What I've seen of them has been solidly persuasive and factual. Might be because I'm looking at the whole debate through our local set of laws, where males get the short end of the stick consistently, but still.

Funny, when I read this, I had to get up and look at my bookshelf to figure out the price of SR4A .. and it appears I must have given my non-limited copy away? Or maybe it's just hiding somewhere. Either way, $45 in 2009. $15 more for the next edition in 5 years, with a larger page count. That seems inline with other prices. Look at Numenera, or the $60 Emerald City Sourcebook for Mutants and Masterminds (which would have been even more had they released it in a boxed set like they wanted to!).

Seriously, this word does not mean what you think it means.

The people who held vocal MRA-like opinions or who identified as MRAs on our forums all fit into the "trolls, flamers, and bullies" category. Happy to give 'em the boot, don't want their money.

Then you haven't looked deeply enough. On the surface, cults and white supremacists might say some persuasive stuff, too.

Gods, no. They have a great opening line, but most of their "facts" are questionable internet news stories that are blown out of proportion, and their conclusions are just terrifying. Google "incel" for an example, "Elliot Rogers" for another.

Yep, or at least in R&G it's not so terribly obvious. Though I still loathe the fork gauss rifle.

Funny, when I read this, I had to get up and look at my bookshelf to figure out the price of SR4A .. and it appears I must have given my non-limited copy away? Or maybe it's just hiding somewhere. Either way, $45 in 2009. $15 more for the next edition in 5 years, with a larger page count. That seems inline with other prices. Look at Numenera, or the $60 Emerald City Sourcebook for Mutants and Masterminds (which would have been even more had they released it in a boxed set like they wanted to!).

Sure, but the production leap from SR4-era B&W hardcovers to SR5-era B&W hardcovers is a lot more major than "Transhuman was 40 more pages than we budgeted for originally" ;D

And on a completely unrelated note, I suggest reading the Humanis chapter in Loose Alliances (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

You're right; based on one of those factors alone changing, the price of a book likely wouldn't change. It's more likely that that lessened profit will be absorbed for a few books, and then the price will be raised on a future book. This is partially because constant small prices raises -- 44.99, 45.99, 46.99 -- are viewed as finicky for both the customer and retailer.

The price for the SR4-era core supplements was set in 2006/2007. That's eight years of raised costs to accommodate; inflation alone counts for over $5 by itself. Then add in color printing, color artwork, raised shipping costs, etc. and it's really easy to see how the cover price raises $15 (which the publisher only sees about a third of.)

I'm not debating the quality of the new books, because I have absolutely no idea what that quality is. They, individually, may well not be worth $50. But it's no surprise that that's the price; RPGs are a small press boutique item.

I think the outcry about the price is actually a little surprising; when we announced we were raising the price of Transhuman from 44.99 to 49.99 last year, not a single person -- fan or retailer -- complained. And with SR5 priced at $60, it was obvious what the core supplements would be priced at.

That post is inclusive of product value to the customer being something else than necessary street-price-per-unit for the producer. For what that is worth, I do not regret spending € 19,95 on the German version of SR5. I do believe this is BOTH a) a labor of love and b) part of a thought-out long-term strategy. A company has to make money in order to continue.

If my numbers are correct, that means the German book sells for US $27.20... less than half of the US book. Even allowing for a generous conversion factor, that doesn't make sense if the US book is properly priced. It seems to me that the US book *has* to be overpriced, in relation to other US RPG's and the German SR5 book.

It´s something like "the first is always free" I assume. Strategically only covering cost on the first book because of the assumption than many old fans will come back to the franchise if they can buy in cheap can be a valid strategy. It will also have driven up the conversion rate, enabling subsequent books to sell well. Pricing strategy is not binary.

All of this is probably true for the German edition, as it seems to have actually gotten extensive editorial and proofreading work applied before going to print.


The US version is a pure cash-grab on Catalyst's part. They knew the name would sell the core book, and didn't care if they never got any follow-on sales from new players because of the terrible quality of the core book. The dedicated players will keep buying in to get 5e versions of their old favorite toys, after all, even though literally every 5e release has had absurdly large proof and editorial problems.

I dunno about guaranteed sales. I haven't bought anything since I got the 5e core book. nothing I've heard has motivated me to want anything else.

there are a few basic ideas I like in 5th. I feel like it would be dramatically easier to port those ideas over to 4th than it would be to remove all the changes I didn't like, deal with all the unclear rulings, and convert ideas over.

It´s something like "the first is always free" I assume. Strategically only covering cost on the first book because of the assumption than many old fans will come back to the franchise if they can buy in cheap can be a valid strategy. It will also have driven up the conversion rate, enabling subsequent books to sell well. Pricing strategy is not binary.

All of this is probably true for the German edition, as it seems to have actually gotten extensive editorial and proofreading work applied before going to print.


The US version is a pure cash-grab on Catalyst's part. They knew the name would sell the core book, and didn't care if they never got any follow-on sales from new players because of the terrible quality of the core book. The dedicated players will keep buying in to get 5e versions of their old favorite toys, after all, even though literally every 5e release has had absurdly large proof and editorial problems.

I dunno about guaranteed sales. I haven't bought anything since I got the 5e core book. nothing I've heard has motivated me to want anything else.

there are a few basic ideas I like in 5th. I feel like it would be dramatically easier to port those ideas over to 4th than it would be to remove all the changes I didn't like, deal with all the unclear rulings, and convert ideas over.

The irony of using proofreader credits to obtain books wherein the proofreaders' corrections have been wantonly ignored is striking.

Possible. Wizards is releasing the started edition of the D&D 5e rules for free, under the same principle. They also released a starter edition *before* releasing the 5e core books, to drive up interest.

As if it's a realistic suggestion, to draw new blood into the market, seeing as how they have to compete with videogames.
Hell, even people with dozens of years of pnp experience are easily lost to that.

Well, think about it. You don't have to travel at all. There is zero setup. No whiny kids. No arguing over what type of pizza to buy.

Interaction is 100% on your terms. You can leave it and pick it right up where you left off at pretty much any time.

I would love to game on a weekly basis but all the players around me have panic attacks trying to squeeze in one "maybe" game a month and think that they're "going the extra mile" to "game regularly".

I'm just pissed that the videogamers stole the term "Gamer" from us RPG and board game geeks. I furthermore find it completely ridiculous that an industry that takes in more money than Hollywood can be seen as anything other than as mainstream as Top 40 pop bullshit.

Absolutely. And they call it "having a life".

That smacks of elitism, doesn't it. Gaming became mainstream, there's nothing bad about it.
The only problem is that pnp gaming didn't, and likely will never.

As if it's a realistic suggestion, to draw new blood into the market, seeing as how they have to compete with videogames.
Hell, even people with dozens of years of pnp experience are easily lost to that.

If my numbers are correct, that means the German book sells for US $27.20... less than half of the US book. Even allowing for a generous conversion factor, that doesn't make sense if the US book is properly priced. It seems to me that the US book *has* to be overpriced, in relation to other US RPG's and the German SR5 book.

Yeah, that's something I've been seeing too. Board games are a lot easier to get people to take time for than tabletop RPGS. Even the ones that are essentially identical to RPGs, like Arkham Horror.