And that somehow makes distributed processing MORE necessary for simple tasks?

Of course. Distributed computing is a means of extending the computational power of a system to include non-local resources, and comes at the expense of a number of other things including transmission latency. It is therefore beneficial in at least two cases as related to computational power:

1) The cumulative benefit of distributed systems to calculate a given problem exceeds the cost of transmission.

OR

2) The benefit of distributed systems eliminates the need of a local system to 'reinvent the wheel', and query and receive existing data sets faster than they could locally produce that data.



The premise is certainly true, though the conclusion is not a given. Perhaps you could build a case that natural functions of the body are less reliant on complex computational power because the mind and body are already largely capable of bridging that gap. A Cyberlimb extends a natural function of a metahuman, a function which has been optimized for a few (hundred?) million years.

Maybe when people have organic stun batons coded into their DNA, such an interface won't carry the same degree of overhead. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)



False. When matrix connectivity cannot be achieved, wireless functionality ceases.

When even minimal matrix connectivity is achieved, wireless functionality is retained.

Therefore, the correct conclusion is that the transmission component of the distributed computing may itself be a lightweight and efficient process, even if the computational component is not.

This is obviously supportable in a number of cases where even minimal sets of data, with very simple answers, create devilishly complex problems that must first be solved before arriving at those answers.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

I do believe we have a smilie for this.

Ah, yes. We do.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/proof.gif)

Sure. Bear with me, I just got my PDF last night! I'll whip up the page I thought I saw that on. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Edit: Page 421, Wireless Bonuses:



-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Take all the time you need.

In the mean time, stop trying to say that it's true when you have no proof to back it up with statements from the book saying that it's true. Because otherwise, you're just spouting bullshit.

Sure.

It's in the post above yours.

Edit: I didn't realize that was a controversial claim. I'm pretty sure a number of the Dev's had verified that well before the release of the book.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

So for most of the gear a runner is carrying, he's frakked 30 different ways from Sunday in a Zero-Zone.

Looks like it.

Really, at any point matrix connectivity is interrupted you can expect to be looking at your awakened counterparts with envy.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Thanks for posting this, Neurosis. Looking at the poll makes me realize that I'm in the minority here. I suspect this is a case of grognard-ism, in which the old guard is upset that the Matrix is changing and becoming less easily countered by pressing the OFF button. That OFF button is still there, but now you have to forgo your shiny bonuses to get it. What is this--a real choice, with consequences? "Not in MAH Shadowrun!!"

If Shadowrun was written like this in the beginning, nobody would complain. However, sci-fi changes with the times, so Shadowrun is stuck in an awkward position where it needs a new Matrix revolution every edition to update its sci-fi.

Again, in case you missed it, it is not that the Matrix is changing, it is that it is changing in nonsensical and stupid directions. I have no Issues with Online Bonuses, AS LONG AS THE BONUSES MAKE SENSE IN THE WORLD, which they currently do not. It is not about Grognardism (I LIKE some of the Matrix Changes), it is that the ramifications of some of changes were not thought through, nor do they make a lot of sense.

Again, the Matrix Rules were changed due to an erroneous decision that Hackers just did not have anything to do in combat, which has been shown to be a fallacy. *shrug*

Welp.

I know what I'm house ruling.

Because that is utter bullshit (thanks Catalyst!). I'd blame Neurosis, because he made the bonuses, but I won't because he knows full well that it's bullshit and has, effectively, apologized for it.

That was a new low right there.

/slowclap (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

While also being an insulting troll towards a good deal of the dumpshock community (see the OP).


I'm think that it might be time to start a thread about house-rules, so people can compare the ones they've come up with and get inspiration/criticism from others? It might even be a more constructive way to address the problem than continuing criticism.

Oh man, almost like how awaken characters have to deal with background count.

Super unfair for some archetypes having to worry about Matrix connections while others have to worry about background count, am I right?

If only there was a satellite uplink that allows some characters to be online even in wireless dead zones, while other characters just have to deal with background count screwing their archetype.

Unfortunately you are not right. Backgroundcount does not get you detected by the authorities, attacked, your items destroyed or damaged, killed, tracked, nullified by cheap equipment (jammers) ... and of course BGC is not build upon illogical who just ignore the world before them.
SYL

Sorry, but no. Streetsams have been receiving the short end of the stick lately, and there's already a great deal of stuff where they just don't work that well/can't compete with the Hacker or Awakened character. There's no need to add even more to that. One of the point of Streetsams was that there weren't really locations that could really disable them - they were as efficient in the desert, in the site of a past slaughter, in the Renraku Arcology or in a basic Corporate Facility.

I already chewed him out for that.

Wireless brought up a concept which I hadn't considered; that the cloud supports an ongoing model, and the wireless model is just to provide real-time 'nudges'; additional data to keep the model current, and in exchange, the model provides updated direction. In the case of wireless reflexes, the model might be a physiological 'body simulator'. You feed it current updated medical data and in return it optimizes the system and feeds those optimizations back to you. This is the sort of computational complexity where the cloud proves its worth.

The downside of course is that now you're paying for hosting, plus you're uploading you're physiological data to the cloud. So makes perfect sense for corporate security, but not at all for a runner. It also doesn't make a lot of sense for simple functions like said baton.

If we accept this premise, then logically the action 'cost' of cyberware in previous editions is suffering from time inflation. What was a Simple Action in SR3 is now a Complex Action in SR5. The issue here is twofold;
1) There's nothing in the rules to indicate this is the case (I ASSUME! Like I said, I haven't read the rule-books. But I feel okay going out on this limb.)
2) The inflation shouldn't be limited to cyberware. If cyberware is 20% faster, then either magical spells, physical adepts, and normal people are also going faster for some reason, or, well, it's all just one giant retcon and cyber was never comparable in speed to magic in the first place.

The cloud model also brings up a lot more potential plot hooks. After all, this data is there, on a server somewhere. Renraku's rockin' cyberzombie is fully modeled, and a hacker can access that server, download the information to determine vulnerabilities, implant logic bombs, even remote control the zombie.

Again: could we please stop to turn to an Tactical Computer /TacNet as an attempt to explain the new monopoly-matrix?

SYL

As I'm envisioning such a system, it seems like there would need to be a way to make data calls anonymously, and that the system would implicitly trust that such calls are valid, and would respond to them. Now, it turns out that in the real world a number of our networking protocols do have a degree of implicit trust...

...Unfortunately, this is also a headache that has created numerous opportunities for malicious actors to compromise our real life distributed systems. I don't think I'd need to innumerate them for you, Nezumi, but for the benefit of additional posters such attacks would include things like the venerable SYN Floods, or various resource exhaustion Denial of Service attacks.

That said...

...this does sort of play into the theme of a Grid Overwatch Division, and a running Tally that deckers accumulate.

For instance, while the system may temporarily appear to extend implicit trust, it appears that there are heuristics which allow the subversion of the system to be identified over time, which prompts GOD intervention. Without a great deal of scrutiny, and sidestepping the obvious choice of automated, coordinated DDOS, it seems like such system architecture is possible.

...Or at least, possible in so much as 60 years of technological advancement may provide.



I haven't seen anything in the rule book that explicitly states that there has been a time inflation, though there are a number of possible implicit nods in that direction. Perhaps the most notably is new ranged combat rules, attack actions, and simple/complex actions.



"And where shall I go now?

The net is vast and limitless." -Closing line, Major Motoko Kusanagi, GITS

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Matrix packets are anonymous, so authorities can not track you by only your cyberware. Unless you've been hacked, then they can icon trace you, but that'd be like being spotted in astral or physical and having someone shadowing you, except easier to get rid of because; losing someone shadowing you can be difficult, but turning off your wireless is pretty easy.

Awaken characters have to worry about their foci being destroyed from astral because an active foci is dual natured.

Deckers can't kill a Street Sam from the Matrix, unless that Street Sam is in hot sim VR. So that's a mute point.

And while jammers might be "cheap" they are forbidden, so not exactly readily available to your average ganger or starter shadowrunner. And while the awaken don't have to worry about it yet, but they will have to worry about FABIII and mana static in supplement books. Which means they will have to worry about similar threats, but they have less ways to counter it then a Street Sam does, because a sammy could always have some ECCM, while awaken character's don't have something equivalent for astral space.

Sure they do...
Just don't be in Astral Space.
Or take the Cleansing and Filtering Metamagics.
Or use the Aspected Mana Static Spell.

See, Easy Peasy, Problem Solved. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Does SR5 even have background count? Background count is another thing I was not fond of. The penalties were too severe (especially for adepts), and instead of a rare anomaly to make things like bug hives even more fearsome, it was ubiquitous. If an entire city can be background count 1 or 2, it is like flat out lopping off magic points from characters for no reason whatsoever.

I hope if they do reintroduce it, they tone down the penalties and make it more rare. Assuming it isn't already in the core rules, that is.

While 'Background Count' does appear in the text of one of the Qualities, it does not appear anywhere else in the Core Book.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

I haven't read the awaken chapter yet, but doing a quick search of the pdf, it does look like there is no rules for background count. There is some fluff mention of it with Assensing tests, but that's about it.