What a giant mess. There's no clear RAW, so you have to define house rules imo.

For instance, no one seems to have noticed this beauty yet:
That's right, one Free Action during each Action Phase (not during each of HIS action phases).

However, the next sentence adds weight to free actions being only taken after you acted:

The sentence on p.163 had me thinking that Free Actions are taken any time (cause that's what that sentence is saying...) but now I'm not so sure that's RAI. I'd say just decide what you think makes most sense for your game, Lobo.

And about delaying, we're doing it correctly as far as I can tell, except for the part where it should incur a -1 penalty (easy to miss, it's lost in the middle of the section).

About astrally perceiving, I just wasn't thinking about that tbh. If there's a penalty to it, she probably would have dropped it (your call though, because I haven't said a thing), otherwise she would probably still be perceiving the astral.

Part of the problem is the writers have a terrible problem with sticking to terminology. I think the RAI is:
Combat Turn: A three second period comprising multiple Initiative Passes.
Initiative Pass: A sequence of PC and NPC Action Phases.
Action Phase: The period in which a character can perform and execute a certain combination of actions (One Complex or Two Simple, plus a Free Action then or later).

The main thing with the delaying thing for us to remember is that you can only delay your Action Phase, not individual actions within the Action Phase. So, like with Grease, if he moved and took cover (requiring one simple action), he can't delay his last simple action for later in the Initiative Pass.

There's a -2 penalty to "actions on the physical plane" when astrally perceiving. It takes a Simple Action to switch back and forth, but I think you had one you never took in an earlier CT or IP that you could use to switch back.

For the future, here's a handy list of Simple Actions in case we're in a situation where we don't want to waste actions:

Activate Focus
Call Sprite
Call Spirit
Change Device Mode
Change Gun Mode
Change Icon
Command Spirit
Command Sprite
Control Device
Dismiss Spirit
Dismiss Sprite
Fire Bow
Fire Semi-Auto, Single-Shot, Burst Fire, or Full-Auto
Insert Clip
Invite MARK
Jack Out
Observe in Detail
Pick Up/Put Down Object
Quick Draw
Ready Weapon
Reckless Spellcasting
Remove Clip
Send Message
Shift Perception
Stand Up
Switch Interface Mode
Take Aim
Take Cover
Throw Weapon
Use Simple Device

There are probably a few others that I missed, but that should provide some ideas for the future.

Ok, so here is my take on it - and the way I think we should play it.

You have an Action Phase which can be taken at your Initiative Score. This Action Phase consists of Movement and either 2 simple or 1 complex action.

You can choose to delay your Action Phase until later in the Initiative Pass. Once you begin your Action Phase in any way, you have to use all of it, or forfeit what you don't use.

In addition, you have one free action per Initiative Pass, which can occur starting with your Initiative Score and is separate from your Action Phase.

Finally, if you would like, you can choose to use one (or both) of your simple actions to perform one or two free actions.

Example.

Amy rolls a 23.
Jack rolls a 15

IP 1
Amy 23
Jack 15

Amy can choose to take her Free Action at 23, or wait until later. At most, she could wait until 14 (i.e. after all other players in the round have gone.)
Amy can choose to take her Action Phase at 23, or wait until later. At most, she could wait until 14 (i.e. after all other players in the round have gone.)

Jack cannot do ANYTHING until 15, and then can do his free action and Action Phase. He could choose to wait until Amy goes as well, but at that point, you'd have to break the tie to see who goes first.

As far as Astrally Perceiving, I think that given that it is a -2 penalty to actions on the physical plane - and I did not assess a penalty to either of the two spells you cast, lets assume you've stopped.

I'll try and get the next IC post up in a little bit.

That all makes sense, assuming you can still take an interrupt action at any time if you're not surprised and have the initiative to pay for it. I know it wasn't one of the things we really discussed much, but I just wanted to make sure that was in there in case the question came up later.

For clarification, we are or are not playing with the -1 Delaying Penalty?

I suppose to reduce the number of house rules, we'll keep the -1 Delaying Penalty.

Yes, interrupt actions are a separate thing (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Thanks Lobo.

I'm having a bit of trouble imagining the scene. From what I understand, Jack is crouching in a hallway with a doorway leading into a bedroom containing Lynx and Falcon, using the doorway/wall as cover. Grease, Overkill, and Amy are in a large open room behind Jack, firing/slinging spells into the bedroom?

This is probably a terrible ASCI version, but is this roughly correct?

Now that I know that Amy isn't Astrally Perceiving, I can add the last part of the equation (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Falcon on his last action had summoned another spirit to his side, but it was still in the Astral, so the only person who could have seen it was Amy.

Spirit of Earth 16 - Manifests
Spirit of Air 15 - attacks Earth Spirit
Lynx 14
Amy 13
Overkill 6
Falcon 5
Jack 3
Grease 5 (-10 for full defense)=-5, so no action this turn.

Spirit of Air attacks Spirit of Earth
15d6.hits(5)=6

Spirit of Earth Dodges
13d6.hits(5)=7

Lynx Aims and returns fire at Overkill
Same as before, +1 die +1 Accuracy for the Aim
16d6.hits(5)=7

Overkill Dodges - also taking full defense
Reaction 6, Intuition 3, Cover+4, Semi auto burst -2, Full Defense +3
14d6.hits(5)=5

Hmm - so he would be resisting 11DV - probably worth it to Edge just to be on the safe side.

9d6.hits(5)=1

DOH!

Ok, so he has to resist 8DV base +1 for ammo +1 for net hits, so 10 DV

Armor Jacket is 12, down to 10 from AP, +3 for body
13d6.hits(5)=6

Well, that was a good roll at least. So Overkill takes 4 boxes of physical damage.

Now it is Amy's turn.

ETA, it occurs to me that Overkill can not have actually taken full defense, since he did not have at least 10 initiative points. He could, however, have taken a Dodge Interrupt, resulting in rolling 1 less die, but that does not alter the results.

Sort of - I've put a picture in the drop box.

Um... just thought of this. If Lynx is shooting a SA Burst, that requires a Complex Action, so he can't be Taking Aim at the same time. He'd also (possibly) be suffering from progressive recoil on that second shot.

Thanks for the pic, I was way off. I was under the impression the door to the bedroom we had opened was right next to the door to exit the apartment. Makes a lot more sense now!

Also: they issued errata on the Shadow Block maneuver for R&G to, from all appearances, clarify that Dodge is unavailable for use against Ranged Attacks, which kind of lines up with the ranged defenses listed on p. 188

My apologies if this was a house rule we had already discussed.

ETA: Also, sorry, one more edit, I think the Materializing spirit loses 1d6+1 initiative when it materializes on 16, in case that wasn't included.

It wasn't something we discussed - thanks for bringing it up - I forgot about that!

Also, forgot SA burst is a complex action - lets see if it matters.

Lynx has 3 points of recoil comp, which means he would take a penalty of 3 dice on his second shot, AND lose one die since he couldn't aim.

Overkill, on the other hand would be rolling 3 less dice (since he can't do full defense.)

Looking at the dice rolls, Lynx losing 4 dice reduces his successes by 1, and Overkill losing 3 dice reduces his successes by 2, meaning he takes one more point of damage.

Please never be afraid to bring up rules that I missed - it is always harder to GM when you are doing it with lots of time in between things lol.

ETA - Believe it or not, I actually DID remember to make it lose the initiative. I rolled very well on the 3d6 when I rolled for its astral initiative, and rolled a 2 on the d6 it lost when it manifested.

No problem, it's so complicated with the rules all over the place. For instance, if Overkill did just take another box of damage (total of 6), he's also knocked down and will have to pass a composure check to stand back up (BOD + WIL - WM) [2].

Oops, disregard, I think he only took 5 with the change and you have to exceed the limit.

I'm wondering if Grease is thinking about calling for an abort yet. While we do have one of their guys down, we have two opponents plus an almost certainly powerful enemy spirit. Our decker is wounded and we've now had six rounds of un-silenced gunfire popped off, probably waking up at least the adjacent apartments. The CS grenade was apparently a bust, likely doing us more harm than good. I think Amy and Jack are going to have to save here in a few and Grease and Overkill at the end of the following CT. I'm not even sure if Falcon and Lynx are considered to have been exposed to it yet. Two characters have 0 Edge... and security is probably en route, possibly calling for backup.

Sorry guys, bad plan on my part!

I'll be checking periodically today. Lobo, did the shot knock overkill over?

Since I'm out of initiative I don't have a lot to add at the moment.

One other thing; this may just be too complex, but does the cs grenade effect visibility at all? I know I always forget that stuff when I'm GMing.

As an aside, thank you lobo for saying you're alright with us asking rules questions. This is a lot tougher to do remotely and over a long period of time, so I'm glad you're avoiding gm fiat and instead are answering our rude questions about how "well did you remember THIS?"

@Jack: fight to the last man! I am missing rhex here. It seemed impractical to bring the rotodrone in, but maybe I'm imagining it as larger than it is.

DrZ

I appreciate it too. There's a lot that is probably missed in tabletop gaming. With this format, given that we usually have to wait on one another to post, I do kind of think it's nice we can all scrutinize the action phases. I like to think it will help us out whenever we GM. On top of that, I see this as a really tough fight, so I'm scraping for every advantage we can get, LOL!

I don't think Overkill would be knocked over. The shot DV would have equaled his physical limit of 5, so he should still be standing.

I don't think CS grenades cause vision penalties. IRL, they might, at least from my recollections of the "confidence" chamber.

@DrZ: Yeah, I was planning on going down with the ship. If nothing else, hopefully Ramirez will be able to send a team and mop up if we go down. We probably should send him a message with this address as a just-in-case letting him know we're engaged (in case anyone has a simple action handy, LOL). Also, drone sizes are completely screwed up. For roto-drones, I prefer the more-svelte drones that are on the cover of the 5th Edition book or the ones that are inside the original 4th Edition book. The trash can ones were stupid looking.

Arg that damn spirit isn't doing what I told it to! (and I was warned about that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )

Ok I was imagining Amy following Jack more closely, and ending up next to him, but on the other side of the doorway, not several steps back, but I don't really mind too much.

Like everyone, I also like how we put a lot of attention on the rules and we're taking the time to figure it out alongside the GM.

Next, Amy will cast Mass Confusion F5 in the room where it can be within range of both enemies (and possibly the spirits too), hopefully they don't fully resist and their dice pools for attack and defense go down. 14 dice to cast, 13 to resist 4S drain. If there's no spot to get both Falcon and Lynx within range, she'll opt for a Clout spell instead.

I skimmed through the dodging rules and couldn't find what effect it has on defense rolls when the defender can't see the ranged attacker -- there's only stuff about surprises. In my mind, there's just no way to dodge a bullet if you don't see the gun and/or the guy holding the gun -- by the time your hear the gunshot, it's too late. I'm curious about how you want to deal with this Lobo, and if there's indeed a rule on this that I just missed.

ETA: Also scratch those actions if Amy goes beserk. It would be much more aggressive and dangerous for herself. She needs to make a Cha+Wil(3) test or go berserk because Overkill took damage.

ETA2: Didn't realise the area would be so large (I was thinking 5(force) or 6(magic) meter radius for some reason). The gain is much more modest overall, considering she'll also take a -2 to her own rolls for sustaining. She'll probably cast Clout instead, and the force of the spell will depend on being berserk or not. 6 if not, 8 or 9 if she is berserk, not caring on the effects on her own safety, just wanting to bring the opponents down as quickly and recklessly as possible.

I think it's basically covered by Defender Unaware of Attack modifier on p. 187 and they don't actually get to dodge. With that said, it doesn't apply if they're already engaged in combat based on the presumption that they're moving around enough trying to avoid attacks they are aware of that they might just move when you attack them, even unwittingly. Instead, the entry directs you to give the attacker the +2 dice pool Superior Position bonus.

P.S. I don't think you should change it, but that spell is going to have a pretty large area (25m radius), possibly hitting all of us (you're unaffected though). At least, the way that I understand AoE mana spells to work.

That seems like a very small gain for the huge advantage it should provide imo, but at least the rules cover it.

I'm going to guess it's largely a balance issue considering the relative ease of acquiring the ability to be invisible.

Although that does give me an idea for an Aspected Sorcerer Assassin with just Improved Invisibility and Focused Concentration.

P.S. I'm heading out in a few minutes to hang out with some friends and watch some football. Probably won't be back until late tonight. I think I posted my actions a few pages ago, assuming I'm still alive.

Ok - to sum up some questions:

1) Tear gas has no effect on visibility, except for the 8 DV and Nausea and Disorientation effects (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

2) Overkill has a physical limit of 5, and would need to take 6 points of damage to be knocked over, and he only took 5.

3) The area of the spell is Force in Meters, so a force 5 spell would only be a 10 meter diameter area. Still, would definitely catch Falcon, Lynx, and Jack, but not Overkill and Grease. Mana based Illusions do not affect Assensing beings, and since the spirits are dual natured, I'm don't think they would be affected anyway. (I'm not sure on that, but as you've modified it such that you aren't casting it, it is moot (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )

4) Going beserk

13d6.hits(5)=6

Amy easily maintains her calm.

5) So you know, given Amy's position she can only see Lynx, so to be clear, since you did not go berserk, you are going to cast Clout Force 6 at Lynx, correct?

ETA - I have Jack's action as:

"Oh, if my turn comes up, I'm taking aim and 3 round bursting Falcon as planned (if he's still conscious, otherwise Lynx, in which case I'm not taking aim and just doing a 6 round burst). S&S is loaded. "

ETTA

6) Falcon and Lynx and Gutter will be exposed to the gas one turn later than you guys. It also brings up something else you may not have thought of. With Gutter unconscious from the spirit's engulf attack, as he becomes exposed he is going to start taking physical damage. Depending on how long it takes you to resolve the combat, he may actually die from exposure to the CS gas. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

Somehow this is not a pressing concern for my character right now (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Seeing Overkill take a heavy hit, she can't prevent herself from yelling "Nooo, stay back!"

So now that I understand what range she can get from her spell, it would actually make sense to cast Mass Confusion at a lower level and only get the ones she want within the area of effect, however spending reagents to boost the limit. Would that work? The mana spell would still affect Falcon though, because he's a dual being (or just physical, I dunno), right?

Ok - I went back and reread it.

It says :

"Though mana-based illusions can be created on the astral plane, their magical auras give them away as illusions to anyone who makes a successful Assensing Test—illusions can’t fool Assensing and cannot be used to disguise or create auras."

So scratch what I said, it seems like it only applies if you created it on the astral plane, and then only if they made an Assensing test. (To be honest, I'm not sure why it wouldn't apply if you made an Assensing test on the physical plane either - but that's what it says.)

The only problem is that things being what they are, and where you can see, any radius big enough to get Falcon is also going to get Jack. Are you still okay casting it?

Sorry about the confusion over AoE spells, I even looked at the passage in the book before typing and somehow misread it. <Sigh>

The issue with Falcon is that you can't see him. You have to have LoS on him, but the wall is in the way. Lobo dropped a drawing of the apartment in the Dropbox.

I think it is super stupid that CS can kill someone, but whatever. BTW, in the book, the entry for Gas Grenades says that the cloud only lasts 4CTs, so I don't think he's going to die unless you're extending it for being in a particularly confined space. It does somewhat contradict the CS entry, so who knows.

ETA: I had this argument with my old GM in the Africa game. The entry says they have to assense it and the table says to determine the type of spell requires a test, which takes an action. Good luck figuring that one out.

Yes, that is true as well - sorry, I should have remembered that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)



Oh I don't think it is LIKELY it will kill him. He is going to take 32 boxes of damage over the next 4 turns. Now, that is resisted by him, and then any leftover damage converts from stun to physical at a 2 to 1 ratio. So, unless he rolls TERRIBLY I don't think it is an issue, but I figured I would mention the possibility.



Ok - rereading it again, here's my thought. If you create a mana illusion of a car, someone actually has to make an Assensing test successfully to see that it is a spell. If you create an illusion of a human, then all someone has to do is say "I'm assensing him" and he automatically succeeds with no die roll necessary, since the spell cannot generate an aura, which any metahuman should have. Does that sound like it makes sense?

Yes.

Just to clarify, I need to see the center of the area spell, or I need to see the people who will be affected? My understanding is the former (otherwise I could choose my targets since I can control my line of sight artificially...) and again I can't find an explanation in the book. I see what it says for LOS range, but for Area is doesn't seem to talk about how the targeting works.

In any case I won't cast it if it catches Jack, and I'll revert to my second idea of just casting Clout F6 on Lynx (sorry for the incessant back and forth!)

You have to see both.

As a GM, I don't think I'd allow someone to cheese it by saying they were going to hold their hand up in the air to block out sight of an ally. Too much to figure out as far as what gets blocked, etc. For instance, in our current situation, if you tried to hold up a hand and block out Jack, you probably wouldn't be able to see Lynx either.

It's kind of implied that Indirect AoE spells don't operate this way. Rather, you fire at a point in space that you have to have line of effect to, and then the effect happens from that point outward. They may have clarified that better in Street Grimoire, I'm not sure.

As Jack pointed out, it is back on page 282, and not in the actual spell descriptions (which is why I forgot about it too). I do agree that Indirect Combat spells should be exempt. I went back and looked at 3rd edition, and in that, it worked the same way, if you cast an area effect spell into a room, it didn't affect anyone you couldn't see. In 3rd edition, Indirect Combat spells were classified as "Damaging Manipulation Spells" - like Fireball and Toxic Wave, etc, and with those you simply had to see the spot you were casting at, and everyone within the radius would be affected.

Now, for the Force 6 Clout:

12d6.hits(5)=2

Edge?