (Optimized, if necessary). Jamming on the Fly as per the rules in "Unwired", p.92, becomes much more of an issue because it's an opposed test and the nexus itself cannot properly use the skill Electronic Warfare. One would have to fight for one's own connection manually and in person...
I've also been under the impression the more powerful your nexus gets, the bigger it becomes. Must have been a balancing thought. Hence me settling for the mobile terminus to avoid that hassle even though it has medium attributes.
I estimated having to pay one slot for installing the nexus into the drone, because they are way bulkier than a commlink and internal storage instead of geckotape gets the nexus the drone's armor on top of its own, culminating in up to 19 effective armor. Those things are more expensive than many drones, after all (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Another note: If you plan on using multiple drones, consider Telematic Infrastructure software. Right, that's the program security spiders use to catch your signal. If supplied by enough wireless nodes running it, the software maps active and passive wireless nodes for you and automatically searches for hidden ones. Nonstandard wireless links just make you harder to detect.
That thing is really hard to overcome if using such a centralized network yourself, so why not apply it against your enemies?

While you're at it with that massive network, consider Tactical Network software. Tacnets are very, very useful...

Oh, I like this thread. I'm laying down a lot of the tricks I've picked up here and there...

An agent running ON the nexus, however, with the right Autosofts, could. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) At least, I think so.


Hell, yes. Especially, it should count as a Sensor for every drone running it, towards their TacNet contribution needs.


.... and it can scan for THOSE, too. Just, as you say, not easily. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


Yes, yes they are. Even if sensor numbers only permit you to run an R1 or R2 TacNet, those 1 or 2 dice can really be a boost.


^_^

For those using a nexus as a network-center: consider leaving it at home. Equip it with a satellite link, then equip a suitable drone with a satellite link and a Repeater. Your expensive nexus never need be in the line of fire, that way.




Altrenatively ...? Run a fiber from your Nexus to a rating 8 Microwave link you can set up in your window (or on a fire escape, or gecko-taped to the wall outside a window, whatever).

Next, we're going to get two nearly-identical drones. Both start of as Aztechnology Armadillos. We'll add [Additional Fuel Tank] and [Gecko Tips] to each of them. We'll also add one [Special Machinery: Microwave Link R8] to each of them.

One, call it Red, gets a second [Special Machinery: Microwave Link R8]. The other, call it Blue, gets a [Retrans Unit] instead.

For delivery of Red and/or Blue, we'll get "Green" - a Renraku Stormcloud, with [Gecko Tips], [Satellite Communications], and [SunCell]. (You'll want satellite ability on your Nexus too, of course, so you can pilot the Stormcloud as far away as you need it to be.)

...

So ... I think you should be able to see where I'm going with this, by now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You find the tallest point in LOS (and say, within Signal 5 range) of your window-mounted Microwave link. Green delivers Red as close to there as it can safely land, and Red starts trundling it's way straight up the side of that high-ground. Green then returns for Blue, delivering it to a good spot in LOS of Red, and near your job site. Once Red and/or Blue is in position and deploys their Microwave Links, they turn off their regular WiFi systems (except the Retrans unit, of course).

If you need to go further, you can get more Reds, and string them along, daisy-chain style.

Here's the best part .... microwave links are not affected by radio jamming! So, from Nexus to Blue, is utterly secure; noone can hack in (without physically touching a Red, or your nexus), noone can jam the signal.

...

Oh, and did I mention the Armadillo comes with EW capabilities? 3 points of ECCM (hardware, even), R4 Area jammer, R3 Directional jammer, and 3 points of Signature masking. (By the by, this means that Blue can turn on it's Area jammer, and still have Signal 5 for it's Retrans Unit - 4 jamming, 3 ECCM, original Signal 6).

And Line-of-sight, with R8 microwave designatores, means the only limit is the curvature of the Earth itself. How's THAT, for network security? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Your Nexus could literally be a thousand miles away. (Blue becomes the weak link in the chain - but with Signature Masking 3, just going radio-dark should save it from a lot of potential threats.)

I like that type of security however if I cheese it that hard I have a feeling my gm will start rolling for accidental scatter of the microwaves. Whats that? your link is dead because of an off-target jdam? that sucks. hope you dont get implicated.

Except then you can look him in the eye and say "Stop being a dick." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

There's no roll "to hit" with a microwave link, thus, no "Scatter" either.

And all the above does - at no small expense, either; Armadillos are 20K base! - is make sure your VERY expensive Nexus, stays out of harm's way.

Yeah I know. I think its more the nexus that hes going to be peeved about. Regardless of whether it could technically be spoofed or not (from the retrans point onward).

That or instantly all the guys I go up against are going to start running setups like mine.

Really, using a nexus just trades "computing power" for "pocket-sized (portable, concealable, convenient)", though.

And my microwave-link thing? Red and Blue cost something like 30,000¥ apiece. Apiece. Plus that setup lacks spontaneity / flexibility, because you have to set up the microwave links ahead of time.

Why Not?

Programming Environment (1/2 the Time)
Rush the Job (1/2 the Time)
Spend Edge (1/2 the Time)

So, the test interval is 40 Hours (1 Week, Some tables may determine a week is 60 or even 80 hours, but for the sake of argument, since it is not defined, I choose a standard 40 hour work week). That results in either 10 Hour Intervals, or 5 Hour Intervals, if you like spending Edge. Most you will need is 2 hits to Patch the program for the month. If you cannot generate 2 hits with your 15-20 DP's that you brag your 1000 Karma Hacker has, then he is not up to the challenge (My 350 Karma Cyberlogician can do it).

With only requiring 2 hours of sleep a Night (my Hacker requires 3 for the Sleep Regulator), you have 8 hours/day to code, while STILL allowing several hours per day for free time (Assuming a dedicated 8 Hours per day for Programming, a dedicated 8 Hours per day for Shadowrunning, and 2 hours of dedicated sleep per night, that is 6 hours of totally free time on your hands, each and every day). That is 1-2 programs/Day that you have patched. Hell, you could patch all 26 Programs each and every Month (and not all programs degrade on a monthly basis), with that amount of free time. Hell, assume that you only code for 5 of those hours/Day, that is 3.5 programs per week at that point (with NO edge Spent at all), for a total of 14 SOTA Patches monthly. More than enough time to keep your primary programs at SOTA. *shrug*

@modular man
yeah, thats pretty specific. kinda weird. but i suppose that works. Too bad its not persona's...

You dont have to use armidillos. There's nothing stopping you from using VTOL microdrones with geko tips or even just stationary drones with a suncell. Strap it to the top of a few local radio towers, and you'll have pretty much unlimited range for the thing. daisy chaining them only becomes an issue when/if you're in someplace like a warzone. Directional antennas work pretty well. Its also too bad that there isnt a test for "scrollling radio signals" aka, scrolling through radio frequencies according to an encryption sequence.

Another trick; set an agent to constantly update your encryption as per dynamic encryption (unwired 66)

(a) that character did not have reliable access to a programming environment (that wouldn't rat him out for being a dirty lowdown software pirate)
(b) Not every GM allows book-keeping of "1 week" intervals as a flat number of hours;
© IIRC, 10 programs that degraded monthly, and 5 or 6 more that degraded bimonthly. So call it 13 programs to work on each month
(d) even with an Edge of 7, and a reasonably-generous "you get a full edge pool for every month of downtime", that simply wasn't enough Edge to shorten EVERY cycle needed.


For seven programs:

• Standard 1 week
• Rush for 1/2 week
• Edge for 1/4 week
• TOTAL: 1.75 weeks

For the other six programs:

• Standard 1 week
• Rush for 1/2 week
• TOTAL: 3 weeks

Grand total? 4.75 weeks. Every 4 weeks. See where the problem comes into it?

Now, yes, a Programming Environment would work great to "fix" that. There's just one small catch, though. Where's the price to buy one? I walked away with a fairly good Nexus from one job (hey, the client wanted us to ensure that the data we were paid to eliminate could not be recovered - so I just packed up every bit of hardware it had ever touched, into the trunk of my car! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ). Was the nexus for a skillsoft-authoring firm too, so I'm sure it'd've had the horsepower. But, being a paranoid git, my character wasn't going to rent time somewhere that might have decided to rat him out as a lowdown dirty software pirate.

Anyway, I seriously dislike that the Interval for patching is a full week. You should not have to spend every waking moment - and use EVERY possible trick in the book to cut the time down - just to keep up against the inexorable tide of degradation. "1 week" works if you have only 1 or 2 programs to maintain. But not if you have 1+ dozen of them.

True, but they have several useful features. 3 points of Hardware ECCM, and 3 points of signal masking. Hard to turnyour nose up at features like those. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


But are subject to radio jamming, whereas Microwave links aren't. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

System x 3, i believe. 4A 223, processor limit.
Unwired 50 says their persona limit = system x 3, but I believe that's a typo and should say Subscription - its superceded later by rules for actual persona limits, and the rest of that paragraph is talking about being able to ignore System limits.



Unwired 50 or so has rules for going above your subscription limit



I seem to recall that this is one of your groups houserules, and not anything actually in the books. That rather limits its usefulness to other players.



You should be able to upgrade the medkit built into a valkyrie module to a better rating fairly easily, though.


Regarding program sustaining, this is one circumstance where Technomancers win. Long-term Registering is fairly cheap for being able to throw a sprite at maintaining all your programs for a year. Both tutor(come with the software skill) and machine sprites(via the profession autosoft, cheating because the resonance isn't bound by limitations of archaic manmade robot programs) are capable of this

Thanks for the correction, but may there be a typo in this? As I recall, it's rather System * 2.




Another thing, now that I've been reminded of it in another thread by _Pax._, one may want to emply a reality filter program (highest rating possible, optimized if necessary) as it gives another nice +1 Response. It first has to win an opposed test between Reality Filter + Response and the node's System + Response, but that could possibly be won with standard-issue drones, and it's cheap to get.

That is not a typo; you are thinking of commlinks which nexi are not.

Techno's don't need to maintain programs. They use complex forms, which to my knowledge, don't degrade. Having a TM buddy willing to throw the 4-6 karma for a years worth of upgrades? perfect.

@pax
I never could find the difference between hardware eccm and software eccm. if you can add hardware to software, then yeah, thats pretty good. signature masking is also pretty good. -hits to your opponents sensor targeting roll is pretty much unbeatable. Though it is a bit expensive for my tastes.

As for directional antennas, yes they are subject to jamming, which is why I wouldnt use them for combat or the front lines, however they work fine as relays. unless you're in a dead zone I suppose. one more wireless signal in downtown seattle wont make a difference, but one in the redmonds might.

@udoshi
System x3 makes more sense. now I can actually connect a few things. Also, I thought Valkyrie modules came with am r6 medkit.

@modular man
Now, how pain in the ass do you guys think that a GM would be when you say "my response starts one higher because I have an active reality filter"?

Even if it doesn't - the hardware doesn't count against program limits. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'd say it does, though - it's like "skinweb++", if you will.

Could you provide me with a text passage? Not that I doubt your word, but I'd like to read it myself for future references. All I could find was stuff about the persona limit.


I don't think it would be much of a gamebreaker, after all, Reality Filters work best on less powerful devices. The node on which the filter is to be applied is the defending party in the opposed test, so a tie will result in the filter collapsing. Drones with high matrix attributes (say, Response and System 6) will be a pretty good match even to a rigger sporting Reality Filter 6, Response 6 (not factoring in the higher matrix attributes and ratings brought in by "War!", since I lack experience with those).
It just helps if you jumped in a low-grade drone, because you'd be using the drone's response for your tests anyway, so the reality filter helps setting off disadvantages. It's another program to run, though.
By fluff perspective, I'd think of it as your very own interface in place of the one a drone would normally offer to a rigger.

Programming Environments run about 100 Nuyen/Hour to access, IIRC, per the rules. I would call a Facility equivalent cost to a Programming Environment (though some tables allow it at Shop, I would not; a Kit is too small in my opinion, a Programming Shop might work, if you have a lenient GM, and Programming Facility is what we use, since it makes sense) if you wanted to purchase one outright, so just start there.

Week does not bother me, since we use 40 Hours equivalent. *shrug*

You recall wrong... it is an Optional Edge Use, documented in the book. I think it is useful, on occasion, but not something to use all the time. *shrug*

SR4A, Page 75

You're overlookign the part where the character was especially paranoid.

He would reasonably-happily rent timein a PE to write something new. But not to patch anything pirated. Because you never know when the PE owner(s) might get uppity about software piracy.


And I think it should be a program, or even an OS, for a Nexus. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) See where the problem lays?



Key word, "optional". Not all GMs will allow it.

So imagine what might happen at a table where the GM insists on using "1 week means 1 week" rather than "1 week means 40 hours", and says no to Edge-to-half-time, and is not especially accomodating about buying your own Programming Environment?

Rules should work, even when not at an especially-permissive table. These particular rules, do not.

I could see that...



Not a problem, really, just a style difference. Whatever works for you and your table, right? I think it COULD be a program or an OS, but it should probably cost some money. I would cost such a program or OS at about 100,000 Nuyen. Call it what you like. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)



Optional is just that, Optional, yes. So, you may not use Edge... Big deal.

I think the rules work just fine, and have used them for years to code my Cyberlogicians software. You can rush a job and use a programming environment (at rental prices, if you cannot purchase an environment outright) to do your coding. That quarters your time. That is 4 programs per week, at the harshest level. Since you have more than twice what the average person has available (you only need 2 hours of sleep, remember), this should not be an issue. If it is, mayhaps you should talk with your GM about it. Hell, I know some tables that just handwave patching all together as part and parcel of your normal downtime. *shrug*

You know what I'd like to see? Programming Environments not being all the same quality. Give it a Rating - from 1-8, say. Each point of rating, is 10% off the Interval for PE-appropriate tasks.

Then price it at, say ...

• Rating 1-3 ... Rating squared, times 3,000¥ (or: 3K¥ to 27K¥)
• Rating 4-6 ... Rating squared, times 4,000¥ (or: 64K¥ to 144K¥)
• Rating 7+ ... Rating squared, times 6,000¥ (or: 294K¥ to 384K¥)

Requirements .... hmm, Nexus with the same or higher System rating. Maximum concurrent users equal to the PE rating. Counts as ... hmm, go straight for TEN programs - that's why it's a Nexus-only program. No Ergonomic or Optimised options available, natch.

The already-RAW PE, would be an R5 program. It'd cost (conveniently enough) 100,000¥, could only run on a Nexus with System 5 or higher (added expense), and could handle up to 25 simultaneous users, presumign the nexus it's running on has a high enough Persona limit.

... see, that? That's grok-able, it provides players and GMs alike with a range of options to choose from. And even if you can only afford an R2 on a low-end Nexus (set you back maybe 30K¥ to 40K¥) ... hey, 20% off the time needed is still better than 0%. Meanwhile, the big supermegacorp with their rows and rows of hig-rating Nexi running R8 Programming Environments, now actually CAN crank out shovelware faster than the Great Unwashed can consume them. Well, almost faster, lol.

(It also provides a good benefit for being in a Hacker-oriented group, along the lines of an Initiatory group (but without the Initiation or Submergence stuff): "Join us, pay your dues (in cash or barter), get access to our cool stuff". And I think it's how I will handle PEs myself, should I ever GM a Shadowrun campaign again.)


No edge, no PE ... my character would have ended up spending two months, to patch up ONE months' worth of degradation.

Tell me, does the name Sisyphus ring a bell? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

It just offends my sensibilities that something most hackers should probably GLEEFULLY use ... requires them to use every trick possible to save time on Patching, just to keep up, if they pirate more than say, three or four programs (times the number of time-savers they DO use).


That's another way to handle it. But if I were to go that way, I'd expect to pay full price even for the pirated copies (they just don't have the call-home features of Registration and Copy Protection).

Which would work, but since there are no rules out there, I use what IS out there, and that is a Facility. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Simple, easy and still just as grok-able, to me at least. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But your presentation does have some good merits to it.



I feel your pain, but that is a choice that you chose to make. There is nothing preventing you from using the same techniques most Hackers probably employ to Patch their programs (or write their own). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)



But why, when there is a solution out there. All the hackers I have every seen in play use these techniques to patch their programs, if that is the way they want to go with it. The ones that do not just geelfully pay the pittance to keep their programs SOTA. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)



Why? When you write your own stuff, there is NO COST to do so. Yes, you start play at chargen having had to pay for the programs, or you begin play and then purchase your cracked programs. There is nothing stopping you from stating that, though you "Paid" for your programs at chargen, you actually programmed them yourself. After which you just maintaiun them yourself, with the attendant downtime effort fo keep them where you want them to be (SOTA). And if you are GOOD at programming them yourself, you may even be able to start up a sideline of providing your software on a demand basis in the shadows. Not like there is not a lot of source material for that already in the stories and fluff. *shrug*