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> Lurker's SR5 Review, Started to Really Digest the Book, Here are thoughts
LurkerOutThere
post Jun 22 2013, 02:06 PM
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Ok I need to caveat this. Playing SR5 at Origins Made me want to buy the book. The system itself is solid, the priority system is much improved, combat runs faster, matrix interactions run faster, certain critter powers got helpful tweak.

I bought the book and have since been reading it off an on as my schedule permits. So far I've pretty extensively gone over character creation, combat, and the matrix. I've at least skimmed the magic system, technomancers I've left alone for a moment. I've also read through much of the gear system. I've found a few errors in places (Registered Spirits anyone?) but not enough that I'm particularly concerned about them. On Sunday I will be transitioning my home group to SR5. Having said all that and with the caveat that I would recommend the system (especially at the PDF price). I cannot say it is without some minor components that threaten the whole integrity and Ideally would need errata.

Preliminary Findings: The system is solid. However at least some people involved in the development process really really hate cybered characters or at the very least felt they needed a nerfing in the worst kind of way. It's no single thing in the book that makes me draw this conclusion but a multitude of contributing factors.

1. Ware Bricking: I don't think I need to really touch on this much. I like the idea of cyberware hacking, i'm even reasonably ok with the idea of disabling it, I just think the system as it stands makes it entirely too easy unless the character is specialized to defend against ware disabling, or has a pocket hacker, or goes off the grid which leads nicely to my next point:

2. "Wireless Bonuses" - This ties heavily into the above. In many cases, most notably smart link in order to get the same iconic performance out of their technological items as in previous editions they must now be run with wireless enabled. Want to get your starting character street sam to be as fast as that starting character mage with Focused Concentration and Improved reflexes? Better turn on the wireless so someone can brick your 175K worth of 'ware. Oh wait, if he cast it at force 6 he's still going faster then you as the highest you can get for a initiative dice boost at character gen as a street same is 3D6 unless i'm missing something where as the same mage I just mentioned will be getting 4d6 and +6 to reaction. I hate to harp on this but all throughout origins I had one table where a magic user wasn't going faster then me and that was the table where said magic user was my fiance' who doesn't have Improved Reflexes as a consolation to my fragile wired ego. TLDR: Very few if any of the wireless bonuses seem good enough to risk bricking, and those that do seem merely to replicate performance from previous editions.

3. Cheap Power Points - On the other hand if you don't dip so heavily into the focused concentration honeypot you could go mystic adept and reap the full benefits of being a powerful mage and a beefy physical adept, actually at 2 karma per power point you'd still have enough to take a pretty deep draught on the focused concentration bottle.

4. Qualities: There are 5 qualities that benefit magical characters specifically or have a specific use for them. There are zero qualities that help people with 'ware and only two that benefit matrix characters (three if you count home ground which I've also included in the magic count). Most annoying to me at least restricted gear didn't make it into the core book so all that 12+ availability gear is verboten until post character generation when you've got less money work with or until the companion hits shelves (presumably sometime next year). This is most problematic in an environment like missions.

5. The tone, gah the tone. Implants talk about how painful they are, the tailored phermones talk about how they actually make the character feel better about themselves and therefore raise the social cap, sleep regulator makes you difficult to rouse now when sleeping, etc. Basically it reads like no effort is spared making sure you know that if you are getting ware you are inhuman scum, how dare you not play a mage?

6. Social limit penalty. Ok in the interest of full disclosure, the social limit penalty doesn't really make a huge difference in cybered face vs physad face as tailored phermones will help replace some of that missing social limit. Aaron mathed me through this. But it does make a difference in generalist street sam and generalist anything else if the sam hasn't gotten phermones to cover up his stinking second class citizen nature.

So yea, I really like the system itself, so much so I'd rather have it fixed then nay say it. I'd like to see people buy copies so the development can continue. I just can't figure out why we've gone from 4th edition, which verged on "Magic Run". To 5th edition: "Frag Off Street Sam!". I'm looking at a lot of things to try and correct this for my home game so I can incentivize my players to 'ware up, but I would love some thoughts from the people that actually did the work.
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Shinobi Killfist
post Jun 22 2013, 02:28 PM
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Interesting. Some of those things like the effects of ware actually make ware more attractive to me. But overall I see your point.

I think it is exceptionally lame that a mage can get faster than a Sam, that spell shold have capped out like at 2d6 IMO. A Sams speed is his iconic power, the wired reflex, reaction thing is just bad, I mean really, really bad.

No qualities for the cybered up guy is also really really bad.

It seems odd to me, calling it magic run was not exactly uncommon. You'd think they maybe might have tried to beef of the street sam the one archetype that actually fell behind as editions went along instead of the decker who was already beastly in 4e.

Edit focussed concentration? What is it, what does it do, how do you go deeper into it?
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Patrick Goodman
post Jun 22 2013, 02:56 PM
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QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Jun 22 2013, 09:06 AM) *
...certain critter powers got helpful tweak.

I tried. If there are any specifics that you really liked, or really hated, feel free to let me know.
QUOTE
I've found a few errors in places (Registered Spirits anyone?)....

*flips through list* Yeah, that's on the list. At least it is if it's on page 98. If there's another one, we haven't found it yet. Please advise if you find more. Soon. I've built a thread.
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LurkerOutThere
post Jun 22 2013, 03:04 PM
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I'm about to fall out from lack of sleep and afraid my writing is suffering from it. I really really wish concealment had gotten nerfed as it was already pretty broken in 4th. In 5th with the lack of perception bonuses it's going to be even more of a deal breaker.
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Shinobi Killfist
post Jun 22 2013, 03:06 PM
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Well darn, I really wanted them to fix spirit powers with concealment and movement at the top of my list.
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Patrick Goodman
post Jun 22 2013, 03:08 PM
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If someone would tell me what they consider broken about Concealment, I'll address it. "It's already broken in 4th" doesn't really help me. But it'll wait until you get some sleep, Lurker.
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Shinobi Killfist
post Jun 22 2013, 03:14 PM
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The basic issue is it is very easy to get a spirit of a high enough force that you drop most if not all observers to 0 perception dice, so any level of sneaking is an automatic success.

Edit to add either 1/2 force or just make it a seperate test, it is making a force dice infiltration test for you, you can as well the better result it the one used. But - force in perceptin just is way too much.
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LurkerOutThere
post Jun 22 2013, 03:49 PM
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Focused concentration is essentially an advantage that turns the mage into their own personal living focus at the cost of 4xkarma per force. It caps out at 6 and just cries out for essentially near permanent increased reflexes. While it does cost more karma then a sustaining focus in my mind a sustaining focus that costs no nuyen and can never be taken from you or broken would be a bargain at twice the price. The high cap surpassing normal availability concerns is an awesome kicker.
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LurkerOutThere
post Jun 22 2013, 03:54 PM
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Also concealment needs to explicitly not stack. If i had a dollar for everyone that said they should get concealment and ruthenium polymer together for a combined -12.
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Shinobi Killfist
post Jun 22 2013, 05:03 PM
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QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Jun 22 2013, 11:49 AM) *
Focused concentration is essentially an advantage that turns the mage into their own personal living focus at the cost of 4xkarma per force. It caps out at 6 and just cries out for essentially near permanent increased reflexes. While it does cost more karma then a sustaining focus in my mind a sustaining focus that costs no nuyen and can never be taken from you or broken would be a bargain at twice the price. The high cap surpassing normal availability concerns is an awesome kicker.



Hopefully it can only be taken 1 time and you can't split the total force up into multiple spells. I like the 2e/3e version reduce the penalties for sustaining by 1/2. But yeah unbreakable focus, sign me up.
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LurkerOutThere
post Jun 23 2013, 12:55 AM
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QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Jun 22 2013, 11:03 AM) *
Hopefully it can only be taken 1 time and you can't split the total force up into multiple spells.


By my read taking it additional times would net no additional benefit and it is quite specific on one spell. The fact that it allows you to start with a "free" force 6 sustaining focus at character creation where you would normally be limited to force 3 is what's kind of game breaking.
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Shinobi Killfist
post Jun 23 2013, 01:01 AM
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QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Jun 22 2013, 08:55 PM) *
By my read taking it additional times would net no additional benefit and it is quite specific on one spell. The fact that it allows you to start with a "free" force 6 sustaining focus at character creation where you would normally be limited to force 3 is what's kind of game breaking.


Sure, and it probably allows you to sustain any sustainable spell and not limited by category and it isn't a foucs at all so it can't be broken, lost, taken from you, used for ritual magic link against you etc.
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kzt
post Jun 23 2013, 01:36 AM
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So they have made it yet more into MagicRun?
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Shinobi Killfist
post Jun 23 2013, 01:56 AM
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Oveall yeah I think so. Just less boom boom magic.
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tasti man LH
post Jun 23 2013, 01:57 AM
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Not really; mages got smacked around with the nerf bat a lot. What with Drain being un-healable by magic AND with mundane ways (excluding natural rest), rolling more hits over your Magic rating turning Drain from Stun to Physical, and the nerfing of Direct Combat spells.
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LurkerOutThere
post Jun 23 2013, 05:18 AM
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QUOTE (tasti man LH @ Jun 22 2013, 08:57 PM) *
Not really; mages got smacked around with the nerf bat a lot. What with Drain being un-healable by magic AND with mundane ways (excluding natural rest), rolling more hits over your Magic rating turning Drain from Stun to Physical, and the nerfing of Direct Combat spells.


Honestly in my opinion drain should have never been healable by magic or medkits, the SR5 interpretation has been my houserule since forever. I don't want to get into a pissing match but if you feel mages are nerfed I would really like for cyberwared characters to recieve some of that same style of "nerfing".
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tasti man LH
post Jun 23 2013, 05:25 AM
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Well for me personally, the nerf to Direct spells I'm ok with (because hey, despite lower amount of damage dealt, undodgeable and armor-ignoring damage is still awesome), but the making Drain go from Stun to Physical if you roll hits that exceed your Magic rating is going a bit too far.

I'm still waiting on the official release so I can test everything out, although it doesn't help that one of my players who likes playing Awakened characters is already pretty unhappy at the SR5 changes and has even gone as far as saying that mages in SR5 are unplayable.

(think he's going a bit too far with that statement, but I still want to respect his opinion)
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Falconer
post Jun 23 2013, 06:37 AM
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QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ Jun 22 2013, 11:08 AM) *
If someone would tell me what they consider broken about Concealment, I'll address it. "It's already broken in 4th" doesn't really help me. But it'll wait until you get some sleep, Lurker.


I have a hard time seeing how you haven't realized this except to ignore forum posts for nearly the past decade as regards this power as well as the other stealth gear and the sheer power of the penalties especially as they hit average characters.

An average guard with say 6 dice perception... (8 with some equipment lets say)... goes against a force 6 spirit concealment... is left with 2 dice. Chance are very high that he'll glitch. Reducing opposing dice pools mathematically is almost always a better option than increasing your own which has a higher chance of variance (they might roll well and you might roll poorly).


The only non-broken way for the power to work is for it to add dice to stealth tests instead of penalizing perception. Even moreso because it's a very clunky mechanic which works poorly... GM calls for a perception check from the players, does he tell them all to take out 6 dice immediately tipping them off. If it's a player with it... when the GM rolls the opfor's perception he needs to remember the bonus as opposed to the player with the power used on him... who would need to remember to add his dice to the check (far more likely).


Lurker:
Drain was not healable by magic ever. It was only healable by mundane means (first aid). But then a good first aid could repair a street sam from near death to near full in no time flat either.

That said, I'm fully on board with your comments as regards bricking cyberware and the sheer stupidity of it and the matrix bonus stupidity.

I honestly think it's about time the playerbase starts griefing any freelancers/authors they see in conventions. Subject them to the sheer unfun that they've unleashed on the setting. Brick their gear on principle. It's really about the only way I can think to let the message sink in.
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tasti man LH
post Jun 23 2013, 06:39 AM
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...you could state the problem without being insulting, you know.
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Critias
post Jun 23 2013, 06:44 AM
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QUOTE (kzt @ Jun 22 2013, 07:36 PM) *
So they have made it yet more into MagicRun?

That depends entirely on which thread you're reading.
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LurkerOutThere
post Jun 23 2013, 07:13 AM
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Did I miss a thread where people are saying cyber got way boosted this edition? I would really like to see that thread because I'm honestly missing it. There are a few mae players upset at the spell changes, but honestly i think they can't see the forest for the trees.
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LurkerOutThere
post Jun 23 2013, 07:14 AM
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QUOTE (Falconer @ Jun 23 2013, 12:37 AM) *
I honestly think it's about time the playerbase starts griefing any freelancers/authors they see in conventions. Subject them to the sheer unfun that they've unleashed on the setting. Brick their gear on principle. It's really about the only way I can think to let the message sink in.


There is literally so much wrong with this statement I don't know where to begin. I'll come back to it tomorrow?
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Critias
post Jun 23 2013, 07:21 AM
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QUOTE (Falconer @ Jun 23 2013, 12:37 AM) *
I honestly think it's about time the playerbase starts griefing any freelancers/authors they see in conventions. Subject them to the sheer unfun that they've unleashed on the setting. Brick their gear on principle. It's really about the only way I can think to let the message sink in.

Stay classy, pal.
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Falconer
post Jun 23 2013, 07:36 AM
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Critias... I have never before advocated for any such path in my life.

But based on much of the changes I'm seeing... I have to seriously question jmhardy's competence as line dev since the buck stops there.

Many of the changes simply don't look fun. How do players communicate this effectively... this is one of the few ways I can think to do it. Subject the freelancers to their own poorly thought out rules & mechanics repeatedly.
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Critias
post Jun 23 2013, 07:59 AM
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Before you round up a mob and hand out the pitchforks and torches, maybe you could, I dunno, get the book, read the book, play the game a little?
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