Nice read, Overkill. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

The woman is a mundane, no spells on her.

Her aura reads as suspicious, sad, and frightened.

?

Nanny, and I am just kidding with you.

Ahhh I see, lol

Jees what am I, a racist?

I don't know, but I bet you're punctual (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Hmmm... would we be be total dicks if Jack and Grease set up an appointment to look at the house and casually convinced her that we could find her husband's murderer for a small fee?

Hmm, I could maybe work with that.

That said, have we figured out our play with Sanders? I was considering going with the "fake undercover" angle..

Amy is casting Control Thoughts at Force 4 with Magic 6 + Spellcasting 6 = 12 dice

12d6.hits(5)=2

Using Edge to reroll unsuccessful dice.

10d6.hits(5)=3

Hitting the limit of 4.

Drain 13 dice

13d6.hits(5)=413d6.hits(5)=4

No drain. She is now sustaining the spell.

Noticing magic allows for a perception roll against a threshold of 2 in this case. Use modifiers as you see fit. If you think this is relevant Amy has Agi 3, Sneaking 2, and urban specialization.

Let's see what effect this will have. It's a new way to conduct investigations (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I think that would work best, particularly if we can a) get some fake garbage badges and b) she really seems to want to talk.

Oops I hope I'm not ruining your plot to get to Mrs. Manuel. I used a more.. direct approach.

Holy shit! Too bad you don't have Influence...

Nah, that is actually our plan with Sanders from the Mitchell murder. Although hell, we can probably show up as fake Lone Star to follow up on the felony magic use done to Mrs. Manuel, LOL.

Ok - so quick question before you cast this spell. Not does Mrs. Manuel have the chance of seeing you cast the spell (as you are basically standing right in front of her) - Mental Manipulation spells are very intrusive - from the Missions FAQ:

"There are currently no restrictions on Mental Manipulation spells. That said, characters and gamemasters should be well
aware of how these spells work. Magic is very dangerous in Shadowrun, and everyone is scared of it. When the unusual happens,
magic is the first thing they blame, and most people will react very badly when magic is used against them. And of all the magic
out there, spells that can control and mentally manipulate an individual are the most feared. It’s a violation of the highest order.
Using this kind of magic against friends, allies, and contacts is an incredibly bad idea and will always have some kind of negative
repercussion. Using it against a Mr. Johnson is usually suicidal.
Spells that take direct control on a person’s mind or actions are overt Manipulation spells, and while the spell is active the
controlled person will usually act and react as if all the actions are his own, as soon as the spell is dropped they will immediately
know that they have been violated. These spells currently include Control Thoughts and Mob Mind.
Some spells are subtler, and they simply guide and suggest. These are covert spells, and while they’re more risky to use
since they allow the target some free will and choice, they also won’t always realize that the idea wasn’t their own unless it’s
something wildly out of character. Using Influence to suggest a guard wants to grab some coffee or use the head is normal, but
suggesting they shoot their coworker in the head is likely out of character for him, so he will stop and wonder where that thought
came from. If you’re lucky, he’ll simply disregard it. If not, he’ll blame magic and pull an alarm.
Regardless of whether the Manipulation magic is overt or covert, there’s always the chance that powerful magic will be noticed.
The higher the force of the spell, the more likely it is to be seen. Spellcasting always uses the Perceiving Magic rules (see p. 280, SR5).
Finally, remember that spellcasting leaves a trace. Every magician has a unique magical aura, and they leave a temporary imprint
on astral space whenever they use magic (Astral Signature, see p. 312, SR5). In the hands of a skilled forensic mage, these
imprints can be traced back to their caster."

Now, in some cases, it doesn't matter whether or not the target knows he is being controlled (controlling a guard to shoot another guard or something like that) - but it may be problematic in this particular case.

I am not, despite the fact it may look that way, trying to dissuade you from performing this action. I wanted to make sure that you as a player are aware of the possible ramifications of casting the spell.

It may not be an issue, given what she knows about you (which is virtually nothing).

Just let me know, and I will be happy to roll her resistance test (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Felony, shlefony. We're shadowrunners, and I keep some hope that she won't notice it happening (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Control thoughts is a pretty subtle spell that done well, the victim won't know it ever happened.

Edit: Oh shit!!!

Ok.. didn't really realise it was that bad. The RAW doesn't give me that impression at all! I should have paid attention to the errata, I haven't looked at them yet.

So all right fine (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I won't mind rape our friendly witness.. unless she keeps refusing to talk that is (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Unnecessary post by me - deleted (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Might want to check out Lobo's post above, LOL.

ETA: Fun. mindraping cross-posting going on here.
Yeah, you really want Influence if you want to do it subtly. From what I understand, the distinction between Control Actions and Control Thoughts is that you can use the controlled's Skill ranks to perform actions with Control Thoughts. I think you have to use your own with Control Actions.

I edited the IC post given the new information. I'm going out now, but I'll take a closer look at the whole thing tomorrow morning. I'm not sure I would have taken Control Thoughts given the spell's effect being different from what I imagined. Influence would have been a more logical choice for my character, but we can talk about that tomorrow.

For what it's worth, I would think a Sprawls Scavenger would likely take Influence over Control Thoughts.

@Jack,

The difference between Control Actions and Control Thoughts is:

Control Actions is like using Remote Operation when Rigging - it is like you have a joystick moving the target around.

1) The target acts on your initiative
2) You use your skills instead of the target's
3) It takes a Complex action on your part to make the target take any action. (If you use your Complex Action to make him do a Simple Action, then his other Simple Action is wasted).

Control Thoughts is more like what we consider mind control - and to continue the Rigging comparison, is like Autopilot.

1) You cast the spell. (which takes a complex action, unless you want to reckless spellcast)
2) You then have to take a complex action to give the target a command.
3) The target then acts on his initiative and uses his skills.

@Chrome,

I don't have a problem with you swapping Control Thoughts with Influence.

In that case I will swap, because I really believe that it fits the way I see the character a whole lot better than control thoughts, and I didn't imagine control thoughts the right way before. I have to say that I actually like the way it is set up, and I love the explanation you quoted, which makes so much sense, fits the setting, and is fun and balanced.

For reference the RAW stated this (hence my misconception):
A victim of mental manipulation spell may roll to
notice the magical effect according to the usual rules
for Perceiving Magic (p. 280). Some of the less subtle
mental spells (Control Actions) are pretty obvious, but
more subtle spells (like Control Thoughts) can be pretty
insidious.

I'll leave the scene the way it is, or I can go back and change it back to the exactly the way it was before since the spell Influence fits exactly what I had written, I don't mind either way. But I'm glad my character can have influence rather than control thoughts in the future.

It was an interesting debate to read, too bad I went to bed early. Which happens a lot with an 8-month baby in the house.

It makes perfect sense that people would be creeped out when magic affects their lives, and especially fearful of any magic that could control their very thoughts.

Good idea, but probably best that we hold off using tactics like that until absolutely necessary. Besides Jack and Grease can try again by setting up an appointment to see the house. Once Grease is inside, I have all the faith in the world that he will get some details out of the widow, and probably make her feel like he is doing her a favor in the process.

Ok - so what is up next for Amy and Overkill?

Yeah, what Lobo referenced was Bull's interpretation for Missions in the Missions FAQ. Some of the Missions stuff is indeed errata and has been captured as such. Some of it is specifically for use in Missions games (how availability tests work for example). The part about Control Thoughts is more of a FAQ item than errata from what I recall. But I think its a fair ruling. Otherwise, I don't really see the reason for the Influence spell (Control Thoughts and Influence are both F-1 Drain, the distinction between P and S is kind of meaningless in this case if they did the same thing).

ETA: You know, I gave it a bit more thought and I think RAW is just not really written well. I think when they are talking about subtle and insidious, they're more talking about what it looks like to an outside observer. So, someone watching a security guard under the influence of Control Actions would notice their movements were a bit herky-jerky, while a guard under the influence of Control Thoughts would be as smooth and natural as they normally are.

At this point, I am thinking about asking these kids if any of their parents are home. The file said there was no attempt to search for witnesses, somebody may have seen something, or heard about someone who saw it happen, etc. At the very least we could get a few details, as we don't even know what time of day the shooting occurred.

I would like ask Amy to take the lead on approaching the kids, they would probably feel more comfortable talking to a young woman than an old German guy.

We are also getting to the point where Jack and Grease can start doing stuff - thoughts on anything you need from me?

We don't have Sander's commcode, right? Just her office location, in the CAS?
-DrZ