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Tzeentch
QUOTE (RHat @ Aug 6 2013, 03:23 AM) *
The term effective isn't used anywhere in the book to refer to directly augmenting an attribute - the terms used for directly increasing a rating are "adds its rating to" or "increases _________ by". Anything that adds a numerical bonus to an Attribute makes a direct and explicit reference to doing so, Power Focus makes no such reference because it does no such thing.

-- SR5 uses "effective" for directly adding, modifying, or substituting attributes in four spots (I didn't check SR4 books).

Magic Fingers: The hits on the Spellcasting + Magic Test become the spell’s effective Strength and Agility.

Chisel/crowbar: The chisel (or crowbar if you prefer) doubles your effective Strength when you’re forcing a door or container.

Explosives: Each hit on a Demolitions + Logic [Mental] Test adds 1 to the explosive’s effective rating.

Power Foci: They are very powerful foci that temporarily increase your effective Magic rating.

-- This isn't complex technical writing. You're flat-out inventing a distinction for power foci.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Tzeentch @ Aug 7 2013, 11:23 AM) *
-- SR5 uses "effective" for directly adding, modifying, or substituting attributes in four spots (I didn't check SR4 books).

Magic Fingers: The hits on the Spellcasting + Magic Test become the spell’s effective Strength and Agility.

Chisel/crowbar: The chisel (or crowbar if you prefer) doubles your effective Strength when you’re forcing a door or container.

Explosives: Each hit on a Demolitions + Logic [Mental] Test adds 1 to the explosive’s effective rating.

Power Foci: They are very powerful foci that temporarily increase your effective Magic rating.

-- This isn't complex technical writing. You're flat-out inventing a distinction for power foci.


So...

If Effective is an actual Increase for the duration of the effect (Opening Door/container, Blowing stuff up, Sustaining the Magic Fingers spell), Then WHY does the Foci not DIRECTLY add to the Magic Rating? That is WHAT it is saying. None of the others actively add DICE, they add an effective increase to the actual rating of what they are modifying. And then we are told that the Foci only add DICE. This creates a glaring Disconnect.

Again, it is not complex Technical Writing... Whomever wrote that text broke with the manner in which the others used the increase (Direct, Direct, Direct, Dice). This causes confusion and consternation.

Again, not too concerned with it, but it is a disconnect that needs to be fixed.
Tzeentch
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 7 2013, 07:19 PM) *
Besides, My comments originated from how we (at our table) run SR4A, and intend to run Spirit Summoning in SR5 (because to do otherwise breaks the world). Which I Stated as part of that argument. His counter argument was addressing that (how we currently treat the situation) and prompted my reply.

Are you running spirits with Force = Edge as in SR4A? If so, that would basically destroy high-Force summoning as a concept with the SR5 Edge rules so I'm not sure why you would even bother with anything more complex than "You can't summon anything above Force 6. Period."
Tzeentch
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 7 2013, 07:31 PM) *
If Effective is an actual Increase for the duration of the effect (Opening Door/container, Blowing stuff up, Sustaining the Magic Fingers spell), Then WHY does the Foci not DIRECTLY add to the Magic Rating? That is WHAT it is saying. None of the others actively add DICE, they add an effective increase to the actual rating of what they are modifying. And then we are told that the Foci only add DICE. This creates a glaring Disconnect.

As written, I think it's clear that is adds a bonus to your Magic rating. Maybe if they didn't have that period and instead an "i.e."

It doesn't say "only" or that it exclusively adds dice. But this is all in the errata thread, so hopefully it will be fixed soon (I suspect that it won't end up adding to Magic).
QUOTE
Again, it is not complex Technical Writing... Whomever wrote that text broke with the manner in which the others used the increase (Direct, Direct, Direct, Dice). This causes confusion and consternation.

The book was written by a ton of different people and has a 15 page errata thread. Banshee LAVs can enter earth orbit with a Vehicle Rig, or travel interstellar distances using the Movement power. Even the argued-about spirit Edge stuff is wonky because they say Edge pool and only Grunts have Group Edge.
thorya
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 7 2013, 02:19 PM) *
Sadly, he still refuses to answer why a Force 7 Spirit would only generate a peasly 2s Drain. It should be more... A LOT more for something as good as that. frown.gif


I believe that it is based on the following.
Assume the magician has:
Taken exceptional attribute (magic) and starts with 7 magic.
12 dice to resist drain.

The spirit throws 7 dice to resist the summoning. It rolls 2 hits on average for 4 drain and because of the exceptional attribute the force 7 spirit causes stun.

With a less than average roll on the 12 drain dice you reduce the 4S to 2S. Alternately, the spirit rolls 3 hits and the magician rolls average on to resist drain and gets 4 hits, reducing 6S to 2S.

Edit: I'm not arguing at all that this is the way it should be, just guessing where the numbers coming from.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 7 2013, 01:31 PM) *
So...

If Effective is an actual Increase for the duration of the effect (Opening Door/container, Blowing stuff up, Sustaining the Magic Fingers spell), Then WHY does the Foci not DIRECTLY add to the Magic Rating? That is WHAT it is saying. None of the others actively add DICE, they add an effective increase to the actual rating of what they are modifying. And then we are told that the Foci only add DICE. This creates a glaring Disconnect.

Again, it is not complex Technical Writing... Whomever wrote that text broke with the manner in which the others used the increase (Direct, Direct, Direct, Dice). This causes confusion and consternation.

Again, not too concerned with it, but it is a disconnect that needs to be fixed.


Sure it is very clear that across chapters they can't keep their terms straight. But in the same chapter and section on focuses they have a very clear lingo for when it is only a dice pool mod and power focus does not use that lingo, and this presumably is the same writer as it would be odd for one writer to write every other focus and another to write just the power focus. As for why use the term effective, one they probably just used the wrong term like they do in many other parts of the book, 2 by calling it effective it gives more wiggle room for future books to exclude it. or maybe it was an attempt to show you could not link it to adept powers as a mystake adept. So basically we don't know why they said effective because they don't tell us, but raises effective magic rating end thought is not a tricky sentence. If they had wanted it o be just a dice pool mod the writer would likely copy and paste 4es writing on it or the pattern for every other focus that is a dice pool mod or if they said effective they would not end thought and instead add for the purposes of the following; As the sentence is written it means your magic rating is effectively higher than it normally is.
PriorityKarmaGen
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 7 2013, 05:47 PM) *
Certainly allowed your opinion, but it is RAW. ANYTHING can spend Edge, if they have it, for whatever they want within the uses of Edge. So...
Using your method (No Edge Expenditure), you will have Mages sumoning up to F9's failry casually. Certainly your perrogative, but then you really cannot complain when they break the game. *shrug*

Actually, my proposed houserule is very similar to your solution nyahnyah.gif. Spirits effectively roll 2xForce - 2 dice to resist with no exploding 6's, max spirit force is Magic +1, although the drain is scaled down. My proposal has the additional effect of having finer divisions of spirit power (you can summon a Force 5.5 spirit, effectively).

By the way, the odds of getting X hits on 7 dice (no Edge):
0: 5.85%
1: 20.48%
2: 30.73%
3: 25.61%
4: 12.80%
5: 3.84%
6: 0.64%
7: 0.05%

The odds of getting X DRAIN OR LESS when the spirit rolls 10 dice (ignoring exploding 6's, which shouldn't make a huge difference) and the magician has 11 dice of drain resist:
0: 23.3%
1: 33.6%
2: 45.1%
3: 56.7%
4: 67.7%
5: 77.2%
6: 84.9%
7: 90.6%
8: 94.5%
9: 97.0%
10: 98.5%
11: 99.3%
12: 99.7%
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 7 2013, 08:08 AM) *
My question is how you are only getting 2s drain for a Force 7 Spirit? That is the crux of the argument, and I must have missed it. I agree with you that a F7 Spirit is stupid powerful, and at our table, it would be rolling 2xF (reroll 6's) to resist that summons (which, believe me, is more than enough to keep that stupidity to a rare minimum).


Your use of edge is a good guideline to use and I use it as well. But, I still contend that things like this should be rules or the spirits should just be balanced as the current system of scaling scales too fast. Relying on a good GM to handle things is bad game design IMO. This kind of management is going beyond what a rule system should expect out of a GM to handle to keep a game balanced.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Tzeentch @ Aug 7 2013, 11:42 AM) *
As written, I think it's clear that is adds a bonus to your Magic rating. Maybe if they didn't have that period and instead an "i.e."

It doesn't say "only" or that it exclusively adds dice. But this is all in the errata thread, so hopefully it will be fixed soon (I suspect that it won't end up adding to Magic).

The book was written by a ton of different people and has a 15 page errata thread. Banshee LAVs can enter earth orbit with a Vehicle Rig, or travel interstellar distances using the Movement power. Even the argued-about spirit Edge stuff is wonky because they say Edge pool and only Grunts have Group Edge.


Indeed, there is some craziness that NEEDS to be addressed. Sadly, I bet we still have yet to catch it all. frown.gif
RHat
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Aug 7 2013, 12:23 PM) *
Your use of edge is a good guideline to use and I use it as well. But, I still contend that things like this should be rules or the spirits should just be balanced as the current system of scaling scales too fast. Relying on a good GM to handle things is bad game design IMO. This kind of management is going beyond what a rule system should expect out of a GM to handle to keep a game balanced.


Having something like a spirit attitude/reputation system baked in wouldn't be a bad way to go. However, I will always argue against the notion of a FIXED point at which spirits start using Edge to resist, as that would vary based on the specific summoner.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (RHat @ Aug 7 2013, 05:13 PM) *
Having something like a spirit attitude/reputation system baked in wouldn't be a bad way to go. However, I will always argue against the notion of a FIXED point at which spirits start using Edge to resist, as that would vary based on the specific summoner.


My current rule is 5+ they use edge, if you are on good terms with them or have spirit affinity for that type it is force 6+, if you have both it is force 7+. I was tempted to go with greater than 1/2 your summoning skill, but that seemed to low, maybe greater than 1+1/2.
RHat
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Aug 7 2013, 03:19 PM) *
My current rule is 5+ they use edge, if you are on good terms with them or have spirit affinity for that type it is force 6+, if you have both it is force 7+. I was tempted to go with greater than 1/2 your summoning skill, but that seemed to low, maybe greater than 1+1/2.


Perhaps, for a baseline, you take the average of Charisma and the skills in the Conjuring group to set a sort of "spirit reputation score" (or, for that matter, you could sensibly use your Social Limit as a baseline), with gains and losses to that score being assessed based on how you treat your spirits. Anytime you attempt to summon or bind a spirit beyond your rep, they spend Edge to resist. The trick would be calibrating the ways that you gain and lose this rep just so, such that it's easier to lose than to rebuild but not ridiculously so.

Of course, to really do it right you'd have to further break out into tradition-specific additions.
GloriousRuse
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 7 2013, 08:08 AM) *
My question is how you are only getting 2s drain for a Force 7 Spirit? That is the crux of the argument, and I must have missed it. I agree with you that a F7 Spirit is stupid powerful, and at our table, it would be rolling 2xF (reroll 6's) to resist that summons (which, believe me, is more than enough to keep that stupidity to a rare minimum).


Several others have correctly hit it, but Elfenlied's theoretical optimal mage vs optimal sammie post identified the starting stats, including the exceptional attribute magic rating.

In such a case, an F7 would just be rolling 7 dice, even with the if greater than magic rating the spirit edges optional ruling. So, 2 hits versus a soak pool of 12 (4S soaked), for an average of 2S.

Believe me, at any table I would do the edge thing regardless...but that is a "soft" limit, trusting me as the GM or the table as players to realize the sheer stupidity of this. By Hard limits, the ones that say you can't have WR3 and titanium bonelacing, and you can't start play with a fairlight caliban, elfenlied's stats produce that comparison.

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