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WorkOver
post Aug 2 2013, 11:42 PM
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QUOTE (Bull @ Aug 2 2013, 04:05 PM) *
They have edge. F/2. But players cannot have them spend it. they can certainly spend it themselves.


Is this a case of a writer for the system not knowing the rules?

Page 304 is pretty clear Bull....

QUOTE
Summoned and bound spirits don’t have their own
Edge pools (or if they do, they don’t use them). However,
you can spend your own Edge pool on your summoned
spirits’ tests if you like.


How does that mesh with what you just said, at all?
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Shinobi Killfist
post Aug 2 2013, 11:51 PM
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QUOTE (Doc Chaos @ Aug 2 2013, 05:21 AM) *
Which you can't use unless you use a rather high priority into Magic and spend points on the Magic attribute.


And the street sam pays a high investment to be one. The street sam does not have the spend 6 skill points to overshadow the mage at magic option though. .
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Bull
post Aug 2 2013, 11:54 PM
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QUOTE (WorkOver @ Aug 2 2013, 07:42 PM) *
Is this a case of a writer for the system not knowing the rules?

Page 304 is pretty clear Bull....

How does that mesh with what you just said, at all?


Summoned and Bound is the key.

They have Edge when they're not summoned or bound. Like while free. or while in the metaplanes being summoned.

if the spirits don't like you, and they see your number on Speed Dial, they can and should be spending edge to resist that summon.
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Bull
post Aug 2 2013, 11:55 PM
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And yes, that should have been made more clear, I suspect. But since tehre are no rules for Free Spirits in the book, and their stat blocks clearly have an Edge score, there's some implied stuff going on here.
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WorkOver
post Aug 3 2013, 12:29 AM
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QUOTE (Bull @ Aug 2 2013, 06:54 PM) *
Summoned and Bound is the key.

They have Edge when they're not summoned or bound. Like while free. or while in the metaplanes being summoned.

if the spirits don't like you, and they see your number on Speed Dial, they can and should be spending edge to resist that summon.


That needs to be made COMPLETELY clear. That will b e what keeps summoning in check. As you typed this, I was on the official boards asking if spirits are considered free before you summon them.

You guys need to comb through this book, fix the myriad of screw ups, typos, and murky stuff and get a second printing out ASAP.
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Shortstraw
post Aug 3 2013, 12:41 AM
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Yelling about this stuff belongs in the errata thread next door.
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PriorityKarmaGen
post Aug 3 2013, 12:46 AM
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How do you make spirits like you? The cost better be damn high because high Force spirits are really powerful.
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WorkOver
post Aug 3 2013, 12:56 AM
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QUOTE (PriorityKarmaGen @ Aug 2 2013, 07:46 PM) *
How do you make spirits like you? The cost better be damn high because high Force spirits are really powerful.


I would imagine if you kept the spirits domain clean, and stopped others from defiling thier domain would help.

Not sending spirits on suicide missions would help. Maybe not using binding a lot would help. Nothing rules wise, but plenty of roleplaying it out.

QUOTE
Yelling about this stuff belongs in the errata thread next door.


Who is yelling, and this isn't errata. it does not belong in an errata thread.
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kerbarian
post Aug 3 2013, 01:31 AM
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QUOTE (Bull @ Aug 2 2013, 04:55 PM) *
And yes, that should have been made more clear, I suspect. But since tehre are no rules for Free Spirits in the book, and their stat blocks clearly have an Edge score, there's some implied stuff going on here.

The description of spirits at the top of p.303 says "They're usually only found when a magician summons them, but there are many free spirits who live unbound on the material plane." Even if there aren't expanded rules for free spirits (like we'll probably see in the magic book), free spirits are still things that runners could encounter in the base rules, just like critters. Those free spirits would clearly have Edge (per the stat blocks), and I don't see that as being inconsistent with the statement that summoned spirits don't have Edge.

Then there's the distinction between whether a spirit is "being summoned" or "summoned". Unless the process of summoning actually destroys the spirit's Edge attribute, I can't see how spirits resisting with Edge is consistent with the rule that after they're summoned they have no Edge pools. I don't believe the aside that "or if they do, they don't use them" changes anything -- if spirits resisted summoning with Edge, there would be no doubt that they have Edge pools and just choose not to use them afterwards. Also, a spirit is already summoned at the time you bind it; even when making a distinction between "being summoned" and "summoned", spirits couldn't use Edge to resist binding.

It all looks pretty clear and consistent to me as written. I'll readily believe the intent was for spirits to be able to use Edge to resist summoning, but I don't see how that's consistent with what ended up in the book.

I think that summoned spirits as written are a significant balance issue, so I'd be happy to see some changes to that in the errata. Having spirits resist summoning with Edge isn't my favorite solution since I think it can lead to a more adversarial relationship between players and the GM, but it is a way to make summoning riskier (though not directly less powerful).
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RHat
post Aug 3 2013, 01:38 AM
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QUOTE (kerbarian @ Aug 2 2013, 07:31 PM) *
Then there's the distinction between whether a spirit is "being summoned" or "summoned". Unless the process of summoning actually destroys the spirit's Edge attribute, I can't see how spirits resisting with Edge is consistent with the rule that after they're summoned they have no Edge pools.


They have and can use Edge until they are summoned. They cannot use Edge once they've been summoned. They are not considered summoned, however, until after the roll is resolved - so how is it in anyway inconsistent for them to have Edge for that roll, when they clearly haven't been summoned yet.
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nylanfs
post Aug 3 2013, 01:53 AM
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QUOTE (PriorityKarmaGen @ Aug 2 2013, 08:46 PM) *
How do you make spirits like you? The cost better be damn high because high Force spirits are really powerful.


Don't be a dick.
[edit] To the spirits I mean, not the poster making the the post (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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kerbarian
post Aug 3 2013, 01:58 AM
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QUOTE (RHat @ Aug 2 2013, 06:38 PM) *
They have and can use Edge until they are summoned. They cannot use Edge once they've been summoned. They are not considered summoned, however, until after the roll is resolved - so how is it in anyway inconsistent for them to have Edge for that roll, when they clearly haven't been summoned yet.

The rule doesn't say they cannot use Edge -- it says "they don't have their own Edge pools". If a spirit just used Edge to resist summoning, clearly it has an Edge pool, which is inconsistent with what's written.

The next point, of course, is the aside "(or if they do, they don't use them)". If spirits use Edge to resist summoning and clearly do have Edge pools, that's still not consistent with a world where no one can tell the difference between summoned spirits not having Edge pools vs. just not using them.
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RHat
post Aug 3 2013, 02:43 AM
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QUOTE (kerbarian @ Aug 2 2013, 06:58 PM) *
The rule doesn't say they cannot use Edge -- it says "they don't have their own Edge pools". If a spirit just used Edge to resist summoning, clearly it has an Edge pool, which is inconsistent with what's written.

The next point, of course, is the aside "(or if they do, they don't use them)". If spirits use Edge to resist summoning and clearly do have Edge pools, that's still not consistent with a world where no one can tell the difference between summoned spirits not having Edge pools vs. just not using them.


That rule specifies summoned and bound spirits - and that they don't have an Edge pool. Basically, once they've been summoned, it's the same as if they'd spent all their Edge, only they don't get a refresh unless they go free. But that only applies AFTER the conjurer has scored net hits, which means that when they're rolling their resistance they still have an Edge pool.
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GloriousRuse
post Aug 3 2013, 02:47 AM
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QUOTE (Shortstraw @ Aug 2 2013, 12:27 AM) *
Actually it costs 2-5 special attribute points, 4 attribute points, 4-25 skill points, and 44k-175k nuyen based upon your priority order.


Many people have correctly identified this as a base cost for being a mage, not for summoning. Summoning, as one poster said, is an insignificant marginal cost.

So, really, what your saying is that the opportunity cost for being able to call up a spirit that can near-peer a Sam (or at the very least a 15k drone) and has vast utility for 1-3S is...being powerful in other magics with a very solid attribute build, about as much cash left at the get go as anyone else, having two support magical skills at 4 or 5, having to buy a power foci that helps everything else you do and would have bought anyhow, being stated and equipped to survive most direct gunfire before stunbolting the shooter?

Plus those 6 (7 for specialization) skill points that were going to go into aeronautical engineering?

QUOTE (Eratosthenes @ Aug 2 2013, 11:16 AM) *
I think one thing that is often glossed over is that 3S isn't nothing. Especially as there's a chance that it could be more, and at a very bad time. You're taking damage for a useful and flexible power.

I haven't finished reading the book (just dl'ed it last night), doesn't it take time to 1) summon, then 2) have the spirit materialize, then 3) actually do something? All actions a sam could be simply shooting the mage, or a hacker doing hackery things?

These are all costs.


Typically people conjure up their spirits prior to kick off. Or after crossing the wards. Only in the highest of high security facilities or in the worst shitstorm of things gone wrong (namely the prior spirit died) would the spirit actually be summoned as bullets are zipping around the jackpoint/WAN/LAN while the hacker is hacking and the Sammies are hurling back grenades. So the time cost is irrelevant a great deal of the time.

As for the chance it could be more...its a .003% chance in our example for a 5/5 hits. Which is what will be needed to challenge a summoning dice pool of 15+ on even or near even terms. In which case our summoner edges his drain, and now maybe has 4 or 5S...still a mere -1 DP, and hey, you have a high WP kicking your stun condition monitor up there anyhow.

Of course, given the 12 hour service window, if you summon a few hours before kick off, you can rest that off too, but ignoring that...it still is a pitifully small cost for what you get, which is a spirit that ranges from "at least a good as a combat drone" to "another runner" and has a whole bag of magic tricks up its sleeve.

-----------------------

All of which is only governed by a GM taking the time to curb it. Which is directly contrary to everyone else's "you pay for your edge, one way or another."







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Jaid
post Aug 3 2013, 04:34 AM
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QUOTE (Bull @ Aug 2 2013, 04:05 PM) *
They have edge. F/2. But players cannot have them spend it. they can certainly spend it themselves.


in that case, you should probably change the text that explicitly states they either don't have it or never use it. because if they do have it, and can use it for themselves, well... obviously the statement that they don't have or never use it would be wrong.
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Glyph
post Aug 3 2013, 06:20 AM
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PCs "pay" for their abilities by expending their limited allocations of starting resources. Not everything semi-effective that a player does needs to screw him over somehow. Jeez. It's not Harrison Bergeron, the role-playing game - it comes too damn close to that, already.
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quentra
post Aug 3 2013, 06:29 AM
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QUOTE (Glyph @ Aug 3 2013, 01:20 AM) *
PCs "pay" for their abilities by expending their limited allocations of starting resources. Not everything semi-effective that a player does needs to screw him over somehow. Jeez. It's not Harrison Bergeron, the role-playing game - it comes too damn close to that, already.


We should make mages wear huge and clunky headsets that blast them with horribly-loud and clashing noise every time they try to cast a spell.
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Elfenlied
post Aug 3 2013, 07:53 AM
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QUOTE (GloriousRuse @ Aug 3 2013, 03:47 AM) *
Many people have correctly identified this as a base cost for being a mage, not for summoning. Summoning, as one poster said, is an insignificant marginal cost.


By the same token, so is spellcasting and any other magical skill. Summoning is pretty much 50% of the reason why people play mages (the other half being spellcasting), so the cost is not marginal.

Have you actually played a Mage in SR5?
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Tzeentch
post Aug 3 2013, 09:51 AM
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QUOTE (RHat @ Aug 3 2013, 02:43 AM) *
That rule specifies summoned and bound spirits - and that they don't have an Edge pool. Basically, once they've been summoned, it's the same as if they'd spent all their Edge, only they don't get a refresh unless they go free. But that only applies AFTER the conjurer has scored net hits, which means that when they're rolling their resistance they still have an Edge pool.

-- Well that's a pretty tortuous 'interpretation.' Especially as the writers went out of the way to have an entire rules heading that says clearly they don't have, or can't use, Edge. There's zero rules support for them being able to spend Edge of any flavor or wording to resist a summoning or binding.

-- Are they Grunts? They are the only entity in the game that have Edge pool (see Group Edge, p. 380), so it's more likely that Edge points is what was intended.
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Shortstraw
post Aug 3 2013, 10:39 AM
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QUOTE (WorkOver @ Aug 3 2013, 10:29 AM) *
That needs to be made COMPLETELY clear. That will b e what keeps summoning in check. As you typed this, I was on the official boards asking if spirits are considered free before you summon them.

Caps is raising your voice.

QUOTE (WorkOver @ Aug 3 2013, 10:29 AM) *
You guys need to comb through this book, fix the myriad of screw ups, typos, and murky stuff and get a second printing out ASAP.

This is asking for errata.
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Thanee
post Aug 3 2013, 10:52 AM
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QUOTE (GloriousRuse @ Aug 1 2013, 10:44 PM) *
Before getting in to the mechanical argument - and we will, shortly - lets look at the simple fact that this spirit costs nothing. Effectively nothing. You get something for free. In a world where "everything costs", the spirit costs nothing.

Now, Whether you play at a table where an F5 is a beast or "just a drone", your getting a whole lot of something (be that a "mere" combat drone or a rocking Sammie as your table may vary) for nothing. Which is directly contrary to everything else in the game. The entire purpose is that you never get a free lunch, but spirits are. They are literal free firepower, free tasks, free eyes, free bullet sponges. Free, free, free. Or, at a few drain each, so close to free that its irrelvant. No nuyen needed, no acquisition, no need to smuggle them in..nothing. Just "whoop, here you go. Oh, here is an inconvenient stun that probably won't even affect your DP".


On average, Drain isn't much, but it can easily be a lot on a good Resistance Test.

And if you are summoning F>M spirits, Drain is physical (and cannot be healed by magical means, so unless you have a competent doc around it will stay with you for a while).

That definitely is a cost in my eyes.

Bye
Thanee
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Irion
post Aug 3 2013, 11:29 AM
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QUOTE (Thanee @ Aug 3 2013, 11:52 AM) *
On average, Drain isn't much, but it can easily be a lot on a good Resistance Test.

And if you are summoning F>M spirits, Drain is physical (and cannot be healed by magical means, so unless you have a competent doc around it will stay with you for a while).

That definitely is a cost in my eyes.

Bye
Thanee

Well, at least in 5 it is not to be healed by a doc either. (I mean an hermetic mage just needed to skill first aid and be done with it)

But it is still only damage. Something you will also get if somebody shoots you. If you are able to soak it, you will have payed nothing at all.
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TeOdio
post Aug 3 2013, 05:32 PM
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QUOTE (kerbarian @ Aug 1 2013, 08:40 PM) *
In SR5, summoned spirits have no Edge to spend resisting -- apparently Edge is only for free spirits. p.304 "Summoned and bound spirits don’t have their own Edge pools (or if they do, they don’t use them)."

They have Edge equal to half their force. They do Not have edge to spend on the summoner's behalf. The summoner has to spend their edge for the spirit they are in control of.
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Shinobi Killfist
post Aug 3 2013, 05:44 PM
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QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Aug 3 2013, 02:53 AM) *
By the same token, so is spellcasting and any other magical skill. Summoning is pretty much 50% of the reason why people play mages (the other half being spellcasting), so the cost is not marginal.

Have you actually played a Mage in SR5?


and a 100% of the reason a street sam played a street sam is to be a stret sam. Why is it cool for the mages 50% reason allow him to summon up pocket better street sams than the street sam? Have you played a street sam in a game where the mage actually summons powerful spirits? I'd say they were playing second fiddle to the spirits but they are so much worse they really shouldn't even be in the band.
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Sendaz
post Aug 3 2013, 06:04 PM
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Unfortunately I do not think there will be any one answer to the issue short of capping spirits to Force = Magic, so that only advanced initiates could bring down a F10 +.

An exception for this could be if done as a ritual so a magical group can summon higher Force using the highest Magic in group plus 1 per additional participant or something similar.

That will not remove the problem, but give a breathing space for those coming out of chargen before they can bring on the wrecking ball.

Please note I am not in favour of capping it like this, but looking at all options is sometimes a way to find a better solution.

A good questions is how much does the GM really interact in the summoning? If you are summoning something effectively more powerful than yourself (ie higher force than your magic), how much personality does the GM put into it or is it just a magical version of a drone that you basically point and shoot with? A higher level spirit will do as you command, but may bicker or try to weasel the intent if it seems plausible.

But the problem is its not something you can put down into paper easily and you need a system that will work across the board for everyone.
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