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Wakshaani
post Aug 22 2014, 08:48 PM
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Well, Jason's always keeping an eye out for writers. More than one freelancer started out on DUmpshock. Just sayin'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Aug 22 2014, 09:41 PM
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QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Aug 22 2014, 02:48 PM) *
Well, Jason's always keeping an eye out for writers. More than one freelancer started out on DUmpshock. Just sayin'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


Sadly, I am not THAT good of a writer to pursue it professionally (even part time). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Though I am mighty proud of my gaming group campaign guides - even if I purloin ideas from all over the place. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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SpellBinder
post Aug 22 2014, 09:51 PM
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QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Aug 22 2014, 07:45 AM) *
Several places. Teh Nano-pocalypse has several buildings collapsing as teh nanites that were in them since they were constructed woke up and went all termite, for example, and mention of assorted nanite-built things falling apart follows a similar path.

I'd have to go book-delving to find mention of it in earlier books, but it was there if you poked around a bit. I don't know WHY, but.
And it's also quite possible that at the prelude of the nano-pocalypse that these nanite built things were built very shoddily and it was never caught by metahuman inspection. It'd be like building a house, and not using a single nail. Eventually it's gonna fall apart.

The only other things I can think of that closer match your "nanites carried with" theory are things that would have some kind of nano maintenance system built into them. That could work, assuming that the nanite built buildings all used nanites for maintenance beyond being built.
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Sengir
post Aug 23 2014, 12:20 AM
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QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Aug 22 2014, 02:07 AM) *
In Shadowrun, the nanites go with the product.

No, they don't. "Nanites combine the materials present and mold the structure per the nanohive’s commands" (Augmentation, p. 101) or etch optical circuits, but at no point does it say the nanites include themselves into the structure. In fact, a major selling point of nano-construction is that items can be "grown" as single homogenous pieces without seams and fracture points (Augmentation, p. 99), which certainly would not work with nanites as defects in the lattice.

Already infected nanoforges attaching live nanites to stuff they produce would make sense, but retconning live nanites into everything produced does not.

QUOTE
including reprograming them to make more of themselves (possibly using the building for raw materials, killing two bird with one stone!)

Previous books were VERY cautious to point out that effective self-replication is off the books. Apart from increasing every problem the existence of universal constructors/deconstructors causes for the setting a few bazillion-fold, replicating entities evolve. A tiny sample of some nanoweapon is released somewhere? Well, they won't stay a tiny number for long, and unless you raze all of them, you only applied some evolutionary pressure to the survivors...
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Fatum
post Aug 23 2014, 02:29 AM
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QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Aug 22 2014, 04:07 AM) *
In Shadowrun, the nanites go with the product. This allows nano-materials to be rebuilt post-deployment, and gives rise to the "Nano-pocalypse", where someone can hijack the nanites in your building and make them go all cartoon termite, including reprograming them to make more of themselves (possibly using the building for raw materials, killing two bird with one stone!)
I am not so sure about previous editions, I could've easily missed something, but this is absolutely not how I remember the things described in Augmentation. More than just that, describing them this way goes against the concept of nano equipment, invalidates the existence of the Nano Hive implant, etc.
This is why the 5e nanopocalypse was (and still is, I guess) perceived as one more drop in the sea of utter brilliance that the late Fourth and Fifth fluff is.
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Wakshaani
post Aug 23 2014, 04:26 AM
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QUOTE (Fatum @ Aug 22 2014, 08:29 PM) *
I am not so sure about previous editions, I could've easily missed something, but this is absolutely not how I remember the things described in Augmentation. More than just that, describing them this way goes against the concept of nano equipment, invalidates the existence of the Nano Hive implant, etc.
This is why the 5e nanopocalypse was (and still is, I guess) perceived as one more drop in the sea of utter brilliance that the late Fourth and Fifth fluff is.

Be a couple fo days before I can do full research. but take a look at nanotatoos, for example.
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Sengir
post Aug 23 2014, 04:13 PM
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QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Aug 23 2014, 06:26 AM) *
Be a couple fo days before I can do full research. but take a look at nanotatoos, for example.

Nanotats are a regular transient nanoware system, which degrades without a nanohive (or from the host taking damage).
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SpellBinder
post Aug 23 2014, 04:44 PM
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Nanotattoos are also designed to be programmable, within artistic limits. It's not so simple to take nanotattoos and reprogram them to function as cutters.
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Sengir
post Aug 23 2014, 05:53 PM
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QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Aug 23 2014, 06:44 PM) *
Nanotattoos are also designed to be programmable, within artistic limits. It's not so simple to take nanotattoos and reprogram them to function as cutters.

It actually is, which is one of my major problems with SR nanites...but the point remains, nanotattoos work differently than say a nanoforged AK
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Wakshaani
post Aug 23 2014, 06:56 PM
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QUOTE (Sengir @ Aug 23 2014, 11:53 AM) *
It actually is, which is one of my major problems with SR nanites...but the point remains, nanotattoos work differently than say a nanoforged AK


Right. So, hopefully, in theory, we can sit down, use the "reset button", and tackle nano-thingies from a unified front in the future. Keep them around for industrial use, both light and heavy, but back away from the reprogramable, do-anything type of onboard machines. I'd like to see the Nanohive kicked to the curb, for instance, and a tad more focus on nanites as just "Thing sthat build things" ... keep it simple and maybe expand in the future, taking a few steps back from transhumanism. I figure that we can leave that kind of thing to the Eclipse Phase guys and everyone'll wind up happier for it.

Well, mostly everyone. I'm sure that there're a couple of nano-fans around here that would love to see them massively expanded and whatnot, but, it's just not where I'd like to *personally* go with it at this time. Going all Generator Rex is *neat*, but it doesn't fit the Shadowrun in my head. YMMV and all that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Fatum
post Aug 23 2014, 08:30 PM
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I have no issue with nanites whatsoever, as long as they stay within the bounds of reasonable.
Nanoforges? Sure, just don't claim that one day whatever was made by one can be undone simply for the nanoforge being reprogrammed (as 5e did).
Nanites as implants or equipment? As long as they're not universally reprogrammable and omnipotent, why not? Just keep the possible usages reasonable. Nanotats are a perfect example; nanites used as armour (like Altskin in Augmentation) is already stretching it a bit.
But with the kind of fluff we're getting in Core or Stolen Souls, I just can't see how the whole nanotechnology field can possibly end up anywhere good.
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Wakshaani
post Aug 23 2014, 08:58 PM
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Yeah, nano-forged needs to just mean "built by nanites" and left at that. Otherwise, you get the weird effect of "The swordsmith's hammer broke and, in so doing, every blade he made with it snapped." ... which is just SILLY.
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Fatum
post Aug 24 2014, 12:39 AM
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Too late for that, isn't it? Unless you're given the power to retcon things left and right...
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Wakshaani
post Aug 24 2014, 04:13 AM
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QUOTE (Fatum @ Aug 23 2014, 06:39 PM) *
Too late for that, isn't it? Unless you're given the power to retcon things left and right...


Well, the Nanopocalypse happened and all things nano got shelved while Top Men looked at them and went, "Okay, why did this happen and how can we stop it from happening again?"

Much like the new Matrix was rolled out, so too can a new generation of Nanotech be released with Safeguards ™.
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Fatum
post Aug 24 2014, 04:17 AM
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Shelved? "All of the nano-fabricated AK–174s melted to slag", I thought.
As for a new generation after the whole world-wide epidemic, this is about as likely as a megacorp trying to bring insect spirits under its control after Chicago. Completely ridiculous. Absolutely no chance. Oh wait...
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Wakshaani
post Aug 24 2014, 09:39 AM
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QUOTE (Fatum @ Aug 23 2014, 11:17 PM) *
Shelved? "All of the nano-fabricated AK–174s melted to slag", I thought.
As for a new generation after the whole world-wide epidemic, this is about as likely as a megacorp trying to bring insect spirits under its control after Chicago. Completely ridiculous. Absolutely no chance. Oh wait...


Shelved, yeah.

"Hey boss? You know that new line of Nanobikini we were working on?"
"Of course. High profit margins."
"Well, everything nano justs tarted melting. What do you want us to do?"
"Cancel the line. Cancel *all* nano-projects until we figure out what the Hell just happened."
"Even the nano-icecream?"
"ESPECIALLY the nano-icecream."

IE, things already nano-related melted, so everything *planned* to be rolled out with nano-tech got shelved. Nobody wants to touch the stuff until they know it's safe.
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Nath
post Aug 24 2014, 10:54 AM
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Only if you conveniently ignore about everything the existing fluff was saying about nanotechnology.
QUOTE
Man & Machine, page 83-85
HUMANITY - CAUGHT IN THE GEARS
Nanotech is the key that allows flesh and machine to communicate. Without nanotechnology , all but the most basic cyberware would be so large and bulky that it would defeat its purpose - and, in many cases, would cost more Essence than a being could spar. It is the nanites' task to continually maintain the body's neural system so that impulses of flash and metal do not get rejected by each other. Nanites constantly maintain the neural highways to allow the electrical signals to pass between the body and its cyberware with no delay or impulse rejection, allowing street samurai to move in the blink of an eye, deckers to deck, riggers to rig and so on.
Nanites also control the microscopic circuits that form the retinal displays of cybereyes, weave and reweave the fibers of synthetic polymers used in dermal sheating and are used in nearly every kind of modern surgery.
Outside the body, nanites act as SOTA sensors and controllers in high-temperature engines and as stress sensors and actuators in airframes - and in most if not all, spacecraft and space stations. Modern bearings are polished by nanites to such a degree that if the bearing were earth-sized, the largest imperfection would be smaller than Mt. Everest.
Monofilament is also a product of nanotechnology. Originally intended to ancho ultra-heavy loads when woven into cables, it has instead become best known for the ultra-deadly monowhip.

Human Augmentation and Medecine
The primary value of nanotechnology - from a human perspective - lies in the its application in the medical and para-medical fields. Nanotchnology is the "silent wonder" of the cybernetics and bionics industries and has long been a staple of cyberware installation and implantation procedures. Without nanotechnology, invasive cyberware such as bone lacing, skillwires, dermal platting and even wired reflexes could neve be attempted. And without the fine manipulation of the nanites, even installation of a simple datajack would be impossible. Because of this, the main focus of nanotechnology before Deus was in the medical field.
In the early stages of the cybernetics industry, genetically engineered bacteria, misleadingly nicknamed "nanites," lais the neural bridges during the cybersystem implantation. This "old-world" nanite was responsible for the first implants, and its imprecision limited cyberware to a comparatively basic level and caused significant Essence loss even for the very small implanted devices. The advent of true nanites rendered such clumsy tools unnecessary. True nanites are more precise and versatile, allowing larger devices, including limbs, to be implanted without such a loss of Essence that the body would shut down.
Cybernetics' reliance on nanotechnology is twofold: nanotech is used for implantation of stand-alone items of cyberware, and for producing the desired effects of other items. Nanotechnology is an absolute necessity for all cybernetic surgery, especially for the installation of bone lacing, balance augmentors, retinal duplication, orthoskin and dermal sheating. Nanotech connects all cyberware to the neural pathways that go to the brain. In addition, nanites are directly integrated into many cyberware devices, including cybereyes accessories, filtration systems and chemical immunity and chemical analysis tools.
In the synthetic skin of a cyberarm, there are microscopic pressure, head and cold sensors and monofilament-sized wires that detect cuts and abrasions and transmit "real" pain. In the ultra-high precision world of small mechanics, such as is found in cybernetic muscle replacements, nanomachines form a matrix of invisible motors that mimic natural muscle and provide machine-like strength.
QUOTE
Augmentation, page 96
Nanotechnology is a subtle and pervasive part of the modern world. The nanotechnological revolution has discreetly changed the face of the world and few aspects of our lives remain untouched by some form of nanotech, more so than the average person realizes. More than an enabling technology, it is almost as prevalent as wireless networking. Fields such as cybernetics, aeronautics, smart materials, space exploration and many more would still be in the dark ages without breakthroughs engineered by nanomachines.
The fruits of nanotechnology are omnipresent, but rarely trumpet their origins. Nanotechnology is essential to many things the average person takes for granted from the super-compact optical storage to filtration systems to the humble RFID chip. Those dirt-repelling surfaces on your clothing, furniture, and office building are a product of nanotechnology. Desktop nanoforges are changing the way small industries everywhere operate, and odds are that pretty much any sophisticated gadget you own has nanotech-produced components. Your commlink wouldn’t exist without the nanotech needed to produce the photovoltaic protein pigment in optical chips or etch millions of logic gates in its processor. Nanite sensors act as controllers in high-temperature engines and as stress sensors and actuators in airframes—and in most, if not all, spacecraft and space stations. Monofilament and buckytubes are found in a bewildering number of applications from armor to monowhips.
Even though the role of nanotechnology in manufacturing is impressive, some of the most exciting applications are in the fields of human (and metahuman) enhancement. Without nanoscale engineering and nanites to continually maintain the bridges to the body’s own neural system, cybernetics would be far more invasive. Nanites also control the microscopic circuits that form the retinal displays of cybereyes, weave and reweave the fibers of synthetic polymers used in dermal sheathing, and are used in nearly every kind of modern surgery.

Augmentation, page 103
Nanotechnology is the silent wonder of the cybernetics and biotech industries, and has long been a staple of surgical installation and implantation procedures. Nanotechnology is an absolute necessity for all implant surgery, particularly for the installation of so-called “headware”—neuro-cybernetic interfaces—and pretty much any invasive augmentation be it cybernetic skill-wires and dermal plating or a biotech adrenal pump. Not only is nanotech used for implantation of stand-alone items of cyberware, but it is integral to the functioning of many others including cybereye accessories, filtration systems, chemical analysis tools, and even cyberlimb sensory feedback systems (various nano-sensors are laced into the outer “skin” of a cyberarm; microscopic pressure, heat, and cold sensors and monofilament-sized wires that detect cuts and abrasions and transmit “real” pain).
Let's face it, consistency and plausibility took a backseat to the will to remove from Shadowrun every elements that could possibly be associated with the words "transhumanism," "posthumanism" and "Peter Taylor" (even when a lot of it was mostly up to Michael Mulvihill and Rob Boyle). Someone wanted the nanoforges out of the game, and cobbled a plot to justify it. Not the other way round.
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Sengir
post Aug 24 2014, 09:24 PM
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QUOTE (Fatum @ Aug 23 2014, 10:30 PM) *
Nanites as implants or equipment? As long as they're not universally reprogrammable and omnipotent, why not?

Well, that already means nanites can (and shall) survive outside specialized environments. I'd much prefer them to stay inside cleanrooms...
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Fatum
post Aug 25 2014, 03:10 AM
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Why? What's the issue, invisible robots ruining your day? That can be simply fixed by ruling that nanites have to establish at least a Signal 1 open connection at all times to maintain cohesion. That way, you can just detect them as any other wireless node.
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binarywraith
post Aug 25 2014, 11:50 PM
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QUOTE (Fatum @ Aug 24 2014, 10:10 PM) *
Why? What's the issue, invisible robots ruining your day? That can be simply fixed by ruling that nanites have to establish at least a Signal 1 open connection at all times to maintain cohesion. That way, you can just detect them as any other wireless node.


Again, read some classic sci-fi. Grey Goo situations are no laughing matter.
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Fatum
post Aug 26 2014, 01:18 AM
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QUOTE (Fatum @ Aug 24 2014, 12:30 AM) *
As long as they're not universally reprogrammable and omnipotent, why not?
Grey Goo runs against at least one of these.
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Sengir
post Aug 26 2014, 11:58 AM
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QUOTE (Fatum @ Aug 25 2014, 05:10 AM) *
Why?

Because I hate the idea of spray-on TVs. If we need to have nanobots (my preferred solution would be "kill all hard nanites"), they should be restricted to behind-the-scenes manufacturing and surgery.
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Fatum
post Aug 26 2014, 11:28 PM
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This seems irrational to me, given that your AR equipment can show you a TV screen ARO wherever needed, overlaying it neatly over whatever surface happens to be there if need be.
Yeah, you might get the same result by spraying nanites onto the surface. How is that a big deal? I can see how Surtr or carcerands are, given that they're hard to detect and harder still to purge or safeguard yourself against; but the ruling suggested above solves this neatly.
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Sengir
post Aug 29 2014, 03:17 PM
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QUOTE (Fatum @ Aug 27 2014, 01:28 AM) *
Yeah, you might get the same result by spraying nanites onto the surface. How is that a big deal?

Tiny nanobots assembling complex electronics in a matter of turns in just about any environment, and available for chump change. Hmm, how could that have any effect on the setting...
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Fatum
post Aug 29 2014, 09:31 PM
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Given that these nanites cost times more than a factory-produced electronic device of the same functionality, I don't really see how, no.
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