Our group is getting ready to try out 5th for the new weekly game. One of the players is running a technomancer character with a Sherlock Holmes-bent. He has a question regarding using his sprites to MARK targets, specifically if a sprite MARK's a target, would it also be a MARK for the technomancer. His other question is that if a sprite receives an uninvited MARK, would the technomancer that compiled the sprite receive a MARK as well.

I think I know that the answers are yes and yes, but I thought I'd get feedback since I haven't found the entry in the rulebook that answers the questions specifically.

I'm reasonably certain the answers are no and no. Sprites are separate entities from the technomancer altogether, and are a separate persona. Further, they are not slaved to the technomancer, so there's be no transfer of unauthorized marks.

Because Sprites are considered their own Persona, and there are no rules for transferring marks, it looks like RHat is right and this is a no and no. The only exceptions are convergence or if another TM/sprite tries to track your resonance signature, then all that stuff goes straight to you. Everything else, the Sprite has to deal with it themselves.

But sprites bring a whole lot of confusion to the table, because they have no physical location. So does that mean they're invisible on the Matrix, since they can never be within 100 meters of a device.

The only way a Sprite can get you marks, is if they're able to spoof a device's owner to have that device perform an invite mark action. But of course, the sprite has to find and mark the owner first, and it doesn't work on Personas or hosts, only devices. So this is a very limited option.

Yeah I went back and looked at the Technomancer section a bit more closely. Reading and thinking more on it, I would have to concur and say the sprite cannot mark a target for the personal advantage of the technomancer. And thinking about it, having a MARK on the sprite and another appearing on the TM would seem to be a substantial disadvantage for TM's...

That probably means it's how the rules are intended to be run.

In this case, not so much - there's nothing in the rules AT ALL to indicate it.

He was being facetious, implying that this edition is designed to gimp technomancers.

i agree that he's being facetious, but are you implying that this edition is *not* designed to gimp technomancers? (not exclusively mind you; it's one of several goals, like making deckers really good and for some reason trying to force everyone to go wireless enabled when we almost unanimously made it clear we didn't want to go wireless enabled in SR4).

Which is a bit inside, so forgive me for attempting to ensure that people not familiar with that whole discussion don't come away with the wrong idea.

Deckers have an easier time right now because decks will usually have better stats than a metahuman's mental attributes, but Technomancers have enough tricks up their sleeves to keep them interesting and viable. Like say you're up against a HTR team and they're firing EX rounds at you. Well, you know that rule about glitching with explosive ammo? Compile a sprite and hit that guy with gremlins. While its true this will require a lot of luck, but when that guy's gun explodes in his hands, it'll all be worth it.

I like wireless bonuses specifically for that reason. You won't be able to do cool stuff like that if everyone was running with no wireless on. Rule of cool trumps your broken suspension of disbelief.

it's not just attributes. it's also programs. and the ability to swap around those attributes on a whim. and the fact that they don't have to eat a bunch of fading to do any of their best tricks. and the fact that they don't have a penalty to their matrix actions when they take matrix damage (unless their deck is fully bricked). and the fact that they don't take matrix damage to their meat body's damage tracks. and the fact that they don't need a couple of extra skills and an extra attribute just to use the (mostly unimpressive) special skills they actually do have. plus the fact that getting augmented doesn't cost them hacking ability. plus the fact that you can be a decker adept for even more of a dice pool increase.

heck, i'm probably missing something else, too. it's hard to remember the full list of disadvantages technomancers take so that they can do a handful of slightly improved matrix actions (for example, only the owner of that gun can choose to use matrix full defence... which means that the regular hacker can probably brick the gun for mostly the same results, since the target won't have a large defensive dice pool; you won't damage the guard, but a security guard without a gun is still not a threat just like a security guard that managed to blow up their own hand).

Which will never work if the gun/ammunition is not wireless enabled... As a person in such an environment, mine would never be. As a character, not then either. It is totally ignorant to be broadcasting with your weapon and its ammunition. Complete and utter stupidity, in fact.



That is not rule of cool, in my opinion, just ill-conceived mechanics and poor wireless implementation.

I felt that way at first. But when you look into it their goal isn't reached the way they implemented it. One way to do it would be to just have things be either wireless or off. The in-between state where the thing is on but not wireless enabled makes everything weird. At least to me.

I don't know TJ, it sounds like you just don't want deckers to do anything cool or at least in a timely manner. You seem to like SR4a's Matrix, which I thought was okayish, but honestly took way too long to do anything, making it pointless to be a hacker. Cybercombat was completely useless in SR4, there was no cost to messing up in the Matrix other than it taking longer to do anything, and everything just took too damn long to do anything anyway, since every single test was an extended test. If you can kill people faster than you can hack on the fly, then why bother hacking when you should just kill everyone in a facility and then steal the nexi or commlink or whatever has the paydata?

And what can you do when you hack? Steal data, turn off/on lights, open doors, edit camera feeds?

What can the mage do? Knock people out in one shot with a manabolt at no cost, throw people out of windows, mind control people, turn invisible, scout ahead with no fear of retaliation?

Sams and adepts; stab, shoot, dodge bullets, move faster than anyone, take hits better, be a ninja, etc.

Basically, there is no point in being a dedicated hacker in SR4, so what you should be is a street sam that does hacking on the side.

However in SR5? You won't have the money, resources, and stats to be a street sam/decker. Hackers are once again their own specialist archetype. And so you spend all your resources on being a top notch hot drek decker. Why does a team want you? Other than being the guy that has to go on the run to get the paydata/Macguffin. What good will a decker be when drek hits the fan? Well, now they can force the enemy team to turn off their wireless bonuses, giving your team more dice because they don't have to fear their stuff getting bricked. And if you don't think having more dice to throw than your opponents is important, then I don't know what to tell you other than your priorities being wrong.

My argument is that Hackers should not be hacking people... that is not their job. SO that may be where we differ. A HAcker in COmbat should be controlling communications and tactical coordination. not trying to hack someone's smartlink or wired reflexes.



Controll communications, Coordinate your team, run your surveillance, hack the environment (ideally done prior to your infiltration, but not impossible to do in the moment since you do not traverse a secure facility in seconds, but mor on the order of tens of minutes), etc.



Only if the facility has no countermeasures for the Magician. You knowe, things to keep him occipied like they have for the Hacker.



As a Hacker, I did my share pof such things in game. Not every action needs to be missored for the Hacker. It is often better to have a gun than a deck IN A FIREFIGHT.



Wrong, I played a very successful and powerful hacker in SR4A, for MANY years. He had far more effect on the game than the Street Sam or Mage did.



Wireless bonuses that will not be enabled if the opposition is smart, you mean... so not hackable. I don't care if the opponent has more dice than me, most of them do. I work around that limitation to eventually succeed (or sometimes lose) based upon my actions and not my Dice Pool. *shrug*

Hackers should not be hacking people. Crazy.



Probably useless.



Definitely useless -- you can't expect the hacker to also be the team tactical expert.



This is either managed ongoing in the case of hacking security cameras, or done by the rigger with his surveillance drones.



Nonspecific.



Magical countermeasures don't shove the Mage in a closet for the run -- they're handled in situ. The goal is not to keep people occupied individually, it's to keep them working together to overcome problems.



Bombastic language. The hacker has gotten some minor ability to affect people and their stuff, but it's still less ability than a bullet or a spell.



Actually, wireless bonuses will be enabled if the opposition is smart, because they'll either know they're covered or know to turn them off at the right time.

Not if they are professionals (Targets, not Hackers)... *shrug*

As I said, it is not worth fighting over.

Disruption of communications can be handle by anyone with a high enough jammer, so I don't think that is something that exactly requires a decker. In SR5 preventing your communication from being listen in on is now simply handled with a firewall + logic, but even in SR4 this simply required a high level encryption program to buy time, which also goes back to my statement of everything taking to long in the Matrix. In fact, say we want to listen in on someone's communications in SR4. Because of the mesh network, we need to be within mutual signal range, not really a problem in a firefight since if they can shoot you, you're probably close enough. Then you need to run a sniffer. Then you need to decrypt which can take some 2 to 5 combat passes. Say we've got 6 skill and 6 rating so that's 12 dice, on average that's 4 hits an action. So sniffer will probably take about 3 passes. And bingo, now you can listen in on the enemy tactics. In those 3 passes, the spell or gun slingers have probably killed at least one of them. And mechanically what does listening in on them get you? Is that 3 passes hacking in VR, better or worse than shooting a gun? Is it better or worse than turning on a jammer? Is the time investment better or worse? In SR5 at the very least you know that if you force someone to turn off their wireless, you know you just cost them 2 dice, and if you brick something you know they no longer have a piece of gear to use against your team. In SR4? Who the hell knows what you just did? Might have been pointless and a waste of time.

Tactical coordination is now the job of the face. So either we make the face's support job useless in combat by giving it to the decker, or we have to make all deckers faces. Both which I don't think solve the problem very well. Or we can just make everyone a Street Sam that can also do other things then killing people, but I do think it defeats the purpose when we make the different play styles all play the same in combat by shooting or throwing spells.

Surveillance is the role of a rigger.

From what you are describing environmental hacks take minutes, when combat is resolved in seconds. So that does help reinforce that deckers are pointless, and that everyone should be a Sam with some off skills in hacking. So you can murder everyone and then actually hack in piece for 10 minutes.




So are we trying to play in a world where the Matrix can and should be ignored? Despite the fact the the Matrix in setting and genre, is suppose to be so invasive into everyday life, that we can actually pretend that it's pointless and just be something in the background. A deck should be actually more dangerous than a gun, because it requires a high level of technical knowledge. "Geek the decker," should be a thing. I honestly think the Matrix should be even more invasive than it is now. Like you don't even get a choice. Everything is online. That's it. And you can never be offline. The constant paranoia that you are never alone and that you're always being watched, that should be real. But the Matrix as a setting and mechanic is so easy to just hand wave away, even in SR5, its sickening. The whole point of cyberpunk as a genre is to question the line of where man and machine end and where it gets really blurry. If you can hack a human like a machine, that's cyberpunk.

It is entertaining, DeathStrobe, how you spin the things I say in the worst possible light. I don't know about you, but I think our differences are in our expectations. I do NOT expect a Hacker to hack a system/device in 3 Seconds. Never have and never will. So my expectations are not the same as yours apparently are.

It is also entertaining that for every explanation I (or someone else) gives for what a Hacker can do in SR4A, others deem it as unimportant or irrelevant, or somehow relies upon the GM to work.

In a Firefight, I expect the Face to be shooting, same goes with a Rigger, a Street Sam and a Mage (whether it is with magic or guns), and possibly even the Hacker... In my experience, a FACE type character is not the best choice to be the leader, because he lacks information. The ONLY ones with all the information have tended to be the Hackers/Riggers, and often that niche is filled by the same character. The Cyberlogician is a Hacker (and not a Face, Street Sam, Mage, or other "Thing") for that very reason. As for time in Hacks. WHile people move, the Hacker hacks... All hacking we did in SR4A happened in real time with simultaneous actions by the others. So, I fail to see the problem that you are gettting worked up about. I do understand that in SR5, it will be faster, but I think that is a bad choice, becuase hacking at that speed is ludicrous, and strains verisimilitude far beyond the breaking point for me. I also do not think that most of the things that SR5 demands be Wirelss access should EVER be wireless accessible. Bad Implementation of an interesting Idea.

There are things I like about the 5th Edition Matrix. But the things I don't like about it taint the rest.

If we're going to speak in extremes and hyperbole to explain why the SR5 Matrix implementation is bad, should we not also take a look at the extremes of what made SR4's Matrix bad too? Or is it okay to look at what is wrong with SR5 without being critical of how previous systems were made and how SR5 addresses their shortcomings?

SR4's Matrix wasn't really that good. It was so horribly abstract with so many situational rules which all played differently and used different skills and stats, that it was damn near impossible to do it right without constantly looking up the rules.

Also, considering that Matrix actions used to be off the normal scale of time from the rest of the game, it doesn't really make sense why Hacking should take longer than combat, with the exceptions of epic hacks. If you can make 2 or 3 pass in the Matrix for every 1 pass in the meat, why wouldn't the Matrix stuff be done sooner? If you're moving at the speed of thought why is it that the guy who is limited by his meat body able to get more done than that hacker in full VR? Why should computers be slower than the meat exactly?

Funny... I never had that problem. *shrug*



You AREN'T taking 2-3 passes for each meat pass in SR4A. Not sure where you got that one from. You are not moving at the speed of thought. You move at the same speeed the Street Sam does, or the Face, or anyone else who has the same 3 passes the hacker has. Yes, A HAcker can eventually get 5 passes, assuming they want to do so, but that still does not goive them 2-3 passes for each Meat pass. Maybe that is where you are having issues. No wonder you want hacks to be faster.

You also heavily house-rule the SR4 Matrix.

I rebuilt the damn SR4 Matrix rules and I still couldn't stand them.

Previous editions. I should have clarified. SR2, 3, probably 1st too. Matrix did not move on the same time scale as normal combat. So if the setting has already established that the Matrix resolves faster than meat actions, why does it move at the same scale as normal combat in SR4? Playability, being the answer. However, the problem is that Matrix actions don't resolve at the same speed as combat, because they take much MUCH longer. So there is now a disconnect. While combat and Matrix tests move at the same rate, why is the hacker's VR Matrix tests taking much longer than the time it takes to resolve normal combat? What this leads to is that hacker throwing a bunch of dice while everyone waits for the hacker to get done with his extended tests, which artificially slow gameplay for no good reason.

As a note, SR3 Matrix Initiative was intended to run in the same timescale as Meat Initiative (and Astral Initiative). Pretty much any Matrix action could be resolved as a single Complex Action.

No, we actually did not. We DID try various adjustments over the years, but never for very long. The longest running change, was the usage of the optional rules in Unwired (Programs as Limits, Stat + Skill). In the end, we used/use the rules as written (though I DO prefer the Optional Rules).

And that speaks more to your dislike of the Matrix in SR4A, I would think, than any actual inability to use the rules. I absolutely hated previous editions Matrix prior to SR4 (though SR1 was interesting, what with being able to run naked in the Matrix) and consider SR4A to be about what I prefer. Again, I like some things in the SR5 Matrix, but some of it just rubs me the wrong way. Perfect Matrix would be to merge the Things I like form both systems and discard the things I hate from each. Ahh Well... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)