In a Ghost in the shell world, deniable assets can only be deniable through active eradication, like from an agency or a large corporation. So long for independent assets like Shadowrunners.

The response to apple was for why shadowrunners were able to exist and survive.

If he meant GitS, then that would be a bit different kettle as there the governments and corps maintain much more active assets of their own and I doubt outsource to anything resembling runners.

Devon Oratz stated quite clearly he intended to make Shadowrun 5 Ghost in the Shadows. Well, as clearly as his mess of insults and straw men can be, at least.

Waaa waaa, you just want all the goodies with some cheap cyber instead of paying the real price for them. Obvious sign of [insert armchair psychology here]


More or less what SR3 had. And like much else from back then, at first glance it was cool to have mechanics for it, until you actually had to do the bookkeeping...

Hmm. My Fox Shifter wasn't a criminal. My driver has a legal SIN and performs (mostly) legal activities, and my Fox Shaman has a legal identity he uses to hob-nob among high society, while making a number of cover identities for more covert activities. The shifter isn't one for doing criminal activities at all, the driver does them when he has to, but is mostly a courier and transporter, and the last character is perhaps the most criminal of the bunch, but in the 'super spy' category rather than on the street level.

In the current campaign, all the characters are doing legitimate work, and are above-board.

Not in SR5, not with the so often used explanation of the incredible fast and powerful cloud to process the online software of billions of people. With that kind of realtime data processing and administration, there is no crime (at least not in the areas supervised by GOD).

Is the usual problem. There are the rule changes in SR5 and with that come world changes.

If the explanation of the online bonuses is "the cloud" and if Bull adds "the matrix hates you" (via GOD etc), then you don´t have a free net, where you always have anonymous access to the cloud power. The access is restricted, under surveillance (the 40 hits from the security tally regarding illegal matrix actions) and considering that it seems the prevailing argument of the pro-online-bonus-faction that there is the almighty cloud it leads to conclusion, that everything you do is checked and live on camera.

Otherwise the argument that everything in on the cloud would not be viable (and of course it must be combined with "the matrix hates you", you cannot just ignore that).

This leads directly to an utopian world (or better to a dystopian 1984 world), where runners and deniable assets per definition cannot exist - except for one reason: you simply handwave it away and for some strange reason runners are not targeted by GOD, the cloud and the cloud superpowered surveillance and control systems.

As I said it before: you cannot have it both ways. You cannot make the argument, that the online bonuses (and the hacking of the cyberware) is based on the implemantation of a matrix that hates criminals, is almighty, all powerful, all superfast (!) and then on the next sentence say "well, there are enough cracks in this cloud system" so that deniable assets can exist. If there are cracks, then the system cannot be that superfast and powerful ... and the online bonuses are subject to modifiers, like noise, range, modifying, reprogramming and manipulation by the runners. But that is not allowed. by the rules.

Then of course there may be player who prefer a world with a little bit more ingame logic and working.

All I am asking is that the authors, devs and supporters think about the consequences for the world and the world description before the implementation of such a system. Because I have the feeling that this is exactly what did not happen.

SYL

If you take the Matrix rules serious, you need a lot more bookkeeping in SR4. All those cyberware nodes and their security, the way they are connected, meshed and where chokepoints are. It's pretty much an SR2 Matrix wsystem in each character, ICs, scripts and everything. Of course, you can handwaive that a lot, but you could do so in SR3 too.

Then he is a criminal. Ask your local judge or police officer what the legal systems thinks of people who willful and with full knowledge of criminal activities support thiefs, murderers or terrorists, even while doing legal things like drivin. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

SYL

This isn't that hard.
1) The hardware has just enough software to give basic functionality.
Real Life Eg: The Google "laptop" which has just enough software to connect to the internet, Chrome, and nothing more.
Shadowrun: Your forearm snap blades have a locking function which you can manually use to spring and retract the blades, plus a safety function so it won't spring out when you don't want them to.

2) The software is in the Matrix, used for more complex functions.
Real Life Eg: The Google laptop has everything else you need online. Gmail, Google Drive, Google Calendar, Google Spreadsheets, Google Map, etc, etc. The laptop does not allow downloading - everything is stored on the Google Cloud (Drive, Picasa, etc).
Shadowrun: While connected to the Matrix, the snap blades provide you with a one-trigger command to flip the safety and pop the blades. It may be voice activated, or it could be thought activated, or require a simple hand gesture, or look at a specific icon on your AR.

Again, this doesn't require much thought - we have this kind of stuff these days already. Products which serve a basic function, but have an advanced function when connected to the Internet. The PS3, the XBox, most PCs. You've got some stuff you can do offline, but for anything else, you need to be connected to the Internet. This can be extended to other products -- a fridge which keeps track of your food and their freshness (basic function), but can go online and get orders for what's low, or if you click on a specific recipe, orders the missing ingredients (advanced function).

The only difference is, instead of storing the software on the product, you store it online, and the only software the product has is what is necessary to perform the basic function (if any), and to connect to the Matrix - where the software for advanced functions is. This would be very convenient for purposes of software patches and for keeping tab of user information.

For example? I'd LOVE if my PC's operating system was on the internet. Mind, I have a steady internet connection which drops perhaps once every two-three years. But if I just turned on my computer, it logged into the internet, and my OS was up to date, with all the latest drivers? If all my software auto-updated to the latest version? I'd love it. My connection speed is pretty damn good these days, and I could just imagine what it would be like in Shadowrun.

It's called an accessory charge. Though since this may well concern "national security", Tashiro's furry doesn't even have to qualify there to be disappeared by the almighty authorities, who can trace their legal SINs easily.

I don't see it as the default setting. I see it as 'in Shadowrun, there is no default setting for anybody's campaign'. Each group will set up how they want to play - at whatever level of setting they want to play in. In the 25 years I've run and played Shadowrun, I've never seen a 'street level' campaign.

Having been a fan of GitS for a long time - even GitS has 'deniable assets'. People you tap to help with work that aren't connected to any agency. There's mercenaries and freelancers in GitS. I really enjoyed SAC and the rest of the expanded works, including the graphic novels. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yes, because the Grid is fractured, hundreds of different organizations, countries, corps and individuals influence it, and there is no almighty GOD, corporate unification and handwave "it´s all in the cloud". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

And yet, we are still playing runners, not GOD jardheads.

SYL

Fortunately, he's not breaking any local laws - and neither is the Shadowrun team.
In recent memory:
Being hired to deal with a toxic mage group that's trying to open a gate for sheddim to come in.
Being asked to aid in the investigation of the murder of a university professor.
Being asked to help protect a team filming a documentary.
Extricating a music star from Aztechnology - in a country the corp has no business being in - by a dragon from inside the same corp.

So far, so good. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The Driver... Drives. He gets people around, and can operate any vehicle needed for these runs. Between these, he does courier work for a legitimate business -- effectively ferrying stuff from A to B, while protecting it from "deniable assets" who want to get their hands on it. >.>

I'm pretty sure GitS has something akin to 'GOD', and I'm quite certain that GOD in Shadowrun isn't omniscient. Actually, this does amuse me to some extent though - I love statistical psychology, and the idea of a single organization with programs that keep track of the day to day lives of billions of people, plotting trends and engaging in futurist theories, thrills me to bits. I could see GOD collecting data on the trends and purchases and travel plans of everyone connected to the matrix, watching what's going on in a macro scale.

As I said: the moment you know crime and you support that crime (direct or indirect), for example by driving a criminal to allow him to to his thing (and if the prosecution of course can prove it) you are a criminal and you will be charged.



For you and your team: Legal licenses (for weapons, bodygard, restricted equipment private investigator)? Legal or fake SIN? And kidnapping (according to the aztech law probably)?

I am quite sure that your Fox Shifter does not see himself as a criminal. The legal system would probably see it different. Then again, the terrorist is s freedom fighter. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

SYL

No, GITS has no worldwide GOD equivalent (at least not to the background material available ... Shirow and the different GITS franchises are notorious for retconning and changing everything). And well, if you make 40 hits on the security tally as a decker (aka illegal actions) GOD automatically comes after you. Thats part of the rules in SR5, as being quoted somewhere on either Jackpoint or Dumpshock.

SYL

There are agency-pet hackers and incorporated mercenaries and of course superhacker McGuffin (the major bad of seasons 1 and 3). There are no "shadowrunners", who are truely independent of the system. There are just people who game the system as much as they can (and usually end up badly).


Your alternative campaign setting is interesting but not the standard.


Your lack of understanding how your own legal system works is disturbing. In the real USA, he'd face prison time even if he was forced to drive criminals at gunpoint.


Wrong on both counts. GitS has only "demiGODs", local Matrix police; and Shadowrun GOD is as omniscent as the Matrix is.

All equipment is legal and licensed (with the UCAS, the PCC, and with the Megacorp that tends to hire them the most). As for the kidnapping, yeah, Aztechnology probably is upset, but they can't admit to anything, since they weren't in the country legally - and they don't want to admit that their rock star was also a recording "plant" prone to having her memory wiped by the corporation after each 'tour'. People would frown on that.

My fox shifter's biggest 'job' was trying to rescue a simsense star from an insect colony. Hired by the corp to do this and his likeness sold as part of the simsense recording of the event. (I'm sure older players know THAT particular adventure). Beyond that, he was mostly about going into toxic zones and trying to purify the region using metamagic. The legal system ... yeah, for countries that don't consider shifters to be people, that becomes a problem. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I can't think of many runners in SR that are 'independent' of the system, come to think of it. No commlink, and you're barred from a lot of areas. SINless, same thing. A commlink and at least a criminal SIN is necessary to get the job done a lot of the time, and that requires you to be a part of the system in some way, shape, or form.




Definitely. But as I said, I've never seen a 'standard' game, run by anyone in my extended social circle, either.



Fortunately, I don't live in the USA. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) However, that being said, he's not driven criminals yet (that anyone's aware of). >.>



Ah, thanks for the clarification. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Appreciated.

You apparantly, however, failed to read the paragraph immediately after that where it clarifies that an actual Matrix connection is required.

The book just assumes your PAN is Matrix connected.


-k

YES... awesome huh?

My fanwank/handwave/understanding of designer intent is as such

Baton
2013: Flick your wrist and it extends (simple action, same as pulling a trigger))

2074:Think "extend" and it extends (marginally faster simple action, also you don't have to be holding it)

2074 With matrix connection: your PAN is constantly sampling data from hundreds of sources, the adrenal levels in your blood, your heart rate, the sounds around you , your GPS position, what you posted on Facegrid last night and using massively distributed processing decides if you are drawing your baton to defend yourself, just want to put it in a drawer and get some sleep or (the one that really needs the processing power) you were just in a fight and now some Lone Star hoopkissers have shotguns trained on your head are asking you to drop your weapons before they turn your head into a canoe (free action faster than pulling a trigger it "just knows" if you want it out or not)

How about wireless cyberware costs less essence? This type of rule already exists with deltaware etc, and it would be less invasive in theory, which is why we use wireless in the human body today.

So the joygirls can not use the old line of 'Is that a baton or you just happy to see me?' anymore if they know you are going wireless? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)