 Lurker's SR5 Review, Started to Really Digest the Book, Here are thoughts |
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 Jun 24 2013, 10:58 PM
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#301
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Douche  Group: Banned Posts: 1,584 Joined: 2-March 11 Member No.: 23,135  |
QUOTE (Moirdryd @ Jun 24 2013, 05:52 PM)  I think a lot of people will be house ruling the Matrix Bonuses. In fact I thnk that was stated waaaay back. The big issue most have with the way they're implemented is a 100% lack of Setting basis for the mechanics as are. I don't care that they don't match the last system, because they don't match the SR3 system, but throughout its years there has been a strong consistency of Setting to Rules in Shadowrun and for three editions the information was backwards compatible for how things worked too. That's why I dislike SR4, the Wireless Matrix 2.0 that appeared almost overnight in a poor implementation (IMHO) when it could have been evolved out of what was already in place. The mechanical differences between the two Magical Traditions vanishing and being purely flavour (I dare say there were later mods to this, I don't know, but in the core...) for a single one system for all. Decking becoming a far more mundane feeling hacking and rigging being rolled into that too (not like you couldn't be a decker-rigger before, classless system) eliminating the "tech identity" to one umbrella. I like a lot of what I am seeing for SR5 and will be getting it. I can happily tie in the setting material from my SR123 library with the decade gap to make sense for the SR5 setting material. But the lack of sensible canonical reasoning for the Boni system. Nope. Houseruled to fit the universe. All the coming up with plausible "maybes" for how it works doesn't work with the Setting Material that is presented. It's not Lazy Game design as some have said (mostly people are happy with the concept) its just poor Workd Building that's created an inconsistency with Mechanics vs Setting (or Gamey as has been said) its bad for my noggin and I've already said I'm rewriting bits of the 10year gap to make it fit with the Sixth World I love and doubles so for folks who know the SR4 "decade" material. Precisely what I'm trying to do is unify the setting and the mechanics. Mine may not be a great idea, but I feel like I need to be able to tell my players why cyberware security now kinda sucks. |
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Jun 24 2013, 10:58 PM
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#302
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 746 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 459 |
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Jun 24 2013, 10:41 PM) I guess one way they could address this is if we flip the logic around and think of the wireless bonus as an extreme SOTA issue. This has been brought up years ago and doesn't really solve anything, as the setting elements where it falls apart are the same as they are now ("why the hell does my cyberheart need constant software patches?"). The push to have everything be on the Matrix is a design conceit (again, this dates back in 3rd edition) to push the decker into the party and not have the player run his own dungeons in a parallel game (which generally sucked for everyone else). Because that's extremely gamey you can't really explain the follow-on effects and keep a straight face, so people run things in 2070 like this 'because reasons.' QUOTE Normal gear you basically have to upgrade/maintain periodically to keep your damage/bonues/effects at same level. The question immediately becomes "why?" Unless you're operating in a ubiquitous jamming and cyberwarfare ecology why do you need to stay up to date with systems that should just be passively operating and don't require pushing or pulling data on information networks? SR5 looks to finally address the carrot used to justify tactical deckers, but the mechanics pretty much necessitate a rather ham-handed way of forcing the issue or it's a return to the SR4 default of keeping everything offline (which was pretty much all stick, no carrot). I'll wait and see if the carrots justify the large and rather devastating new sticks that were added though. Besides, why would it matter if I'm running Smartlink V1.000001 and you're running V1.000002 - how do you explain my aim becoming crappier, why does the baseline never change if the connected bonus is just additive? Why are my wired reflexes getting worse relative to someone without wired reflexes? When the explanation for a game design decision becomes a contortion act perhaps that decision should be rethought. |
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Jun 24 2013, 11:01 PM
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#303
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 542 Joined: 1-August 10 From: Occupied San Diego Member No.: 18,877 |
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Jun 24 2013, 02:41 PM) I guess one way they could address this is if we flip the logic around and think of the wireless bonus as an extreme SOTA issue. <snip> It really doesn't cover any of the bases.Just one way of thinking, not saying it covers all bases though..... It's just a broken idea, from start to finish. |
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Jun 24 2013, 11:02 PM
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#304
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
QUOTE (Mäx @ Jun 24 2013, 05:29 PM) Except it's actually isn't as you can get that dice pool mod back if you bend your ass for matrix raping. Also i love how nobody has yet managed to explain how this change to smartlink makes any sense what so ever in world(i mean smartlink straight up stopped doing what it's supposed to do by fluff unless you connect it to matrix) Because, as with every new edition, there's been a shift. A change, an overhaul in how the universe works, a rippling reality-warp that shifts every paradigm a little bit to match the new rules. Smartlinks straight-up stopped giving a -2 TN about eight years ago, which was "what its' supposed to do by fluff," right? Same thing, here. |
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Jun 24 2013, 11:07 PM
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#305
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 542 Joined: 1-August 10 From: Occupied San Diego Member No.: 18,877 |
You must not have updated your smartlink firmware and kept it offline because you missed the mark by about a mile on that line of thinking, lol.
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Jun 24 2013, 11:09 PM
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#306
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 865 Joined: 31-December 03 From: Shadows of Britain Member No.: 5,944 |
Obviously, as I think Hermit said(or Sendaz).... Can't find it now. The easiest fix is to swap the +Limit vs +Dice over for things like Smartlink or replace Limit with Dice if Limit is all thats provided and ditch the Matrix aspect altogether from things like Wired and Enchancers and let them run as was.
Thing is... If this Wasn't Shadowrun but some other Cyber based game, we probabley wouldn't care because it'll be all new with its own shiny new setting material. But the fix above is simple, easy to remember and may well be the one seen at tables the world over. For all those decrying the system as bad overall. From what I've seen, no. I've seen some terrible systems out there (fully implemented RoleMaster for one) that needed extensive house ruling to work to its own setting material. This looks like it succeeds with the only needed rulings being on the Matrix Boni and Mysads (the multi attack Spellcasting jiggedy I don't think is so much house ruling as GM calling it as needs require. I like a defined but interpretable actions system, otherwise what you have us a skirmish game or dungeon crawl). |
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Jun 24 2013, 11:12 PM
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#307
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Runner Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,039 Joined: 23-March 05 From: The heart of Rywfol Emwolb Industries Member No.: 7,216 |
Side Note: Anyone else having a problem seeing some of the posts on page 4 here?
Guess I forgot to get wifi for that page or something. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) |
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Jun 24 2013, 11:16 PM
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#308
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Douche Group: Banned Posts: 1,584 Joined: 2-March 11 Member No.: 23,135 |
QUOTE (Critias @ Jun 24 2013, 06:02 PM) Because, as with every new edition, there's been a shift. A change, an overhaul in how the universe works, a rippling reality-warp that shifts every paradigm a little bit to match the new rules. Smartlinks straight-up stopped giving a -2 TN about eight years ago, which was "what its' supposed to do by fluff," right? Same thing, here. Actually Smartlinks, by fluff, are supposed to make it "easier to hit." The +dice mechanic replaced the -TN mechanic, but the idea was that it makes it easier to hit, and it followed that principle. One of my bigger beefs with SR4 was that +dice mechanics, especially of stuff like the Smartlink, weren't really represented that well because comparing +2 dice was relatively insignificant compared to -2TN, so Smartlinks really weren't all that great anymore. My biggest beef with SR4 was that the internal Smartlink and the contact-lens Smartlink weren't any different from each other, but the internal version cost Essence (I would've made internal +4 and external +2). The new Smartlink doesn't actually make it easier to hit when it's offline, it only makes it easier to hit if you're already so good at hitting that you're outperforming your gun on a regular basis, and even the online version doesn't give you a huge improvement (+2 dice again?) and presumably the difference between Internal and In-My-Glasses Smartlinks will again be nil, which leads to the following questions: A) Why use a smartlink anyway? B) Why get an internal model rather than an external model? C) Can't Gunslinger Adepts do all the same stuff better anyway? |
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Jun 24 2013, 11:19 PM
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#309
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The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
"Why play a character with cyberware?" becomes a very valid question in SR5.
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Jun 24 2013, 11:21 PM
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#310
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 865 Joined: 31-December 03 From: Shadows of Britain Member No.: 5,944 |
QUOTE (Critias @ Jun 25 2013, 12:02 AM) Because, as with every new edition, there's been a shift. A change, an overhaul in how the universe works, a rippling reality-warp that shifts every paradigm a little bit to match the new rules. Smartlinks straight-up stopped giving a -2 TN about eight years ago, which was "what its' supposed to do by fluff," right? Same thing, here. I feel for you in this mess that's somewhat overinflated Critias. But that last sentence. No. A Smart Link puts a crosshairs in your field of vision letting you "see" exactly what the gun sees making you more accurate. The V2 included a range finder and both of course gave you the option of DNI command clip ejection. That's it from fluff (excepting the additional mods introduced in Man and Machine/Cannon Companion) and afaik that story remained the same into SR4. +2Limit on the system mechanics as presented doesn't help you hit a target more often (as the math has demonstrated). +any Dice does do that (in efficient as it may be compared to -2TN). The system is differant but the Fluff and the Mechanicle direction are consistent. I appreciate that what's in the book is what's in the book and it really isn't the end if the world. |
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Jun 24 2013, 11:27 PM
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#311
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 321 Joined: 4-April 08 From: Detroit, MI Member No.: 15,844 |
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Jun 24 2013, 07:16 PM) The new Smartlink doesn't actually make it easier to hit when it's offline, it only makes it easier to hit if you're already so good at hitting that you're outperforming your gun on a regular basis, and even the online version doesn't give you a huge improvement (+2 dice again?) and presumably the difference between Internal and In-My-Glasses Smartlinks will again be nil, which leads to the following questions: The online version is supposed to be the default, so it was designed with the idea that it would give +2 limit and +2 dice (+1 only for external). Which, by the way, would have been good if assault rifles had an accuracy of 3-4 and heavy pistols an accuracy of 2-3, because then +2 limit actually DOES make a big difference. The issue with the limit bonuses isn't that they're bad, it's that the base values are too high for bonuses to matter. |
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Jun 24 2013, 11:39 PM
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#312
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 332 Joined: 11-June 13 Member No.: 109,479 |
QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 25 2013, 12:19 AM) "Why play a character with cyberware?" becomes a very valid question in SR5. That's the kind of question that's probably worth having a thread dedicated to it. -Wired_SR_AEGIS |
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Jun 24 2013, 11:40 PM
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#313
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,803 Joined: 3-February 08 From: Finland Member No.: 15,628 |
QUOTE (Critias @ Jun 25 2013, 01:02 AM) Because, as with every new edition, there's been a shift. A change, an overhaul in how the universe works, a rippling reality-warp that shifts every paradigm a little bit to match the new rules. Smartlinks straight-up stopped giving a -2 TN about eight years ago, which was "what its' supposed to do by fluff," right? Same thing, here. NO. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead.gif) Both +2 dice and -2 TN make it easier to hit(what smartlink is supposed to do by fluff) +2 to limit does not. The mechanical difference how that base function is handled in SR3vs4 doesn't matter. Seriously why the frak is this so hard to understand? |
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Jun 24 2013, 11:43 PM
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#314
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The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
QUOTE (Wired_SR_AEGIS @ Jun 25 2013, 01:39 AM) That's the kind of question that's probably worth having a thread dedicated to it. Very well, there the thread is. |
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Jun 24 2013, 11:45 PM
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#315
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
QUOTE (Mäx @ Jun 24 2013, 06:40 PM) Seriously why the frak is this so hard to understand? As I recently had to tell another Dumpshocker, it's not that people who disagree with you don't understand, they simply disagree. I get what you're saying, I just don't think what you're saying is correct, or as big a deal as you're making it out to be. I'm trying to remind people that, basically, some shit changes when a new edition hits. There's always this kind of thing that crops up, and sometimes that paradigm shift is bigger, sometimes it's smaller, but it's always there. I'm sorry if you don't like it or agree with it -- as I've tried to make clear time and again, I don't necessarily agree with it -- but the fact is, gear changes, mechanics change, and gear mechanics change. New editions change stuff, or they wouldn't be called new editions. |
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Jun 24 2013, 11:47 PM
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#316
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,210 Joined: 5-September 05 From: Texas Member No.: 7,685 |
QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 24 2013, 06:19 PM) "Why play a character with cyberware?" becomes a very valid question in SR5. WOW that is Soooo cyberpunk! It makes perfect sense to play a cyberpunk game with no cyberware. Because I don't need an edge. I mean it is not like there is magic out there where someone can roast you by just looking at you, or summon a spirit to ruin your day, or can run on walls or break the laws of physics. No reason what so ever. I tell you the more powerful the magic gets, the more everyone else is going to be using cyberware just to stay in the game. And they are going to set it up so that it can't be nerfed by a hacker. Especially when most cyber ware was first developed for the military. |
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Jun 24 2013, 11:51 PM
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#317
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 170 Joined: 13-July 09 Member No.: 17,386 |
QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 24 2013, 03:19 PM) "Why play a character with cyberware?" becomes a very valid question in SR5. The same question was valid in S4 too. Mage or Technomancer were the only two really valid power choices. |
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Jun 24 2013, 11:52 PM
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#318
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The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
Skinlink solved that problem in SR4, for the most part.
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Jun 24 2013, 11:54 PM
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#319
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,210 Joined: 5-September 05 From: Texas Member No.: 7,685 |
So the corps are taking serious measures to control hacking on the Matrix but for some reason have they have set up ALL electronic devices including cyberware to be so matrix dependent that they have to be online to be fully effective and exposed to hacking.
Sounds like they locked the doors but left the windows wide open. Which makes sense how? I mean you have corporations today that won't let you bring a non company provided device on site. "Matrix The Matrix of the Sixth World is a continually evolving beast. After Crash 2.0 hit in 2064, the Matrix went wireless, and in the initial flush of excitement and access, the Matrix became more free and open than it had been in years. The corporations have reacted, though, and thanks to individuals rallying the populace on their behalf, the corporations have taken a degree of power over the Matrix that has not been seen for decades. Control of the Matrix may have changed, but some of the basics have not. It’s still vast, it’s still used by almost everyone in the world, and it’s still home to vast amounts of paydata (buried in vast swathes of nonsense and trideo footage of cats). One reason for the changes, though, was that the corporations had tired of hackers half a world away breaking into their systems. By placing tighter control over the Matrix, they can make it harder for long-distance hackers to do any damage. Additionally, executives have learned to store some of their private data in wired nodes, meaning that runners have to track down those specific pieces of machinery if they want a portion of that reward." |
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Jun 24 2013, 11:54 PM
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#320
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 321 Joined: 4-April 08 From: Detroit, MI Member No.: 15,844 |
QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 24 2013, 06:52 PM) Skinlink solved that problem in SR4, for the most part. Signal rating 0 was good enough, no need for magical skinlinks. |
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Jun 24 2013, 11:55 PM
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#321
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,236 Joined: 27-July 10 Member No.: 18,860 |
Honestly I do love the fact you are bashing the new rules taking smartlink as an example. The SR technology which should be inferior to using iron sights to begin with.
It is (since like ever) one of those technologies which can't work under no circumstances, if physical laws apply. And you are bitching about something which should not work to need matrix access get the full functionality... Honestly if you start looking at a lot of the cyberware, most should not work at any rate or should work differently. The idea with the matrix connection is at least plausible in about 50% of the cases I guess. I mean if you go into most of the SR technology, it would not work. AR-Cloth are a big No,No outside of very, very sofisticated sensor arrays with general access. (Or your cloth would probably be portraied two feeds next to you. Somehow it works and somehow you can't use this kind of precision for anything else, like rockets... So since I have no freaking idea what the matrix actually is, yeah beeing connected to it makes stuff operate more efficiently. Thats really a big streatch after those TMs.. No, not really. Maybe the matrix has somekind of mind of its own, which enhances the technology connected to it. It does not really matter. It is not more or less of silly then a lot of the SR gear... Honestly I am under the impression that this is just the lightning rod at which the fear and anger about mages beeing to strong and sams beeing to weak is taking form. And to those leaving the window open: Whats the big deal. Your stuff works better (for whatever reason does not matter) but somebody could hack it, which would get him NO BENEFIT. Anyhow: I am ok with savly shutting down, but exploding cyberware is just poor craftsmenship. |
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Jun 24 2013, 11:57 PM
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#322
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The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
QUOTE Additionally, executives have learned to store some of their private data in wired nodes, meaning that runners have to track down those specific pieces of machinery if they want a portion of that reward." I wonder if they get mali there, too, like maximum file size all of a sudden, or the data disintegrating due to not being wirelessly updated after a few weeks? QUOTE Signal rating 0 was good enough, no need for magical skinlinks. Not if you took the mesh network idea seriously. |
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Jun 25 2013, 12:00 AM
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#323
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 746 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 459 |
QUOTE (Irion @ Jun 24 2013, 11:55 PM) Honestly I do love the fact you are bashing the new rules taking smartlink as an example. The SR technology which should be inferior to using iron sights to begin with. It is (since like ever) one of those technologies which can't work under no circumstances, if physical laws apply. Huh? It's a nearly retrotech piece of technology now, with the capabilities of modern sights with embedded targeting computers. The only handwavy part is how it syncs the targeting reticule on your field of vision. |
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Jun 25 2013, 12:01 AM
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#324
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 321 Joined: 4-April 08 From: Detroit, MI Member No.: 15,844 |
QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 24 2013, 07:57 PM) Not if you took the mesh network idea seriously. I'm not sure what you mean - how can a hacker hack an ivory-tower-mode signal 0 PAN? |
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Jun 25 2013, 12:02 AM
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#325
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,210 Joined: 5-September 05 From: Texas Member No.: 7,685 |
QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 24 2013, 06:52 PM) Skinlink solved that problem in SR4, for the most part. And hopefully it will do the same for SR5. I can see a lot of devices that have to be connected wirelessly to be fully effective. But I can also see a lot that don't, especially if they are already using a DNI. And I would expect some would be designed to not be able to be connected wirelessly for security reasons (at least unless the wireless connection was specifically turned when needed for maintenance or to check for an update). |
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