SR5 themes itself on "paying the price." Magic drains you, ware eats your (meta)humanity, being a Decker means exposing your mind to frying for that bit of an edge and probably hundreds of thousands of nuyen. Its even got its own intro. But lets look at one thing that has virtually no price in return for overwhelming power: spirits.

Oh, they've got plenty of fluff on how spirits are inscrutable, and should be treated reasonably, and that summoning might want to include some offering and a spiritual link. That they may get angry, and get you a bad rap, for overuse or incorrect use. All sorts of "soft" restrictions that require a GM to enforce.

But the hard cost, the mechanical cost for those times when your do not role play out fifteen minutes per summoning?

Virtually nothing. Lets say our typical SR mage wants to summon an F5.

He will. His summoning dicepool is going to kick the crap out of a measly 5 dice resisting. Even without a Dumpshock build.

So now its drain time. We'll be generous and say the F5 got 3 hits. Oh noes, soak 6S, whatever will I do? Mostly likely throw 10-12 dice in drain resistance back. So, call it 3 hits.

3S. The equivalent of maybe catching a bad uppercut. And in return?

A free runner that is immune to SMG fire and below (ITNW 10 - and under Sr5 you can't pull the SnS trick anymore to get around that), auto-soaks 3 boxes of damage from anything other than magic, is as smart as most college professors, and usually has an attack of some sort that is barely resistible or creates vast negative consequences. Plus, it can fly around on the astral, materialize and dematerialize, slipping through and around physical barriers. In short it can be a one man/beast/deity wrecking machine. All without exposing the caster to any risk, and of course, you can just re-summon one if they do manage to bring it down.

And since everything in a combat counts as one service, this beasty will stay until you've won the fight.

All that for 3S and some text on how treating them nice might be a good idea. And if your willing to make it physical damage...your goliath can be proofed against machineguns and cannons.

That does not seem like there's a price at all. Any more than writing about how ware eats your soul and then saying that you can have WR2, titanium bone lacing, and a built in acid launching undodgeable machinegun - all of which can be concealed completely and is easily licensed - for maybe, say, .5 essence and a few k nuyen.

So, could we please get some hard limits on spirit summoning rather than well intentioned atmospherics? Something that makes the summoner say..."ok, feck, do I really want to do this?" or at leats makes them need to balance something out. Because right now is a no-cost, easy to choose, easy to use option that may not be an I WIN button, but can definitely contribute.

Most handguns with APDS (which is now common enough) in the hands of a semi competent shooter will creampie that F5 spirit. A single net hit will completely bypass ItNW, and that spirit will autosoak jack. Spirit ranged options were utterly nerfed (their ranged attack is now F meters instead of LoS), and a F5 elemental attack is laughable anyway, so they will need to close the gap, thereby exposing themselves. For the spirit to deal damage anywhere near a decent gunfighter, it needs F6+ combined with Elemental Aura; lacking one of those will mean its damage won't hit two digits, which melee really needs.

Your F5 spirit isn't a Sam, and if he can substitute for the Sam in your games, the player in question needs to step up his/her game. A F5 spirit is a grunt, able to fill the role of a drone. If you use it in the capacity you describe, it counts as a remote service btw, which means all other services are void.

Before getting in to the mechanical argument - and we will, shortly - lets look at the simple fact that this spirit costs nothing. Effectively nothing. You get something for free. In a world where "everything costs", the spirit costs nothing.

Now, Whether you play at a table where an F5 is a beast or "just a drone", your getting a whole lot of something (be that a "mere" combat drone or a rocking Sammie as your table may vary) for nothing. Which is directly contrary to everything else in the game. The entire purpose is that you never get a free lunch, but spirits are. They are literal free firepower, free tasks, free eyes, free bullet sponges. Free, free, free. Or, at a few drain each, so close to free that its irrelvant. No nuyen needed, no acquisition, no need to smuggle them in..nothing. Just "whoop, here you go. Oh, here is an inconvenient stun that probably won't even affect your DP".

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Now, to the mechanics.

"If the modified DV exceeds the Immunity
rating, perform a Damage Resistance test as normal,
adding the Immunity rating to the dice pool for this test.
Additionally, half (rounded up) of the Immunity rating
counts as automatic hits on this test."

PG 398, SR5E.

Yes, it autosoaks. 3 boxes. Doesn't matter what or how so long as its not magical.

So, a Predator V (loaded with APDS though I doubt its so common that it gets issued in vast droves to every guard and security force member) with 2 net hits..10, -5 AP. Sweet. Versus body 5, armor 5 after the AP mod - soaks 3 hits we'll say. So, 4 boxes. Do that two more times and it will actually go down. Unless the corp sec or whoever is only carrying lead. Now its 6 hits to bring down the spirit.

Comparatively, the Sam in question would need 23 points of armor/body to reduce that APDS attack to 4...and when he gets hit, its for real, not a pet who can be bought for a handful of drain...or none if they've mix maxed.

Of course, the returning elemental attack will be a DV 10, -5 AP shot as well..with elemental benefits, and the shooter hardly has immunity to elements.

And by semi competent shooter, shall we try an above average human (AGI 4), with either some wares or a popper in (+2 AGI) who is proficient in his shooting (Skill 4) with a Smartlink and no environmental or range mods? 12 Dice. Versus...9-14 depending on spirit type. Seeing as how Air and Fire are perennial favorites, probably the higher ones. So, a less than 50% chance to hit for 2-4 boxes. Our corp sec friend in turn is rolling maybe 10 dice to avoid a 12-14 dice attack.



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Now, your right...in a dumpshock level game, an F5 may be a grunt compared to a 20DP Sammie. Fine. But in a dumpshock level game, the summoner is calling out F7s and F8s for about the same drain. F9 with just a touch of physical. And if you think an F8 is easy to kill, your out of your mind.

Pretty sure the spirit would only get ItNW 5 - I can't find anything that sets the power rating to twice force. So, damage has to be greater than 5 to effect it, which means that even holdout even holdouts can damage a Force 5 spirit. The flipside is that HA is no longer an all or nothing affair - it also provides auto-soak equal to half its rating. All that said, if you load a Predator with APDS, their ITNW ceases to be at all effective.

That F5 Spirit is going to HATE Background Count, and may consider you as treating it poorly if you tell it to enter (or summon it in) such a place...
Wards stop spirits (unless the summoner is inside the ward)...

If your Characters are summoning up F7+ Spirits casually, as you imply, then that spirit should be spending edge to resist (it is there to be used by them after all, and they are a lot smarter than the character likely is).

There are ways to impact upon the spirit. The GM has to use them, though, or they have no effect. *shrug*

Hardened Armor rating equal to twice its essence. All spirits have F = essence.



Yes, but this is the point. they are all "soft." They all require the GM to pull the trigger. Its an air of forgiveness, not permission. Whereas things like essence, cash for equipment, biofeedback in hotsim...all these things are "hard" and costs whether or not the GM goes out of his way to police them. That's the point here. Spirits are FREE unless the GM goes out of his way to make them not free. Its like assuming every Decker gets a fairlight if he's willing to accept 2S before jacking in - with the caveat that the GM might make someone angry at the decker.

Ah, found the line now. Still, Force 5 spirits are easy to damage - toss APDS in the Security 600 or pretty much any holdout, and you can damage it. ItNW is a LOT weaker now, due to the changes to damage codes.

Boo. I like spirits being tough and scary.

But it's another thing on the awakened pro column to make it better.

Half the modified value as automatic hits is still pretty damn good - it's just not insurmountable anymore.

In SR5, summoned spirits have no Edge to spend resisting -- apparently Edge is only for free spirits. p.304 "Summoned and bound spirits don’t have their own Edge pools (or if they do, they don’t use them)."

The thing about F5 spirits is that everyone and their brother will be able to summon them, so they're a little less scary. Any group that wants to pretend to be marginally competent will have a magician with Summoning + Magic 8 or higher, which equates to regular on the spot summoning of an F5 spirit with a service to carry it through combat, so you're really just matching machine gun with machine gun at that point.

It's when you get to the scary spirits of Force 7+ that you risk major on the spot damage -- 7 dice to resist summoning can easily turn into 5 hits, or 10 Drain, and suddenly your summoner is half-unconscious and might not even get the spirit.

Think about it like the F5 Flamethrower spell -- sure, it might be a little painful to the target, but it's not an I Win button. F5 spirits aren't either.

They are not an instant kill, but materialization combined with concealment can make it pretty much a kill. How many F5 area effect spells can the average target take vs how long does it take for them to spot the concealed spirit nuking them in SR5?

Its not that an F5 is an I Win button - it can, after all, be beaten with good rolls or a well equipped enemy, albeit slowly - its that it is very powerful. And it is FREE. In a system where everything else has a cost that needs to be considered, a summoner can call up a major ally for nothing.

Other than the GM stepping in, there is no appreciable downside whatsoever to calling up a spirit of whatever you've set your drain resistance for. And with Edge, that can get pretty high. Which once again, is virtually no investment compared to any other use of edge. I can spend edge to...shoot first, maybe make sure a shot lands, dodge a bullet, get that one last program to work, try not to botch the social roll with the Johnson...or successfully call up a small God. Hmmm.

Actually it costs 2-5 special attribute points, 4 attribute points, 4-25 skill points, and 44k-175k nuyen based upon your priority order.

This! People tend to forgot that in order to be a halfway competent mage, you actually need to invest heavily. The opportunity cost to be a mage is staggeringly high. So no, it's not free.

The cost of a mage is high. The marginal cost of summoning is 6 skill points. At the cost of those 6 skill points, your mage gains the ability to summon spirits comparable to a street sam in addition to all of his other tricks.

Which you can't use unless you use a rather high priority into Magic and spend points on the Magic attribute.

It's true spirits are powerful, but they are not necessarily loyal.

The will do as you command but rarely act on your behalf otherwise.

Say your in a firefight and your street sam and the spirit both see someone flanking the party and about to shoot out your decker from behind, however due to LOS the summoning mage does not so is not aware of the danger.

The Street Sam can react on the party's behalf, the spirit may or may not depending on what the mage is doing. It doesn't have to say anything unless the mage had given it instructions to alert them of dangers or set to overwatch.

This is not an excuse for the cost and maybe it should be looked at, but there is always going to be some form of imbalance if you compare magical effects vs purely physical effects.

Not to forget, a shootout might get you two or three squad cars. A spirit on your side will get you a guaranteed HTR team (either Corp or SWAT) coming down on your ass. Better get out fast.

The price of Free F5 Spirits?

Everyone Geeks the Mage.

I think one thing that is often glossed over is that 3S isn't nothing. Especially as there's a chance that it could be more, and at a very bad time. You're taking damage for a useful and flexible power.

I haven't finished reading the book (just dl'ed it last night), doesn't it take time to 1) summon, then 2) have the spirit materialize, then 3) actually do something? All actions a sam could be simply shooting the mage, or a hacker doing hackery things?

These are all costs.

However, if you are playing a Mage, you have already made that decision. Summoning is just icing on the cake.

They have edge. F/2. But players cannot have them spend it. they can certainly spend it themselves.

Per the rules text, they do not have Edge pools at all -- the F/2 would apply for free spirits of those types, but the spirits that show up when you summon have none. There's some philosophical question about whether they actually have none or effectively have none (never spend it), but both of those cases are inconsistent with spirits sometimes spending Edge to resist summoning.

Yea if the intention is they have Edge but players can't compel them to use it, that is pretty horrible wording. In fact, I don't think it was written with that intent at all - it's just wrong.

Is this a case of a writer for the system not knowing the rules?

Page 304 is pretty clear Bull....



How does that mesh with what you just said, at all?

And the street sam pays a high investment to be one. The street sam does not have the spend 6 skill points to overshadow the mage at magic option though. .

Summoned and Bound is the key.

They have Edge when they're not summoned or bound. Like while free. or while in the metaplanes being summoned.

if the spirits don't like you, and they see your number on Speed Dial, they can and should be spending edge to resist that summon.

And yes, that should have been made more clear, I suspect. But since tehre are no rules for Free Spirits in the book, and their stat blocks clearly have an Edge score, there's some implied stuff going on here.

That needs to be made COMPLETELY clear. That will b e what keeps summoning in check. As you typed this, I was on the official boards asking if spirits are considered free before you summon them.

You guys need to comb through this book, fix the myriad of screw ups, typos, and murky stuff and get a second printing out ASAP.

Yelling about this stuff belongs in the errata thread next door.

How do you make spirits like you? The cost better be damn high because high Force spirits are really powerful.

I would imagine if you kept the spirits domain clean, and stopped others from defiling thier domain would help.

Not sending spirits on suicide missions would help. Maybe not using binding a lot would help. Nothing rules wise, but plenty of roleplaying it out.



Who is yelling, and this isn't errata. it does not belong in an errata thread.

The description of spirits at the top of p.303 says "They're usually only found when a magician summons them, but there are many free spirits who live unbound on the material plane." Even if there aren't expanded rules for free spirits (like we'll probably see in the magic book), free spirits are still things that runners could encounter in the base rules, just like critters. Those free spirits would clearly have Edge (per the stat blocks), and I don't see that as being inconsistent with the statement that summoned spirits don't have Edge.

Then there's the distinction between whether a spirit is "being summoned" or "summoned". Unless the process of summoning actually destroys the spirit's Edge attribute, I can't see how spirits resisting with Edge is consistent with the rule that after they're summoned they have no Edge pools. I don't believe the aside that "or if they do, they don't use them" changes anything -- if spirits resisted summoning with Edge, there would be no doubt that they have Edge pools and just choose not to use them afterwards. Also, a spirit is already summoned at the time you bind it; even when making a distinction between "being summoned" and "summoned", spirits couldn't use Edge to resist binding.

It all looks pretty clear and consistent to me as written. I'll readily believe the intent was for spirits to be able to use Edge to resist summoning, but I don't see how that's consistent with what ended up in the book.

I think that summoned spirits as written are a significant balance issue, so I'd be happy to see some changes to that in the errata. Having spirits resist summoning with Edge isn't my favorite solution since I think it can lead to a more adversarial relationship between players and the GM, but it is a way to make summoning riskier (though not directly less powerful).

They have and can use Edge until they are summoned. They cannot use Edge once they've been summoned. They are not considered summoned, however, until after the roll is resolved - so how is it in anyway inconsistent for them to have Edge for that roll, when they clearly haven't been summoned yet.

Don't be a dick.
[edit] To the spirits I mean, not the poster making the the post

The rule doesn't say they cannot use Edge -- it says "they don't have their own Edge pools". If a spirit just used Edge to resist summoning, clearly it has an Edge pool, which is inconsistent with what's written.

The next point, of course, is the aside "(or if they do, they don't use them)". If spirits use Edge to resist summoning and clearly do have Edge pools, that's still not consistent with a world where no one can tell the difference between summoned spirits not having Edge pools vs. just not using them.

That rule specifies summoned and bound spirits - and that they don't have an Edge pool. Basically, once they've been summoned, it's the same as if they'd spent all their Edge, only they don't get a refresh unless they go free. But that only applies AFTER the conjurer has scored net hits, which means that when they're rolling their resistance they still have an Edge pool.

Many people have correctly identified this as a base cost for being a mage, not for summoning. Summoning, as one poster said, is an insignificant marginal cost.

So, really, what your saying is that the opportunity cost for being able to call up a spirit that can near-peer a Sam (or at the very least a 15k drone) and has vast utility for 1-3S is...being powerful in other magics with a very solid attribute build, about as much cash left at the get go as anyone else, having two support magical skills at 4 or 5, having to buy a power foci that helps everything else you do and would have bought anyhow, being stated and equipped to survive most direct gunfire before stunbolting the shooter?

Plus those 6 (7 for specialization) skill points that were going to go into aeronautical engineering?



Typically people conjure up their spirits prior to kick off. Or after crossing the wards. Only in the highest of high security facilities or in the worst shitstorm of things gone wrong (namely the prior spirit died) would the spirit actually be summoned as bullets are zipping around the jackpoint/WAN/LAN while the hacker is hacking and the Sammies are hurling back grenades. So the time cost is irrelevant a great deal of the time.

As for the chance it could be more...its a .003% chance in our example for a 5/5 hits. Which is what will be needed to challenge a summoning dice pool of 15+ on even or near even terms. In which case our summoner edges his drain, and now maybe has 4 or 5S...still a mere -1 DP, and hey, you have a high WP kicking your stun condition monitor up there anyhow.

Of course, given the 12 hour service window, if you summon a few hours before kick off, you can rest that off too, but ignoring that...it still is a pitifully small cost for what you get, which is a spirit that ranges from "at least a good as a combat drone" to "another runner" and has a whole bag of magic tricks up its sleeve.

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All of which is only governed by a GM taking the time to curb it. Which is directly contrary to everyone else's "you pay for your edge, one way or another."

in that case, you should probably change the text that explicitly states they either don't have it or never use it. because if they do have it, and can use it for themselves, well... obviously the statement that they don't have or never use it would be wrong.

PCs "pay" for their abilities by expending their limited allocations of starting resources. Not everything semi-effective that a player does needs to screw him over somehow. Jeez. It's not Harrison Bergeron, the role-playing game - it comes too damn close to that, already.

We should make mages wear huge and clunky headsets that blast them with horribly-loud and clashing noise every time they try to cast a spell.

By the same token, so is spellcasting and any other magical skill. Summoning is pretty much 50% of the reason why people play mages (the other half being spellcasting), so the cost is not marginal.

Have you actually played a Mage in SR5?

-- Well that's a pretty tortuous 'interpretation.' Especially as the writers went out of the way to have an entire rules heading that says clearly they don't have, or can't use, Edge. There's zero rules support for them being able to spend Edge of any flavor or wording to resist a summoning or binding.

-- Are they Grunts? They are the only entity in the game that have Edge pool (see Group Edge, p. 380), so it's more likely that Edge points is what was intended.

Caps is raising your voice.


This is asking for errata.

On average, Drain isn't much, but it can easily be a lot on a good Resistance Test.

And if you are summoning F>M spirits, Drain is physical (and cannot be healed by magical means, so unless you have a competent doc around it will stay with you for a while).

That definitely is a cost in my eyes.

Bye
Thanee

Well, at least in 5 it is not to be healed by a doc either. (I mean an hermetic mage just needed to skill first aid and be done with it)

But it is still only damage. Something you will also get if somebody shoots you. If you are able to soak it, you will have payed nothing at all.

They have Edge equal to half their force. They do Not have edge to spend on the summoner's behalf. The summoner has to spend their edge for the spirit they are in control of.

and a 100% of the reason a street sam played a street sam is to be a stret sam. Why is it cool for the mages 50% reason allow him to summon up pocket better street sams than the street sam? Have you played a street sam in a game where the mage actually summons powerful spirits? I'd say they were playing second fiddle to the spirits but they are so much worse they really shouldn't even be in the band.

Unfortunately I do not think there will be any one answer to the issue short of capping spirits to Force = Magic, so that only advanced initiates could bring down a F10 +.

An exception for this could be if done as a ritual so a magical group can summon higher Force using the highest Magic in group plus 1 per additional participant or something similar.

That will not remove the problem, but give a breathing space for those coming out of chargen before they can bring on the wrecking ball.

Please note I am not in favour of capping it like this, but looking at all options is sometimes a way to find a better solution.

A good questions is how much does the GM really interact in the summoning? If you are summoning something effectively more powerful than yourself (ie higher force than your magic), how much personality does the GM put into it or is it just a magical version of a drone that you basically point and shoot with? A higher level spirit will do as you command, but may bicker or try to weasel the intent if it seems plausible.

But the problem is its not something you can put down into paper easily and you need a system that will work across the board for everyone.