Our group is getting ready to try out 5th for the new weekly game. One of the players is running a technomancer character with a Sherlock Holmes-bent. He has a question regarding using his sprites to MARK targets, specifically if a sprite MARK's a target, would it also be a MARK for the technomancer. His other question is that if a sprite receives an uninvited MARK, would the technomancer that compiled the sprite receive a MARK as well.

I think I know that the answers are yes and yes, but I thought I'd get feedback since I haven't found the entry in the rulebook that answers the questions specifically.

I'm reasonably certain the answers are no and no. Sprites are separate entities from the technomancer altogether, and are a separate persona. Further, they are not slaved to the technomancer, so there's be no transfer of unauthorized marks.

Because Sprites are considered their own Persona, and there are no rules for transferring marks, it looks like RHat is right and this is a no and no. The only exceptions are convergence or if another TM/sprite tries to track your resonance signature, then all that stuff goes straight to you. Everything else, the Sprite has to deal with it themselves.

But sprites bring a whole lot of confusion to the table, because they have no physical location. So does that mean they're invisible on the Matrix, since they can never be within 100 meters of a device.

The only way a Sprite can get you marks, is if they're able to spoof a device's owner to have that device perform an invite mark action. But of course, the sprite has to find and mark the owner first, and it doesn't work on Personas or hosts, only devices. So this is a very limited option.

Yeah I went back and looked at the Technomancer section a bit more closely. Reading and thinking more on it, I would have to concur and say the sprite cannot mark a target for the personal advantage of the technomancer. And thinking about it, having a MARK on the sprite and another appearing on the TM would seem to be a substantial disadvantage for TM's...

That probably means it's how the rules are intended to be run.

In this case, not so much - there's nothing in the rules AT ALL to indicate it.

He was being facetious, implying that this edition is designed to gimp technomancers.

i agree that he's being facetious, but are you implying that this edition is *not* designed to gimp technomancers? (not exclusively mind you; it's one of several goals, like making deckers really good and for some reason trying to force everyone to go wireless enabled when we almost unanimously made it clear we didn't want to go wireless enabled in SR4).

Which is a bit inside, so forgive me for attempting to ensure that people not familiar with that whole discussion don't come away with the wrong idea.

Deckers have an easier time right now because decks will usually have better stats than a metahuman's mental attributes, but Technomancers have enough tricks up their sleeves to keep them interesting and viable. Like say you're up against a HTR team and they're firing EX rounds at you. Well, you know that rule about glitching with explosive ammo? Compile a sprite and hit that guy with gremlins. While its true this will require a lot of luck, but when that guy's gun explodes in his hands, it'll all be worth it.

I like wireless bonuses specifically for that reason. You won't be able to do cool stuff like that if everyone was running with no wireless on. Rule of cool trumps your broken suspension of disbelief.

it's not just attributes. it's also programs. and the ability to swap around those attributes on a whim. and the fact that they don't have to eat a bunch of fading to do any of their best tricks. and the fact that they don't have a penalty to their matrix actions when they take matrix damage (unless their deck is fully bricked). and the fact that they don't take matrix damage to their meat body's damage tracks. and the fact that they don't need a couple of extra skills and an extra attribute just to use the (mostly unimpressive) special skills they actually do have. plus the fact that getting augmented doesn't cost them hacking ability. plus the fact that you can be a decker adept for even more of a dice pool increase.

heck, i'm probably missing something else, too. it's hard to remember the full list of disadvantages technomancers take so that they can do a handful of slightly improved matrix actions (for example, only the owner of that gun can choose to use matrix full defence... which means that the regular hacker can probably brick the gun for mostly the same results, since the target won't have a large defensive dice pool; you won't damage the guard, but a security guard without a gun is still not a threat just like a security guard that managed to blow up their own hand).

Which will never work if the gun/ammunition is not wireless enabled... As a person in such an environment, mine would never be. As a character, not then either. It is totally ignorant to be broadcasting with your weapon and its ammunition. Complete and utter stupidity, in fact.



That is not rule of cool, in my opinion, just ill-conceived mechanics and poor wireless implementation.

I felt that way at first. But when you look into it their goal isn't reached the way they implemented it. One way to do it would be to just have things be either wireless or off. The in-between state where the thing is on but not wireless enabled makes everything weird. At least to me.

I don't know TJ, it sounds like you just don't want deckers to do anything cool or at least in a timely manner. You seem to like SR4a's Matrix, which I thought was okayish, but honestly took way too long to do anything, making it pointless to be a hacker. Cybercombat was completely useless in SR4, there was no cost to messing up in the Matrix other than it taking longer to do anything, and everything just took too damn long to do anything anyway, since every single test was an extended test. If you can kill people faster than you can hack on the fly, then why bother hacking when you should just kill everyone in a facility and then steal the nexi or commlink or whatever has the paydata?

And what can you do when you hack? Steal data, turn off/on lights, open doors, edit camera feeds?

What can the mage do? Knock people out in one shot with a manabolt at no cost, throw people out of windows, mind control people, turn invisible, scout ahead with no fear of retaliation?

Sams and adepts; stab, shoot, dodge bullets, move faster than anyone, take hits better, be a ninja, etc.

Basically, there is no point in being a dedicated hacker in SR4, so what you should be is a street sam that does hacking on the side.

However in SR5? You won't have the money, resources, and stats to be a street sam/decker. Hackers are once again their own specialist archetype. And so you spend all your resources on being a top notch hot drek decker. Why does a team want you? Other than being the guy that has to go on the run to get the paydata/Macguffin. What good will a decker be when drek hits the fan? Well, now they can force the enemy team to turn off their wireless bonuses, giving your team more dice because they don't have to fear their stuff getting bricked. And if you don't think having more dice to throw than your opponents is important, then I don't know what to tell you other than your priorities being wrong.

My argument is that Hackers should not be hacking people... that is not their job. SO that may be where we differ. A HAcker in COmbat should be controlling communications and tactical coordination. not trying to hack someone's smartlink or wired reflexes.



Controll communications, Coordinate your team, run your surveillance, hack the environment (ideally done prior to your infiltration, but not impossible to do in the moment since you do not traverse a secure facility in seconds, but mor on the order of tens of minutes), etc.



Only if the facility has no countermeasures for the Magician. You knowe, things to keep him occipied like they have for the Hacker.



As a Hacker, I did my share pof such things in game. Not every action needs to be missored for the Hacker. It is often better to have a gun than a deck IN A FIREFIGHT.



Wrong, I played a very successful and powerful hacker in SR4A, for MANY years. He had far more effect on the game than the Street Sam or Mage did.



Wireless bonuses that will not be enabled if the opposition is smart, you mean... so not hackable. I don't care if the opponent has more dice than me, most of them do. I work around that limitation to eventually succeed (or sometimes lose) based upon my actions and not my Dice Pool. *shrug*

Hackers should not be hacking people. Crazy.



Probably useless.



Definitely useless -- you can't expect the hacker to also be the team tactical expert.



This is either managed ongoing in the case of hacking security cameras, or done by the rigger with his surveillance drones.



Nonspecific.



Magical countermeasures don't shove the Mage in a closet for the run -- they're handled in situ. The goal is not to keep people occupied individually, it's to keep them working together to overcome problems.



Bombastic language. The hacker has gotten some minor ability to affect people and their stuff, but it's still less ability than a bullet or a spell.



Actually, wireless bonuses will be enabled if the opposition is smart, because they'll either know they're covered or know to turn them off at the right time.

Not if they are professionals (Targets, not Hackers)... *shrug*

As I said, it is not worth fighting over.

Disruption of communications can be handle by anyone with a high enough jammer, so I don't think that is something that exactly requires a decker. In SR5 preventing your communication from being listen in on is now simply handled with a firewall + logic, but even in SR4 this simply required a high level encryption program to buy time, which also goes back to my statement of everything taking to long in the Matrix. In fact, say we want to listen in on someone's communications in SR4. Because of the mesh network, we need to be within mutual signal range, not really a problem in a firefight since if they can shoot you, you're probably close enough. Then you need to run a sniffer. Then you need to decrypt which can take some 2 to 5 combat passes. Say we've got 6 skill and 6 rating so that's 12 dice, on average that's 4 hits an action. So sniffer will probably take about 3 passes. And bingo, now you can listen in on the enemy tactics. In those 3 passes, the spell or gun slingers have probably killed at least one of them. And mechanically what does listening in on them get you? Is that 3 passes hacking in VR, better or worse than shooting a gun? Is it better or worse than turning on a jammer? Is the time investment better or worse? In SR5 at the very least you know that if you force someone to turn off their wireless, you know you just cost them 2 dice, and if you brick something you know they no longer have a piece of gear to use against your team. In SR4? Who the hell knows what you just did? Might have been pointless and a waste of time.

Tactical coordination is now the job of the face. So either we make the face's support job useless in combat by giving it to the decker, or we have to make all deckers faces. Both which I don't think solve the problem very well. Or we can just make everyone a Street Sam that can also do other things then killing people, but I do think it defeats the purpose when we make the different play styles all play the same in combat by shooting or throwing spells.

Surveillance is the role of a rigger.

From what you are describing environmental hacks take minutes, when combat is resolved in seconds. So that does help reinforce that deckers are pointless, and that everyone should be a Sam with some off skills in hacking. So you can murder everyone and then actually hack in piece for 10 minutes.




So are we trying to play in a world where the Matrix can and should be ignored? Despite the fact the the Matrix in setting and genre, is suppose to be so invasive into everyday life, that we can actually pretend that it's pointless and just be something in the background. A deck should be actually more dangerous than a gun, because it requires a high level of technical knowledge. "Geek the decker," should be a thing. I honestly think the Matrix should be even more invasive than it is now. Like you don't even get a choice. Everything is online. That's it. And you can never be offline. The constant paranoia that you are never alone and that you're always being watched, that should be real. But the Matrix as a setting and mechanic is so easy to just hand wave away, even in SR5, its sickening. The whole point of cyberpunk as a genre is to question the line of where man and machine end and where it gets really blurry. If you can hack a human like a machine, that's cyberpunk.

It is entertaining, DeathStrobe, how you spin the things I say in the worst possible light. I don't know about you, but I think our differences are in our expectations. I do NOT expect a Hacker to hack a system/device in 3 Seconds. Never have and never will. So my expectations are not the same as yours apparently are.

It is also entertaining that for every explanation I (or someone else) gives for what a Hacker can do in SR4A, others deem it as unimportant or irrelevant, or somehow relies upon the GM to work.

In a Firefight, I expect the Face to be shooting, same goes with a Rigger, a Street Sam and a Mage (whether it is with magic or guns), and possibly even the Hacker... In my experience, a FACE type character is not the best choice to be the leader, because he lacks information. The ONLY ones with all the information have tended to be the Hackers/Riggers, and often that niche is filled by the same character. The Cyberlogician is a Hacker (and not a Face, Street Sam, Mage, or other "Thing") for that very reason. As for time in Hacks. WHile people move, the Hacker hacks... All hacking we did in SR4A happened in real time with simultaneous actions by the others. So, I fail to see the problem that you are gettting worked up about. I do understand that in SR5, it will be faster, but I think that is a bad choice, becuase hacking at that speed is ludicrous, and strains verisimilitude far beyond the breaking point for me. I also do not think that most of the things that SR5 demands be Wirelss access should EVER be wireless accessible. Bad Implementation of an interesting Idea.

There are things I like about the 5th Edition Matrix. But the things I don't like about it taint the rest.

If we're going to speak in extremes and hyperbole to explain why the SR5 Matrix implementation is bad, should we not also take a look at the extremes of what made SR4's Matrix bad too? Or is it okay to look at what is wrong with SR5 without being critical of how previous systems were made and how SR5 addresses their shortcomings?

SR4's Matrix wasn't really that good. It was so horribly abstract with so many situational rules which all played differently and used different skills and stats, that it was damn near impossible to do it right without constantly looking up the rules.

Also, considering that Matrix actions used to be off the normal scale of time from the rest of the game, it doesn't really make sense why Hacking should take longer than combat, with the exceptions of epic hacks. If you can make 2 or 3 pass in the Matrix for every 1 pass in the meat, why wouldn't the Matrix stuff be done sooner? If you're moving at the speed of thought why is it that the guy who is limited by his meat body able to get more done than that hacker in full VR? Why should computers be slower than the meat exactly?

Funny... I never had that problem. *shrug*



You AREN'T taking 2-3 passes for each meat pass in SR4A. Not sure where you got that one from. You are not moving at the speed of thought. You move at the same speeed the Street Sam does, or the Face, or anyone else who has the same 3 passes the hacker has. Yes, A HAcker can eventually get 5 passes, assuming they want to do so, but that still does not goive them 2-3 passes for each Meat pass. Maybe that is where you are having issues. No wonder you want hacks to be faster.

You also heavily house-rule the SR4 Matrix.

I rebuilt the damn SR4 Matrix rules and I still couldn't stand them.

Previous editions. I should have clarified. SR2, 3, probably 1st too. Matrix did not move on the same time scale as normal combat. So if the setting has already established that the Matrix resolves faster than meat actions, why does it move at the same scale as normal combat in SR4? Playability, being the answer. However, the problem is that Matrix actions don't resolve at the same speed as combat, because they take much MUCH longer. So there is now a disconnect. While combat and Matrix tests move at the same rate, why is the hacker's VR Matrix tests taking much longer than the time it takes to resolve normal combat? What this leads to is that hacker throwing a bunch of dice while everyone waits for the hacker to get done with his extended tests, which artificially slow gameplay for no good reason.

As a note, SR3 Matrix Initiative was intended to run in the same timescale as Meat Initiative (and Astral Initiative). Pretty much any Matrix action could be resolved as a single Complex Action.

No, we actually did not. We DID try various adjustments over the years, but never for very long. The longest running change, was the usage of the optional rules in Unwired (Programs as Limits, Stat + Skill). In the end, we used/use the rules as written (though I DO prefer the Optional Rules).

And that speaks more to your dislike of the Matrix in SR4A, I would think, than any actual inability to use the rules. I absolutely hated previous editions Matrix prior to SR4 (though SR1 was interesting, what with being able to run naked in the Matrix) and consider SR4A to be about what I prefer. Again, I like some things in the SR5 Matrix, but some of it just rubs me the wrong way. Perfect Matrix would be to merge the Things I like form both systems and discard the things I hate from each. Ahh Well...

See, I see the time that Matrix Resolution assumed in Previous editions to be retarded and ignorant. But hat is just me, I guess. Hacking a system SHOULD take a bit longer to perform than pulling a trigger 3 or 4 times.

And yet you STILL had hours long Matrix Delves where everyone else went out for pizza. Not once in SR4A did it take more than a few minutes (play time) to resolve Matrix actions, unless we were involved in a Resonance Quest.

In my experience, the SR4A and SR5 Matrix takes just as many dice rolls and just as much real-life time to resolve. The only thing that's changed is the timeline in which the actions happen (across Combat Turns instead of Hours or Days.) Sometimes SR5 requires MORE dice rolling, if you consider all the opposed rolls the GM has to make.

So sure, it's "faster" if you consider the condensed in-game timeline. But I've found it takes just as much time at the table to resolve, preconceived notions to the contrary aside.

Man, I can't even believe I'm chiming on in this debate on the piece-of-shit SR5 rules. I hate SR5 so much it's killed my desire to play any edition of Shadowrun altogether.

Return to the Darkside of SR4A, Abschalten, we have cookies.

SR4A is my preferred edition of the game, yes. I'll hold out hope that SR6 is less of a clusterfuck, and stick with the old edition for the time being. But SR5 has been so awful in its badness that I've actually moved onto other games, ones I think have better futures ahead of them.

Lets prove it.

Lets steal some data off some VIP.

SR4

1. Scan for node (Threshold 4 or 15 if you don't know where the VIP is)
2. Hack on the Fly (Threshold 10 because the VIP has removed all rights from non admin users)
3. Data Search (Threshold 24 for hidden data)
4. Matrix Perception (To make sure there are no data bombs)
5. Decrypt (Threshold of 12, because who won't have a rating 6 encrypt running?)
6. Disarm Data Bomb (Hacking+Disarm vs rating 6 bomb x2. Doing between 6 and 36 matrix damage if failed?)
7. Transfer File
8. Edit Access Log
9. Logout

SR5

1. Matrix Perception (Look for hidden Icon, any net hits ask for information on file)
2. Disarm DataBomb (The rating of the data bomb is set with a Software + Logic vs device ratingx2, meaning the better your device the lower your data bomb rating will be, meaning the friendly hacker can actually beat it)
3. Hack on the Fly (Get 1 mark on the file)
4. Crack File (break protection)
5. Copy File
6. Jack out (and run like the Dickens.)

There, fewer tests, without insane numbers that are cheap and easy to get in SR4. How the hell can anyone think that SR4's Matrix is better than SR5's? SR4 is pure madness designed to be so secure its unplayable unless the GM purposely brings down the numbers just to make sure that the Shadowrunners can actually win.

I haven't played SR5 yet, but I have to agree with this analysis. Matrix rules seem much faster paced now. What really annoys me is the stuff about wireless bonuses and to some extent device ownership and those kinds of issues.

Except you double every SR5 roll with an opposed roll by the GM. How is that faster, exactly? SR5's Matrix rules are shitty piles of aborted shit.

And the sets of rolls for SR4 are typically 2-3+ each.

Opposed rolls give you 2 people rolling simultaneously. Extended tests are repeated rolls by the same person.

If you're a shitty TM/hacker and/or unlucky. I mean, for a starting hacker - Hacking (Hack on the Fly) 6 ( + program 6 + hotsim 2 + cyber 2 = 18. That's 18 dice starting off. Even if the guy has an R5 or R6 firewall, it'd usually only take two rolls anyway, and you have a not insignificant chance to make it in one if you're just going for user and bumping your access from inside. You could even sneak in more bonuses, if you're really looking to tweak shit.

I agree. To those that say there is less rolling in SR4, if we take DeathStrobe's example as an actuallity:
SR4

1. Scan for node (Threshold 4 or 15 if you don't know where the VIP is) (1 to 5 rolls)
2. Hack on the Fly (Threshold 10 because the VIP has removed all rights from non admin users) (2 to 4 rolls)
3. Data Search (Threshold 24 for hidden data) (4 to 10 rolls, good luck with diminishing pools)
4. Matrix Perception (To make sure there are no data bombs) (1 roll)
5. Decrypt (Threshold of 12, because who won't have a rating 6 encrypt running?) (3 to 5 rolls)
6. Disarm Data Bomb (Hacking+Disarm vs rating 6 bomb x2. Doing between 6 and 36 matrix damage if failed?) (2 rolls)
7. Transfer File (0 rolls?)
8. Edit Access Log (1 roll)
9. Logout (0 rolls)

So between 14 and 28 rolls, I tend to roll well below average so I'd be closer to the 28 mark (of course I would not have been able to make the threshold 24 at all).

SR5

1. Matrix Perception (Look for hidden Icon, any net hits ask for information on file) (2 rolls)
2. Disarm DataBomb (The rating of the data bomb is set with a Software + Logic vs device ratingx2, meaning the better your device the lower your data bomb rating will be, meaning the friendly hacker can actually beat it) (2 rolls)
3. Hack on the Fly (Get 1 mark on the file) (2 rolls)
4. Crack File (break protection) (2 rolls)
5. Copy File (2 rolls)
6. Jack out (and run like the Dickens.) (0 rolls)

This makes it 10 rolls...
[sarcasm]
I know the US is teaching a "new math" so is that how 10>14?
[/sarcasm]

It ends up being more rolls if you start with user and increase your access from inside.

I am quite interested to see how the matrix rules (combat and otherwise) actually play out in 5E. I think our group had decided that characters designed to specifically use (and abuse) the matrix were mostly boring when it came time to get some activity done in the matrix. It didn't help that the hacking section of the book wasn't as helpful or fun as the rest of the core book (in my opinion).

The only part of 5th edition that I am not a fan of is, surprise, surprise, wireless. Not for the function of wireless perse, but for it being something else that the player (and GM) has to track. Previously I had asked players to tell me when they were activating wired reflexes (and foci for that matter). Now, depending on the character, I may have to track several pieces of gear/cyber as being Wi-Fi on or off. I may be overestimating the trouble but that's one of the issues that I've foreseen.

Easy... It is called an Opinion. We all have them. And it is my opinion that the SR4A Matrix (using Optional Rules) is overall better than SR5. I would, however, mesh some of the rules from both editions to create the optimal Edition. But that is just me. Others disagree. *shrug*

Why isn't the Sr5 guy disabling the Data Bomb?
Why isn't the Sr5 guy actually looking for the potential Data Bomb, since the initial 2 hits (that you posit) from matrix perception is not likely enough to find the hidden file and the data bomb on it from outside the system itself.
And let's not forget that the Matrix Perception Test you are so proud of only tells you that there are hidden icons, it does not tell you which one of those icons you need to hack. If the area has 16 Icons running Silent, which one do you hack? Sounds like Matrix Perception tests on all of them to be sure. Hope there are not a lot of them.

See, you are making a LOT of assumptions here. Having played a Hacker in SR4A for a lot of years, I have NEVER had to make 14 rolls to hit a Rating 5/6 Device to find a single piece of information. Of course, I generally look for more than a single piece of information when the character is about his business, and he aims to gain control of more things than said single piece of information, and I STILL don't roll the dice as many times as you seem to think it should require.

It is far easier to hack in SR4A than you seem to think it is. I think that may be because we seem to have very different ideas on what is useful to hack and what is not. I don't tend to willy-nilly hack the common man... he has nothing that I care about, and even if he did, who cares about a small end comlink. Hell, even the low-end businesses have nothing I care about for the most part, unless I am using their devices for more clandestine work, and they are a convenient (if unknowing) asset.

As some have mentioned, it looks to me like the number of rolls is about the same (though SR5 may be more immersive). Where SR5 may have a step up is the presentation of the actual layers of the Matrix, which will become far more complex when the Matrix Book comes out, I can guarantee you. I would be willing to bet there will be rules in the books that mimic what you found in Unwired. I fully expect to have nested Hosts, and other such things make their re-appearance.

In the end, though, my real dislike of SR5's Matrix is the ham-handed way that wireless and wireless bonuses were implemented. Total instantaneous turn off.

Its true that the Matrix Perception Test might be the longest part of the SR5 Data Steal, but if we know details on the icon we're searching for, then it'll become a simple oppose test. So we know its a commlink, and then we can have our rigger or face help spot the VIP, to learn its physical location, this should reduce the number of things we're looking for down to one, assuming of course we know who the VIP is, and it should be safe to assume that a Mr. Johnson would give us the identity of our VIP. Also since we are now using our rigger and face, it also brings more characters in on the hack, which I personally, think makes it less boring.

And even if we only get one net hit on our perception test, since we now know the icon, we can make another perception test to get all the hits we really need and learn: the commlink's firewall, if it has the MacGuffin data we're looking for, if the data has a data bomb. I guess we'd probably have to make a specific Perception test on the file to learn if it has a data bomb, but that's not an oppose test anymore, so that's really easy. That'd only be about 2 or 3 rolls, still not as long as if we used all the rules of SR4's Matrix.

Actually, he is, in Step 2.
To be fair, DMiller doesn't discuss how man hits that he gets. He's counting dice rolls, i.e. tests. In the case of the Matrix Perception he's talking about two tests: the decker doing Matrix Perception and the ST doing a Logic + Sleaze to stay hidden.

Now, it should be 3 tests. A simple test to tell you that there's a hidden icon out there, and then the opposed test to spot it. The nice thing is that if the opposed test is a normal Matrix Perception test, and if you get a lot of net hits you can get a lot of information.

In this you're absolutely correct. This is a flaw in the SR5 Matrix system. An abundance of hidden icons can bog things down greatly.

Now, where I'm a little puzzled about the two examples is this: Is the first example what would be needed to hack somebody's commlink? If it's more a host-type situation the second example needs some revision to keep things fair.

I could have sworn that if you knew one detail of the icon that you could reduce your Perception test to those icons, but I can't seem to find that in the book. Maybe it was clarification I read somewhere on the SR5 boards.

They're both commlinks data steal off of a person. Though I guess we could expand this to be a host (for SR5) and a corp facility node (for SR4). There would have to be a few changes, of course, but not that many extra steps. Or we can also make it a security cam hack and door opening hack, since those are also very common Matrix activities on a run, and I'm very confident that SR5 will be much quicker.

But that is a BIG change in your position... If you know the target, it is no different than the SR4 Hackerwho also knows. At that point, they are identical. 1 Roll (not the possible 5 you were arguing for - so with your numbers, we are now down to 10=10 rolls... looks fairly equal to me). If they do not know, then They search for it. My Hacker could hit Threshold 15 in about 3-4 Rolls (Averages being what they are). Good Luck with that one when searching a location with all the likely running silent equipment. Even assuming 1 or 2 devices per person in an area, you will likely never find your target before the SR4A hacker has completed his job and gone merrily on his way. And that is assuming they are within 100 Meters of you.



See, My SR4 Experience (and your numbers, adjusted for the holes you left) tells me that it will likely take no more rolls than it would require in SR5. *shrug* From what I have heard from those who have played Hackers for a bit... it is about the same, so even that bears out. I will still give you the immersion is likely better in SR5, though.

I have a vast ignorance of SR4/4A Matrix workings. It does seem a bit complicated. As they're both for commlink steals, the SR5 example seems mostly ok to me.

One thing does kinda surprise me though, and doesn't make much sense: Set Data Bomb. I'm surprised it's defined as strictly an Illegal (Sleaze) Action, even if you own the File & Device it's sitting on. I would expect two different scenarios, a Simple Test if you own File & Device and the one described if you're Hacking the device and want to set a DB on something you don't own.

Still, the two further examples DeathStrobe mentions could be quite informative.

Only if you throw complications in there for one and not the other (like you did in your first example).

Besides, Cyberpunk 2020 has both systems beat for speed of stuff like locks, Camera's, Video Boards, and remotes. Access the menu, select target, roll, done. Either you are in or you are not. Would that it was so easy in Shadowrun.

Three reasons:

1) Security deckers are (usually) registered by the demiGOD and allowed to perform these activities without the danger of convergence (in other words, the only people who start an OS from setting a data bomb are illegal hackers).

2) Data Bombs are hilariously dangerous, so you don't want people setting them and then dropping the files out in public if you can stop them.

3) You can always cut the wireless off of everything and do all the "illegal" actions you want without calling the Matrix Police -- Device Rating here is simply setting a difficulty (more secure / higher DR systems take more skill and effort, since you're effectively hijacking the system to do massive feedback -- better systems are harder to get to do this).

EDIT: This leads to a weird scenario where you're better off setting a data bomb on a DR 1 commlink and transferring it over to a higher DR device.

I would honestly rewrite this rule as (short version):

Determine data bomb rating. Roll Software+Logic[Sleaze] vs Rating x2. Net hits are wasted.

It does help that the target device has the option not to defend - so if you're setting a data bomb to secure something you own, you can have it not defend.

See. that's the piece I was missing. Is that stated as a general rule anywhere? A lot of Matrix actions seem to list two different scenarios: If you own the device and if you don't.

Add the holes you speak of in to my example then. I'd like you to be able to be very specific about this, and not speak in vague terms that prevents us from arguing your point. If SR5 does take, just as long, you need to be able to prove it. And if its true, then its true. But I have already outlined how it is not true. The burden of proof is now on you.