And yet regardless of that, if your character got his ware in SR4 and was ported to SR5, with no intermediate change in the implants, the old hardware would work the same way as the non-connected new hardware. You can make of that what you will, but that is simply the case. And it is my understanding that such changes preceded the introduction of connection bonuses.

"Why don't people use old gear" is an in game thing, and thus the mechanical changes are relevant only if they reflect an in-game change - which I do not think is the case in these instances.

That's even worse. You grok that, right?

There is literally no fucking reason in any ninety hells that your cyberlimb would operate better - like, that you would have better positional data on it, leading to a better kinesthetic sense or whatever - because it's connected to the god-damned Matrix. At least he was talking about vauge possibilities, if you presumed that rather than generating kinesthetic sense the sane way, IE, in the leg and transmitting it the old-fashioned way to your head, that your head was using radio direction and distance finding between multiple nodes in your leg to generate that data.

Pointless and nonsensical, but not even as nonsensical as presuming that for some reason Matrix connectivity makes your leg work better.




Exactly. So screw that. I'd rather just have 2072-vintage Wired Reflexes and Reaction Enhancers than these nonsense ones.



This is at least slightly excusable what with the addition of the accuracy mechanic constituting the same thing between different combat systems, if you presume that Matrix connectivity enables one to aim better, such as the smartgun homing in on the other guy's PAN to put shots on him. Though, really, that wouldn't actually need the smartgun to accept any wireless input, just be watching for it.

And why, precisely, would you presume that those would have a different rules identity than their non-connected 2075 counterparts?

Because they explicitly work that way. You don't get to say that the established functionality of old gear degrades because a hamfisted, asinine mechanic to force people to do stupid things comes along.


Nobody wanted this. Literally. Somehow, they read "nobody is turning on wireless access for anything" as "we need to force them to open themselves up to combat hacks" rather than "combat hacking someone's cyberware is a stupid thing." They came away with the wrong message and tried to crowbar in a nonsensical solution. Literally the first thing I do when I get hold of Shadowrun 5, if I decide to go to it, will be to go down the list of "online bonuses" line-by-line to say "yeah, you don't have to actually expose that to the Matrix for it to do that" everywhere it makes sense to do so. Like, for instance, between two pieces of fucking cyberware installed in your goddamned body.

In a different set of rules, they explicitly work that way. Why would you presume that they'd have a different rules identity in SR5? As far as SR5's rules are concerned, the implication may be that it never had that functionality in the first place.

Installed in your goddamn body and already connected via your brain and internal DNI, meaning that a wireless signal is going to be outright slower in the first place. A signal that has to go through a broadcast unit, hit the matrix, get propogated by the Matrix (and filtered by GOD, since that's apparently the thing now for all Matrix connectivity), rebroadcast, received by your comlink, then fed to your DNI is always going to be slower than the speed of signal through a few feet of artificial nerve. There's an exponential difference in distance to be covered, and every man in the middle is going to add a delay because any processing required is going to be operating slower than the speed of unrestricted signal.

Not to mention the simple question of 'What idiot makes his arm vulnerable to a Man in the Middle attack that doesn't require someone separate it from him', or what exactly stops every AAA from using these vulnerabilities to tag everyone entering one of their WANs with psychotropic IC.

guys, you're getting it all wrong...

when you enable your reaction enhancers + your wired reflexes on the matrix so that someone else can hack them, it takes the pure stupidity generated by this action and radiates it across the matrix, thereby stunning everyone else with the power of stupidity.

it's not that it makes you any faster... it's that everyone else just got slower. from stupidity waves being broadcast over the matrix.

that makes at least as much sense as any other explanation i've heard anyways.

The first Playstation 3s could be hacked to run Linux, and could run your PS2 games. The later versions couldn't. "Why not just use the older PS3s?" -- because they're not making or selling them anymore.

So, older models of Reaction Enhancers and Wired Reflexes aren't being made anymore. The companies have replaced these with a new model. Oh, and the parts for the older models aren't being made anymore -- it will become harder and harder to replace parts as they wear down and age.

That's one thing I think is often forgotten in SR. Cyberware may be mechanically 'generic', but in the setting? They aren't. Each piece of cyberware has a brand name, and probably has some tweaks or modifications which make them unique -- but provide no mechanical benefits. And I can easily see a company upgrading their goods to fit the 'new technology', effectively forcing it on the public - whether the public likes it or not - because this happens in the real world now, so why wouldn't it happen in Shadowrun?

And, I'm fully willing to divorce how I feel about this with how my character would feel about this. Sure, it might make some things harder for me as a player, but I can see an in-setting reason for this, and I'm willing to accept it. My character? Would bloody well hate it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) I say, 'tough cookies' to my character.

Something else:
1) Edition differences. Things change with Editions. I don't see any reason why the creators have to be 100% beholden to the mechanics of an earlier edition. The shift from 1st to 2nd edition was drastic. 2nd to 3rd was drastic. 3rd to 4th was drastic. Things don't translate 100%. 4th to 5th is 'close', but isn't a direct translation. Nor should it be. So, if things run 'better' when they're wired to the matrix... you can presume that earlier versions (products made in 2060, 2065, 2070) don't run as well as products in the here and now do. Or, consider this. If you've got a cyberdeck from 2050, it is NOT going to run as well as a cyberdeck now. Even if, mechanically, it would be the same. The game doesn't put that much into SOTA fade, so why would anything ten years ago be expected to be as good as the latest tech? Some things are tried and true ... a bullet is a bullet (usually), and a knife is a knife, but when you're getting into actual electronics and mechanics, later technology is going to improve on previous technology in some fashion.

2) The corporations. Maybe they want everyone to be wired to the matrix. And being who they are, they can push the issue. They have the muscle to ensure that their vision is one that trickles down to the public. They're the ones who can add features that only turn on when the device is talking to the matrix, and runs less effectively when it isn't. Why would they do that? Control. This gives them a window into the habits and activities of the public. It restricts illegal activities using their goods. Does this make life harder for runners? Very likely - and you know what? The corporation doesn't care. I can easily see in-setting justification for this kind of activity, and I can easily see this hosing a number of runners. But I see this as an 'evolve or die' situation for characters, and I don't mind this kind of thing. There's excellent in-setting justification for why this could and would happen. Does it have to make sense? Does it make things more complicated for people? Yes. But funny enough... this happens. Sometimes, when people have the choice of the easy path or the complicated path, people take the complicated path, because the benefits they see outweigh (to them), the reward of doing things simply. Humanity isn't rational, and humanity doesn't always see the 'factors' around them. We have the benefit of being able to look at past rules, and see how things have changed, but in-setting, people don't quite have that luxury.

And really... if you don't like the mechanic, don't use it. I personally find the mechanic interesting... I can see an in-setting justification for it, I can see how it would drive some shadowrunners absolutely bonkers, and I'm looking forward to getting my hands on the rules, and taking a good hard look at it. I'm probably use it, specifically because it makes things a bit more tricky for the PCs. Then again, I'd be more inclined to it as a player, too, because I'm certain that it would make my character's lives more difficult.

In that very specific case: I think indeed that the ingame reason is far "weaker" then the metagame reasoning as in "totally unnecessary and already existing".

1) The meta reason was "make hackers combat viable".
2) SR4 rules/playstyle resulted in many disabled wifi devices, mostly cyberware and worn items - which is kind of logical. It´s the same logic as using masks and gloves for not leaving finger prints and visible faces.
3) Both NPC and PCs were still online due to radio communication, commlink/matrix-recherche/activities, drone remote control, tacnet and (mostly on the side of NPCs) incompetent/semi professional teams who indeed were running wifi devices. As anyone can confirm who actually used these online devices to attack the enemy: it was highly effective, if you were able to control enemy drones, tacnets, communication etc.
4) The major problem in SR4 with this being on the same level as shooting or spellcasting was the extended test.

SR5 removed point #4 (making it a normal action), completely ignored #3 and went nuts on #2 to force players to finally get online - which they already were, but not with their ... reaction enhancers ... but with their drones and tacnets.

The "correct" way would have been to remove the extended test from combat hacking (done, finally and very good) and to make sure, that tacnets and drones become a standard in the sixth world for runners, both new and professional (as in "everyone has a rating 1 tacnet and one or two of the cheaper mini/micro drones"; not done).

And still of course there is the argument why exactly hackers, who already were extremely powerful characters and absolutely vital team members outside of combat (a hacker usually does matrix recherche (plans etc), off site matrix manipulation (hacking) and data manipulation ("yes, we are the maintenance team, check your computer") and often general tech stuff (manipulating mag locks and physical alarm system)) was so incredible important that he now has to absolutely made to be a viable tool hacker ... but not the other archetypses like the face.

The official answer for the face was btw: "well, if the face wants to contribute to combat, he better get a gun".

SYL

This board really NEEDS a +1 or 'Like' feature.

In anycase...

+1
{/like}

The problem in SR4 is that nothing worth hacking would be online. I'm sorry, but a tacnet's only worth getting into if you're creative about what you do with it, and a very large array of possible counters would not sensibly involve one. Further, complete wireless defense presented a perfect defense for free, and that is something that shouldn't EVER be free.

As for why hackers get to be combat relevant? Everyone else does, so why should they be excluded? Because I don't know where that official answer came from, but the Face gets Leadership, and given the existence of combative specializations clearly some level of combat utility is intended. Besides, playing a good Face (Charisma +4, Influence 4, Tailored Pheromones or Kinesics 3, and you're basically there) isn't as build-intensive as playing a good Hacker, especially with the pools being Logic+Skill.

The smartgun subsystem called "limites simrig" which has been either directly wired to the user's brain or is connected via other forms of DNI for at least 4 editions now. Said limited simrig up until now was perfectly able to calculate body positions from nervous sensory input. And its limitation wasn't about inaccuracy of data, but rather about not being able to make long-term simsense recordings.



How do you and your body know that you moved? Sensory feedback in addition to more sensory input from your eyes ... Parts of your nervous system that smartgun systems had access to since they were first introduced into SR (originally with implanted versions being better due to their direct neural connection).

Well, what you're describing here is a SR1-3 smartlink. The SR4 version of smartlink can do without any simsense input, because there no longer is something like a "limited simrig" component in a smartlink system.

Somehow a SR4 smartlink can derive all the necessary input data from the smartgun system in the weapon, that is linked via your PAN to the smartlink system in your contacts.

-CJ

By the same reasoning I should be able to get a pre-SR4 smartlink and get -2 Target Number, because thats what it used to do.

you don´t have to be sorry, just creative. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

btw it is solved by a GM very easily: reduce enemy bonuses and (if you are good enough) give them negative dice modifier (because the tacnet gives wrong



And yet face (even with leadership) have almost no "face combat options". What you are refeering too are the leadership tests in WAR!, which are applicable to a runner team only in rare circumstances (except if you are playing with a sanity/horror/stress houserule).

SYL

I'm not sure whether that makes it better or even worse ...

As undefined as the relevant rules are, combative specializations predate War.

And again, even if a tacnet were somehow sufficient, it is not and cannot feasibly be made a general case.

edit, wrong thread

Reading through this and feeling part intrigued and part disappointed.

I never touched SR4 and am quite happy of the fact SR3 has kept me happy for years. But I have potentially a new game to run later this year with a small group in a vastly reduced game time (we used to have 5 hr sessions this group is about 2 hrs) and while I was thinking Shadowrun I was looking at maybe getting SR5 and running from the corebook rather than my huge SR3/2 collection of data. Currently I'm not sold on the idea however and am wondering apart from this seeming debacle (which can easily be corrected with a pen a five minutes and (some house ruled decisions) how people who've got the early release are finding the REST of the systems etc?

I still boggle at people declaring hackers not combat relevant. For frag's sake, they gave 'em all the offensive stuff Riggers used to do. Drone riggers are absurdly effective in combat, simply because they can easily outnumber the enemy. Did that somehow change, or is this just the usual grognards declaring Hackers not 'combat effective' because they don't benefit as much from the sort of rules abusive twinking that Adepts do?

So I would like to point out that this matrix discussion has been taken to another thread.
A couple of rule Questions on the book to get us back on track.

Can someone give us the stats on the big three of the spell list? Mana Bolt, Mana Ball, and Stun Bolt

Also Please tell me they brought back Turn to Goo. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

Oh and I almost forgot How do Riggers differ in this edition? Have they become their own specialty again or is the Rigger / Decker combo still a viable build?

I gotta say, this is gonna make a HELL of a honeypot for combat hackers.

That's actually a pretty funny idea. Integrating the public API for Reaction Enhancer + Wired Reflexes into your honeypot, and trolling for curious/malicious deckers.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS