See, I see the time that Matrix Resolution assumed in Previous editions to be retarded and ignorant. But hat is just me, I guess. Hacking a system SHOULD take a bit longer to perform than pulling a trigger 3 or 4 times. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And yet you STILL had hours long Matrix Delves where everyone else went out for pizza. Not once in SR4A did it take more than a few minutes (play time) to resolve Matrix actions, unless we were involved in a Resonance Quest. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

In my experience, the SR4A and SR5 Matrix takes just as many dice rolls and just as much real-life time to resolve. The only thing that's changed is the timeline in which the actions happen (across Combat Turns instead of Hours or Days.) Sometimes SR5 requires MORE dice rolling, if you consider all the opposed rolls the GM has to make.

So sure, it's "faster" if you consider the condensed in-game timeline. But I've found it takes just as much time at the table to resolve, preconceived notions to the contrary aside.

Man, I can't even believe I'm chiming on in this debate on the piece-of-shit SR5 rules. I hate SR5 so much it's killed my desire to play any edition of Shadowrun altogether.

Return to the Darkside of SR4A, Abschalten, we have cookies. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

SR4A is my preferred edition of the game, yes. I'll hold out hope that SR6 is less of a clusterfuck, and stick with the old edition for the time being. But SR5 has been so awful in its badness that I've actually moved onto other games, ones I think have better futures ahead of them.

Lets prove it.

Lets steal some data off some VIP.

SR4

1. Scan for node (Threshold 4 or 15 if you don't know where the VIP is)
2. Hack on the Fly (Threshold 10 because the VIP has removed all rights from non admin users)
3. Data Search (Threshold 24 for hidden data)
4. Matrix Perception (To make sure there are no data bombs)
5. Decrypt (Threshold of 12, because who won't have a rating 6 encrypt running?)
6. Disarm Data Bomb (Hacking+Disarm vs rating 6 bomb x2. Doing between 6 and 36 matrix damage if failed?)
7. Transfer File
8. Edit Access Log
9. Logout

SR5

1. Matrix Perception (Look for hidden Icon, any net hits ask for information on file)
2. Disarm DataBomb (The rating of the data bomb is set with a Software + Logic vs device ratingx2, meaning the better your device the lower your data bomb rating will be, meaning the friendly hacker can actually beat it)
3. Hack on the Fly (Get 1 mark on the file)
4. Crack File (break protection)
5. Copy File
6. Jack out (and run like the Dickens.)

There, fewer tests, without insane numbers that are cheap and easy to get in SR4. How the hell can anyone think that SR4's Matrix is better than SR5's? SR4 is pure madness designed to be so secure its unplayable unless the GM purposely brings down the numbers just to make sure that the Shadowrunners can actually win.

This post has been edited by DeathStrobe: Oct 25 2013, 05:09 AM

I haven't played SR5 yet, but I have to agree with this analysis. Matrix rules seem much faster paced now. What really annoys me is the stuff about wireless bonuses and to some extent device ownership and those kinds of issues.

Except you double every SR5 roll with an opposed roll by the GM. How is that faster, exactly? SR5's Matrix rules are shitty piles of aborted shit.

And the sets of rolls for SR4 are typically 2-3+ each.

Opposed rolls give you 2 people rolling simultaneously. Extended tests are repeated rolls by the same person.

If you're a shitty TM/hacker and/or unlucky. I mean, for a starting hacker - Hacking (Hack on the Fly) 6 ((IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) + program 6 + hotsim 2 + cyber 2 = 18. That's 18 dice starting off. Even if the guy has an R5 or R6 firewall, it'd usually only take two rolls anyway, and you have a not insignificant chance to make it in one if you're just going for user and bumping your access from inside. You could even sneak in more bonuses, if you're really looking to tweak shit.

I agree. To those that say there is less rolling in SR4, if we take DeathStrobe's example as an actuallity:
SR4

1. Scan for node (Threshold 4 or 15 if you don't know where the VIP is) (1 to 5 rolls)
2. Hack on the Fly (Threshold 10 because the VIP has removed all rights from non admin users) (2 to 4 rolls)
3. Data Search (Threshold 24 for hidden data) (4 to 10 rolls, good luck with diminishing pools)
4. Matrix Perception (To make sure there are no data bombs) (1 roll)
5. Decrypt (Threshold of 12, because who won't have a rating 6 encrypt running?) (3 to 5 rolls)
6. Disarm Data Bomb (Hacking+Disarm vs rating 6 bomb x2. Doing between 6 and 36 matrix damage if failed?) (2 rolls)
7. Transfer File (0 rolls?)
8. Edit Access Log (1 roll)
9. Logout (0 rolls)

So between 14 and 28 rolls, I tend to roll well below average so I'd be closer to the 28 mark (of course I would not have been able to make the threshold 24 at all).

SR5

1. Matrix Perception (Look for hidden Icon, any net hits ask for information on file) (2 rolls)
2. Disarm DataBomb (The rating of the data bomb is set with a Software + Logic vs device ratingx2, meaning the better your device the lower your data bomb rating will be, meaning the friendly hacker can actually beat it) (2 rolls)
3. Hack on the Fly (Get 1 mark on the file) (2 rolls)
4. Crack File (break protection) (2 rolls)
5. Copy File (2 rolls)
6. Jack out (and run like the Dickens.) (0 rolls)

This makes it 10 rolls...
[sarcasm]
I know the US is teaching a "new math" so is that how 10>14?
[/sarcasm]

It ends up being more rolls if you start with user and increase your access from inside.

I am quite interested to see how the matrix rules (combat and otherwise) actually play out in 5E. I think our group had decided that characters designed to specifically use (and abuse) the matrix were mostly boring when it came time to get some activity done in the matrix. It didn't help that the hacking section of the book wasn't as helpful or fun as the rest of the core book (in my opinion).

The only part of 5th edition that I am not a fan of is, surprise, surprise, wireless. Not for the function of wireless perse, but for it being something else that the player (and GM) has to track. Previously I had asked players to tell me when they were activating wired reflexes (and foci for that matter). Now, depending on the character, I may have to track several pieces of gear/cyber as being Wi-Fi on or off. I may be overestimating the trouble but that's one of the issues that I've foreseen.

Easy... It is called an Opinion. We all have them. And it is my opinion that the SR4A Matrix (using Optional Rules) is overall better than SR5. I would, however, mesh some of the rules from both editions to create the optimal Edition. But that is just me. Others disagree. *shrug*

Why isn't the Sr5 guy disabling the Data Bomb?
Why isn't the Sr5 guy actually looking for the potential Data Bomb, since the initial 2 hits (that you posit) from matrix perception is not likely enough to find the hidden file and the data bomb on it from outside the system itself.
And let's not forget that the Matrix Perception Test you are so proud of only tells you that there are hidden icons, it does not tell you which one of those icons you need to hack. If the area has 16 Icons running Silent, which one do you hack? Sounds like Matrix Perception tests on all of them to be sure. Hope there are not a lot of them.

See, you are making a LOT of assumptions here. Having played a Hacker in SR4A for a lot of years, I have NEVER had to make 14 rolls to hit a Rating 5/6 Device to find a single piece of information. Of course, I generally look for more than a single piece of information when the character is about his business, and he aims to gain control of more things than said single piece of information, and I STILL don't roll the dice as many times as you seem to think it should require.

It is far easier to hack in SR4A than you seem to think it is. I think that may be because we seem to have very different ideas on what is useful to hack and what is not. I don't tend to willy-nilly hack the common man... he has nothing that I care about, and even if he did, who cares about a small end comlink. Hell, even the low-end businesses have nothing I care about for the most part, unless I am using their devices for more clandestine work, and they are a convenient (if unknowing) asset.

As some have mentioned, it looks to me like the number of rolls is about the same (though SR5 may be more immersive). Where SR5 may have a step up is the presentation of the actual layers of the Matrix, which will become far more complex when the Matrix Book comes out, I can guarantee you. I would be willing to bet there will be rules in the books that mimic what you found in Unwired. I fully expect to have nested Hosts, and other such things make their re-appearance.

In the end, though, my real dislike of SR5's Matrix is the ham-handed way that wireless and wireless bonuses were implemented. Total instantaneous turn off.

Its true that the Matrix Perception Test might be the longest part of the SR5 Data Steal, but if we know details on the icon we're searching for, then it'll become a simple oppose test. So we know its a commlink, and then we can have our rigger or face help spot the VIP, to learn its physical location, this should reduce the number of things we're looking for down to one, assuming of course we know who the VIP is, and it should be safe to assume that a Mr. Johnson would give us the identity of our VIP. Also since we are now using our rigger and face, it also brings more characters in on the hack, which I personally, think makes it less boring.

And even if we only get one net hit on our perception test, since we now know the icon, we can make another perception test to get all the hits we really need and learn: the commlink's firewall, if it has the MacGuffin data we're looking for, if the data has a data bomb. I guess we'd probably have to make a specific Perception test on the file to learn if it has a data bomb, but that's not an oppose test anymore, so that's really easy. That'd only be about 2 or 3 rolls, still not as long as if we used all the rules of SR4's Matrix.

Actually, he is, in Step 2.
To be fair, DMiller doesn't discuss how man hits that he gets. He's counting dice rolls, i.e. tests. In the case of the Matrix Perception he's talking about two tests: the decker doing Matrix Perception and the ST doing a Logic + Sleaze to stay hidden.

Now, it should be 3 tests. A simple test to tell you that there's a hidden icon out there, and then the opposed test to spot it. The nice thing is that if the opposed test is a normal Matrix Perception test, and if you get a lot of net hits you can get a lot of information.

In this you're absolutely correct. This is a flaw in the SR5 Matrix system. An abundance of hidden icons can bog things down greatly.

Now, where I'm a little puzzled about the two examples is this: Is the first example what would be needed to hack somebody's commlink? If it's more a host-type situation the second example needs some revision to keep things fair.

I could have sworn that if you knew one detail of the icon that you could reduce your Perception test to those icons, but I can't seem to find that in the book. Maybe it was clarification I read somewhere on the SR5 boards.

They're both commlinks data steal off of a person. Though I guess we could expand this to be a host (for SR5) and a corp facility node (for SR4). There would have to be a few changes, of course, but not that many extra steps. Or we can also make it a security cam hack and door opening hack, since those are also very common Matrix activities on a run, and I'm very confident that SR5 will be much quicker.

But that is a BIG change in your position... If you know the target, it is no different than the SR4 Hackerwho also knows. At that point, they are identical. 1 Roll (not the possible 5 you were arguing for - so with your numbers, we are now down to 10=10 rolls... looks fairly equal to me). If they do not know, then They search for it. My Hacker could hit Threshold 15 in about 3-4 Rolls (Averages being what they are). Good Luck with that one when searching a location with all the likely running silent equipment. Even assuming 1 or 2 devices per person in an area, you will likely never find your target before the SR4A hacker has completed his job and gone merrily on his way. And that is assuming they are within 100 Meters of you.



See, My SR4 Experience (and your numbers, adjusted for the holes you left) tells me that it will likely take no more rolls than it would require in SR5. *shrug* From what I have heard from those who have played Hackers for a bit... it is about the same, so even that bears out. I will still give you the immersion is likely better in SR5, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I have a vast ignorance of SR4/4A Matrix workings. It does seem a bit complicated. As they're both for commlink steals, the SR5 example seems mostly ok to me.

One thing does kinda surprise me though, and doesn't make much sense: Set Data Bomb. I'm surprised it's defined as strictly an Illegal (Sleaze) Action, even if you own the File & Device it's sitting on. I would expect two different scenarios, a Simple Test if you own File & Device and the one described if you're Hacking the device and want to set a DB on something you don't own.

Still, the two further examples DeathStrobe mentions could be quite informative.

Only if you throw complications in there for one and not the other (like you did in your first example). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

Besides, Cyberpunk 2020 has both systems beat for speed of stuff like locks, Camera's, Video Boards, and remotes. Access the menu, select target, roll, done. Either you are in or you are not. Would that it was so easy in Shadowrun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Three reasons:

1) Security deckers are (usually) registered by the demiGOD and allowed to perform these activities without the danger of convergence (in other words, the only people who start an OS from setting a data bomb are illegal hackers).

2) Data Bombs are hilariously dangerous, so you don't want people setting them and then dropping the files out in public if you can stop them.

3) You can always cut the wireless off of everything and do all the "illegal" actions you want without calling the Matrix Police -- Device Rating here is simply setting a difficulty (more secure / higher DR systems take more skill and effort, since you're effectively hijacking the system to do massive feedback -- better systems are harder to get to do this).

EDIT: This leads to a weird scenario where you're better off setting a data bomb on a DR 1 commlink and transferring it over to a higher DR device.

I would honestly rewrite this rule as (short version):

Determine data bomb rating. Roll Software+Logic[Sleaze] vs Rating x2. Net hits are wasted.

It does help that the target device has the option not to defend - so if you're setting a data bomb to secure something you own, you can have it not defend.

See. that's the piece I was missing. Is that stated as a general rule anywhere? A lot of Matrix actions seem to list two different scenarios: If you own the device and if you don't.

Add the holes you speak of in to my example then. I'd like you to be able to be very specific about this, and not speak in vague terms that prevents us from arguing your point. If SR5 does take, just as long, you need to be able to prove it. And if its true, then its true. But I have already outlined how it is not true. The burden of proof is now on you.