Not being active there myself, what is traffic on the official forums like?

I think the Aetherology & London Calling topic is a great example of why I don't come to Dumpshock that often or comment that much. Every topic is the same shit. "CGL sucks", "5th ed sucks, this seemingly irrelevant circumstantial evidence proves it", "everything is so poorly edited its unplayable", "blah blah blah"

People don't even talk about the damn content or world anymore, it's just a place to vent how much you don't like Shadowrun now and why you don't buy pdfs/books.

Is it that bad? I will have to look at it again. I caught its initial posting, but there were not that many posts in it.

Thing is, SR5's rules and setting are honestly broken enough that the house rules that get proposed generally have undesired consequences at other points, usually because of a rule hidden in a text block somewhere the author happened to miss because it isn't called out somewhere else. There are few equitable fixes because the whole system is off-balanced. This is pretty notable since nearly all the house rules sets we've had up here for discussion have involved gutting major aspects of the game design, especially the (in my opinion, vastly poorly designed) wireless rules.



What's to say? Books aren't out yet, so we can't comment on the content, and Edit : Guess they are. The editing has continued to be shaky at best throughout everything released for SR5 so far. It is really, really hard to expect people to get hyped up and excited over a product when the last half-dozen releases have all had the same major editing issues. The last major rules release was the Shadow Spells back in September, we have no ETA on anything else coming out. I think a number of us have settled in to play SR3 or SR20A and wait to see what SR5.5 will look like when they inevitably give it a full rewrite, because everything released that is based on the premises set out in SR5 is going to carry on its flaws until they give up and fix the core book.

Heck, even Missions has only managed to put out what, 3 runs in Season 5 since September 2013.

That is what I consider to be the big change: People on DS do not really bother with new releases, at all. A bit of bickering (and seriously, it wasn't more than that) on "eternal" topics like balance, editing, stupid names, overrepresentation of X, etc. were always part of the talk, but for the most part the discussion was about the product. Nowadays, the "meta" discussion is still there, but the product itself does not seem to be worth talking about anymore -- the R&G thread got to an anemic 16 pages, SG just made 6...

I can't speak for others, but for me the reason in one word is Apathy. I used to be interested in 5th when it first came out, these days I really can't muster any excitement for it. positive or negative. It's no catastrophe, it's no real improvement either, so meh...

I used to post here now and again but about a year ago a new supplement came out and I saw that the community here was simply just mean. Now I just check in when I want to check out the archives for the good stuff. Now days I find /r/Shadowrun to be pretty chill and people actually talk about the current products they own.

It varies, if you are looking for RAW vs RAI there are certainly some lively debates.

I love when Wyrm chimes in, he is my definition of a LoreKeeper, however you do need to have a bit of a thicker hide as sometimes how he phrases the answer can send the wee cubs scurrying.
This is not his intent so do not take it personally, think of how Sheldon can answer a question sometimes, it is correct but could be phrased nicer. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Oh and NEVER ask him what time it is. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

But few can fault his knowledge/understanding of the material and if you can look past the gruff exterior of the response, you will find many useful nuggets to apply in the game.

If you have a concept that needs help developing or just statting for in game, whether a archetype or new piece of kit, there are plenty of people who can chime in, whether it's because the same idea or something similar has been spawned before or just folk with Real world understanding of some idea (or a good grasp of theoretical information) and can offer input.

For wilder debates the consipiracy theories/secret history section is great fun to read as people try to figure out the crazy stuff behind the curtain.

Then you also get so hear more from the independent writers like Crit and Patrick about their works which is always a plus and I do get sad that a lot of the indies do steer clear of here at DS because they often catch flak for stuff that isn't even directly related to them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

On the downside there are trollbaiters, folk who carefully coach their statements to try and intentionally irritate someone into saying something brash in response then act like they are the injured party in the conversation and harp at the replier about how the replier is trolling, which can then spiral into a flamefest carefully egged on by the TB.
Imagine a Martyr crying out about how they are being persecuted all the while with a bloody dagger in their hand behind their back and you would not be far off.
Worst luck is I know one of them is pals with guys in CGL and they have even admitted they have gotten out of the few bans they were actually caught out in by going over the mod's head.
Thankfully there are only a couple of these and you learn to tread carefully around them and do not get drawn in.
But more than a few times a new cub has wandered in only to get sideswiped by the TB and then leaves before sticking around long enough to realize the whole forum is much better than that.

More generally, beyond the caustic tone that is somewhat normal here, there's just not that much traffic anymore. Reddit and the Catalyst forums both get more posts than Dumpshock does.

"Arbeit macht frei"-Authors and SR5 happened, thats all. We are all sad to see SR going down the toilet.

SYL

Yeah, any time you have an edition change, you will lose people - not necessarily them storming off in anger, and more them not having as much to discuss with others if they didn't make the switch. There are posters like Sphynx who posted a lot less after the switch to SR4. SR5 turned off a lot of people, and even some of the people who switched over to it still have a "meh" attitude about it. The official forums have a lot more newer players, although they also have some posters who left the Dumpshock forums for some reason or other.

I check out both forums, myself, to get my SR fix. The official boards are moderated a bit more heavily, but it isn't all sunshine, roses, and the company line over there. It may not get as acerbic as Dumpshock, but there is still some snark, and while the pool of knowledge may not be quite as deep, there are still some lively rules discussions.

I think that's definitely a part of it. I have a hard time discussing SR5 in any depth because the discussion inevitably pushes up against bad game design decisions that can't really be justified beyond 'because that's what they printed'. So it's hard to have deeper conversations about the mechanics because the issues with the system hang over them so heavily. Same with the fluff, only a bit worse, as there are a lot of points where it certainly seems like some of the writers haven't read enough of the game's history to be able to properly contextualize the things they're adding to the setting.

Nah, I've had my shots.


This is the main reason I've not been very active lately. I don't touch SR5.


I like the Steam game. Haven't played it nearly as much as I've wanted to, though...

I liked the SRR Game, the base campaign at least . . i gave up on the Berlin Campaign because of the AI Cellar Mission . .
But it's still a bit disappointing to me, that it was changed that much after they had said it would be basically SR3 on computer <.<
And also because i expected something a bit more like Fallout 1, 2 and Tactics . . Still can't believe that appearantly nobody can make a game like that today anymore . .
And don't get me started on SRR, that's even worse in my eyes . .

Yeah, i play neither SR4 nor SR5 and the last time i got to play SR3 was over a year ago by now . . feels like i am a member of the cast of The Gamers - Hands of Fate right now <.<

I don't need no shots, i've been rabid before coming here and i feel fine, thank you very much!

Wasteland 2's worth a shot, if you're a big fan of that kind of game. It was fun for me in that same style.

This.




I love Shadowrun Returns. The Dragonfall Directors cut is the best of the official content. There's also a mod called "Shadowrun Unlimited" which is basically one man's quest to create an open-world game using the editor. Very reminiscent of the Sega SR.

Funnily enough, SR Returns is based on old school shadowrun, pre-4th.

Yeah, i got my founders package yesterday . . it's a bit closer, but still no cookie compared to the old fallouts ._.

Indeed SRR DF was a nice game, and I enjoyed playing it. However, IMHO the replay value is very small (depending on the scale of the budget) and I prefer games like Deus Ex Human Revolution, when it comes to gameplay (I do not thing that tactical combat does universes with such a great visualisation like Shadowrun justice - there is no feeling of awe, if a 2,60m troll walks besides you in a tactical view, contrary to a shoulder / ego shooter perspective).

SYL

True . . that's what i really liked about the F³ in 1st Person . . Super Mutants and Death-Claws are suddenly gods be damned awfully huge when you get close to them x.x . .

Too bad literally everything else about the game graphically was terrible. Bethesda can't make decent character models to save their lives.

The thing is, from the moment CGL announced they would start their own board it got the reputation of being a claqueur project to designed to drown out the critical voices on fan boards, particularly DS. Human confirmation bias means that such reputations are often self-fulfilling prophecies, even before you factor in more "active" measures...

Negativity is certainly an issue. I don't mind it in some ways because I can troll with the best of them, but I can see how it has chased people away.

A good example is how much people here seem to get their heckles up is the matrix in 5th Ed. The writers took the most overlooked ruleset in the setting and made genuine attempts to make it workable. Yes, there was some creative license taken to try and get deckers out of the armchair and on site and if you interpret the rules correctly (surprisingly, 90% of people don't/can't) it does exactly that. However, people just got so obsessed with realism they just couldn't get past it.

"How do decks pinpoint where devices are!? It's impossibullz because of modern wifi!!!!"

/sigh. Personally, I would have just had another crash and made wireless go away.... Like in that 'Revolution' show.

"Yeah, there's some satellite emitting magic and now devices don't work anymore....or some shit"

Anyway, I digress. The official forums don't have the zealotry around this sort of stuff and it's kind of refreshing.

The main problem people had with the SR5 matrix rules was that it gave nonsensical "bonuses" that made no sense - things like a matrix connection supposedly making extendable batons extend faster, or two DNI-linked pieces of 'ware talk to each other better.

Most of the so-called bonuses were things that used to be part of a device's normal functionality - to coerce people into carrying the idiot ball and being online, where they were subject to attacks from an undetectable vector that could permanently damage their 'ware or gear.

Wireless bonuses would make a lot more sense if they played up the role of tactical comm-nets and computer-aided targeting, and let that be the target for hacking attempts, rather than things like an internal air tank that needs to be hooked up to the internet to tell you how much air it has remaining.

High-tech stuff does need to make a smidgen of sense, future tech or not. Writers have been crafting plausible stories dealing with nanotechnology, faster-than-light travel, and other things for quite some time. But when you start doing things like saying "This gun shoots around corners, because, um, Buckyballs!" then you start jolting people out of the suspension of disbelief that is so essential to any work of fiction - or roleplaying game.

Honestly, I had an easier time getting Deckers onsite in SR3. That's because offline storage was a big deal, you couldn't access certain info unless you went in physically and got it.

The SR2 dungeon crawl matrix, for all its flaws, also did better at this. Because they used a map, you could see where accessing a site from the inside would bypass the choke points, and make things easier. The node idea from SR4.5 pretty much gets rid of this, since one IC program can cover an entire node. There's no benefit to going in.

But my biggest problem was the entire concept of the wireless Matrix. I don't have a problem with wireless decking, that's been around since SR2. Thing is, for all the warts, the Shadowrun setting is iconic. It's not a projection of our future, it's a view of a fictional setting that just happens to be in the future. This makes it a lot like Buck Rogers or Star Wars; it's not supposed to be speculative fiction, it's a reflection of our views of the future at a particular time. Nobody complains about wifi internet in Star Wars or Star Trek, we're too entranced with lightsabers and transporters.

SR4 got rid of this. They changed the setting: instead of an iconic cautionary tale of the future, they gave us a pale reflection of the present. Then, mechanics were shoehorned in, to reflect this watered-down vision. That might have been okay, had the mechanics been better; however, that's not what we got. They effectively double-downed on their view of the future with 5e, changing even more mechanics to support it.

What makes Shadowrun great is that it's iconic-- it has a bold view of the future, as reflected in the time it was written. Now, we have a weak version of the future, as reflected in the Windows Vista User Manual.

Even an iconic vison of the future needs plausability and playability - both missed in the Matrix rules from SR123 and 5.

SYL

Honestly I grow tired of the edition wars, just play the flavor of shadowrun that makes you happy. Yeah they all have their flaws, if you won't like wifi retcon it from your games. If you do great! Yeah 5th ed has it's flaws but to me it had enough changes to grab me from fourth. The problems I have, I have been able to add in small fixes to get around them and keep my table having a great time. Hell we had to do this with 3rd and 4th edition but after 15 odd some years we are still having a great time. My only real issue these days is the editing with the current edition get that cleared up and I'm even happier. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)