Really? In my book, any Edge value above 3 was a waste of resources. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Well, 3 was surely the sweet number of benefit/cost ratio. But on our games, if something bad was going to happen, our GM would ask us to roll Edge, the one with less successes was the one to be hit with a rock on the head (or a sniper shot from far away);

Entertainingly, it was always the other way around for me.... I ALWAYS chose Hacker over Technomancer in SR4A. Yes, a TM is strong and their sprites are pretty cool, but my Cyberlogician ALWAYS gave the TM a run for his money, and was often better than he was, both IN the Matrix, and Most Definitely OUT of the Matrix.

I had to come up with reasons to play a TM in SR4A. And in the end, I never actually played one, because Hackers were just better in most ways, in my opinion. *shrug*

Funny thing, in the SR4 games I've been in or ran, there have been more technomancers than hackers, and this is even with me not using the software degradation rules in Unwired. As for Edge, my players are currently saving their karma to get to 3 (we'll see if they shoot for 4).

For a friend's game that's in SR5, no one yet has played a technomancer while there have been a few deckers among the players that have cycled through. Funny thing, the deckers have done more shooting in combat than decking (combat shotgun with APDS & BF is apparently better than a cyberdeck (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif) ). Same thing the hackers/technomancers have done in my SR4 games.

hope you don't mind only being able to choose human.

This is not the fault of Technomancers so much as the fault of the SR5 Priority system and how much it (over-)charges you to be a non-human metatype, an entirely different rant topic.

In Combat, Hackers SHOULD be shooting and not trying to hack/brick opponents. Shooting is more effective, and always has been.

Really? In my book, any Edge value above 3 was a waste of resources. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

In SR5, mundane humans start with a minimum Edge of 5.

Edge is a wonky Attribute. It is not essential, but on the other hand, everything else being equal, a high Edge can make a huge difference. I played a character with an Edge of 6 in a one-shot PVP game, and it was a major factor in keeping her alive.

We actually had a saying for that on our group: "Don't bring a computer to gunfight." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

ok, so you remember how we covered the fact that a technomancer needs:

- high priority for attributes since each mental attribute is rather important
- high priority for technomancy since otherwise you can't be a technomancer
- high priority for skills to cover the full set of skills that a regular decker needs (two skill groups, or 8 skills), plus either another skill group or two more skills. all of which need to be at high values.

and then you remember how we also covered that they can't effectively compensate for their low physical attributes with augmentations or magic, right?

and at this point, they also have to be human or elf, with at best moderately good edge.

none of this is sounding new to you, i hope?

so then, they need 8 skills *just to have basic levels of proficiency* in their specialized area.

now, in addition to this, i'm going to posit that in order to function on a basic level as a shadowrunner, they're also going to need a defensive skill, at least one offensive skill (general purpose), and at least 1-2 social skills, all at a moderately decent level. plus perception. more is better, of course; our current theoretical technomancer likely won't have any melee capability at all, for example, and stealth is a very useful skill to have as well.

so then... you tell me. what priority is going to skills that you expect them to have *any* room at all for heavy weapons which are unsuitable for general use? bearing in mind that even with priority A in attributes, the best they're going to be able to put into their mental attributes is a total of 16 points above baseline (so they could have 1/1/1/1/5/5/5/5, for example. of course, realistically, this individual will be useless in attacking others, useless in defending himself, and useless in any other sort of physical activity such as being stealthy or climbing a wall (both of which are examples of fairly common requirements in a shadowrun) unless you really max out the related skills as well.

or, maybe you could put attributes to B so you can put skills in A, and have only C for resonance. [sarcasm]i'm sure your 3 points of resonance and 1 complex form are going to make the average decker green with envy.[/sarcasm].

so then, maybe we put attributes to C, skills to A, and resonance to B? oh wait, now we only have *16* attributes to spread around. that's enough for 1/1/1/1/3/3/3/3 in the attribute line. yeah, i'm sure that decker, with only needing to max log and have a decent willpower for most tests (and being able to use augmentations to boost his lackluster physical stats and increase his log even further), is just *quaking* in his boots in terror that he might meet this guy in a dark (matrix) alley. plus, that still leaves us with only 2 complex forms. which isn't all that bad, really, since the most we can start off with given our trash stats is 3 anyways. also not that bad since most of the complex forms suck royally. too bad our fading resistance stat sucks unless we go human and dump edge. (elf isn't even an option if we want higher than 3 resonance from priorities).

so please, do tell... how is this competitive with a decker that needs two fewer skills, can spend priority A on resources and B on skills (C can go to race, there's not a *huge* difference between C attributes and D or E, and our decker doesn't need incredible attributes like our technomancer), gets to use a deck that swaps attributes and programs around at will, gets to use programs *at all*, doesn't need to spend karma or priority on an extra special attribute, and can upgrade both his core and secondary skill sets with augmentations? heck, if we *really* want to drive the point home, we *could* choose adept in priority D since we only really need 1-2 points of essence in augmentations, and now we've got even more bonuses (increase our limits, add to our hacking dice pools, etc) plus the ability to use qi focuses to adjust our abilities as needed.

Am I the only one that wants to scribble in the margins of my priority chart/page "fuck it, every attribute priority gets, like, four more points," or do other folks kind of feel the same?

Am I the only one that wants to scribble in the margins of my priority chart/page "fuck it, every attribute priority gets, like, four more points," or do other folks kind of feel the same?

I think the problem is that SR4 limited how many Attribute points you could get, because they were so comparatively valuable. But the thing is, people would usually take the 200 points, both for that very reason, and because 200 points was honestly not that much spread out among eight Attributes. That's four 4's and four 3's - even getting one or two 5's usually entailed some sacrifices.

So that's a big problem when you try to shoehorn Attributes into a priority system. The maximum is also the minimum. They made it slightly more workable by having a bit more at the A priority, but that still means most people will want A or B for Attributes, maybe C if they are playing a metatype with good Attribute bonuses, but no one will want D or E for Attributes. Especially since SR5 tried to make every Attribute essential for something, meaning low Attributes will hurt you even more.

Am I the only one that wants to scribble in the margins of my priority chart/page "fuck it, every attribute priority gets, like, four more points," or do other folks kind of feel the same?

I agree. This is why the complaining that technomancers need every stat at 6 doesn't really hold any water. All characters start with low stats and god forbid I want to max my agility, body, str, reation, intuition with my samurai AND have a character with a silver tongue.

ok, so you remember how we covered the fact that a technomancer needs:

- high priority for attributes since each mental attribute is rather important
- high priority for technomancy since otherwise you can't be a technomancer
- high priority for skills to cover the full set of skills that a regular decker needs (two skill groups, or 8 skills), plus either another skill group or two more skills. all of which need to be at high values.

.................

so then... you tell me. what priority is going to skills that you expect them to have *any* room at all for heavy weapons which are unsuitable for general use? bearing in mind that even with priority A in attributes, the best they're going to be able to put into their mental attributes is a total of 16 points above baseline (so they could have 1/1/1/1/5/5/5/5, for example. of course, realistically, this individual will be useless in attacking others, useless in defending himself, and useless in any other sort of physical activity such as being stealthy or climbing a wall (both of which are examples of fairly common requirements in a shadowrun) unless you really max out the related skills as well.

or, maybe you could put attributes to B so you can put skills in A, and have only C for resonance. [sarcasm]i'm sure your 3 points of resonance and 1 complex form are going to make the average decker green with envy.[/sarcasm].

so then, maybe we put attributes to C, skills to A, and resonance to B? oh wait, now we only have *16* attributes to spread around. that's enough for 1/1/1/1/3/3/3/3 in the attribute line. yeah, i'm sure that decker, with only needing to max log and have a decent willpower for most tests (and being able to use augmentations to boost his lackluster physical stats and increase his log even further), is just *quaking* in his boots in terror that he might meet this guy in a dark (matrix) alley. plus, that still leaves us with only 2 complex forms. which isn't all that bad, really, since the most we can start off with given our trash stats is 3 anyways. also not that bad since most of the complex forms suck royally. too bad our fading resistance stat sucks unless we go human and dump edge. (elf isn't even an option if we want higher than 3 resonance from priorities).

3rdly, are the rules explicit that a living persona can not slave devices? I'm not sure to be honest but given that it works exactly like a deck and has a device rating like a deck and smells like a deck and quacks like a deck then oh I don't know, maybe they can slave devices like a deck too? If they definately can't and you think that's such a massive problem then why not just let them in your game?

but guess what if you never use them you still have as much utility as a decker.

3rdly, are the rules explicit that a living persona can not slave devices?

But all that aside you've given me an objective to try and build a functional Troll/ork Technomancer that I would play in a game when I get some time to burn.

What I'm seeing here is people wanting Trolls to be a cheap choice for Technomancers because 'trolls are less effective online' but quietly recieve all those durability and melee combat bonuses as just nice little freebies. Sorry, this is how 4th Ed worked with it's supposed excellent build points system where being an Ork or Troll was a no-brainer because it cost you almost no points to do it in the grand scheme of things. I'm not surprised people like it, it was hideously unbalanced!

Am I the only one that wants to scribble in the margins of my priority chart/page "fuck it, every attribute priority gets, like, four more points," or do other folks kind of feel the same?

Am I the only one that wants to scribble in the margins of my priority chart/page "fuck it, every attribute priority gets, like, four more points," or do other folks kind of feel the same?