Honestly, I don't think they ever hit a "realistic" Matrix. And judging by the complaints, I'm not sure they ever really got a "playable" one, it's just a case of how many warts you can live with.

But then again, they don't have to. Star Trek is so famous for pseudo-scientific jargon, there's a special term for it: "Treknobabble". Nobody complains that the Enterprise's computer doesn't act anything like a modern one (and in some ways, is actually behind the times). In fact, even though some Trek tech is completely outlandish, famous scientists will sometimes defend the slim theory that might make then right-- for example, Stephen Hawking wrote a book on the Science of Star Trek. He made it clear that most of it was, at best, reaching... but he did illustrate a few ideas that might make it work. Other examples include a half-human who manages to live with green blood, a creature with DNA made out of rock, and let's not even get into the fact that omnipotent beings are so common, you can meet one on your way to the corner store.

Shadowrun is iconic, in that same vein. Is a full-VR matrix really plausible? I don't know, but it's sure a lot of fun to picture. Is Star Wars hyperdrives plausible? Lightsabers? Who knows? Who cares, I just remember being entranced by the lightsaber duels. If the Matrix is fun, and supports a strong vision-- whatever that might be-- you can forgive its lack of reality.

SW and ST are bad examples - they created unsiveres to distant in time and space that almost anything is possible. One part on what I feel is a central part of the Cyberpunk Genre is that is is fixed on a near and reachable future, in a world, where " I " or " You " or " We" may still live in and ask us how we would react to things like a VR Matrix (in some ways already researched by the US Air Force in the 80s) or Thunderbirds.

Let´s take Thunderbirds. With the current tech level flying tanks with heavy armor and weapons are not possible. But with vast improvements in material/engine science it is plausible (in the context of a RPG) that it may work. Cyberware too - but it strains the plausability for example if you introduce cyberware in your world, build 10 megacorps who all are heavily invested in cybertech & co, state that these megacorps control up to 75% of the world economy and then ... no one, from secretarys to special forces, use heavy augmentation. That breaks plausibility.

Or the Matrix: you can define that you have a heavy computerized world, as for example descripe in the SR3 Matrix 3 source book. Thats perfectly fine. But it breaks plausability if you make every computer and MP unit so incredible expensive that it makes more sense for runners to steal street lights (because they have incredible expensive computer units onboard) than to enter a corp research facility. Slight exageration here.

Every rule system is always defined by "how many warts you can live". While I like the SR4 system far more then any other edition I still have a very long lists of improvements. But what others described as "pale" is for me the first rule system which really makes sense in the way that (as an example) the drastically cut down matrix prices support the vision of a networked world (which was already described in SR2 VR und SR3 Matrix 3 - but not possible there due to incredible high matrix prices). And crunch must always support fluff. So, contrary to what others belive SR4 is far more true to the vision of a computerized, cybernetic enhanced, connected dystopian cyberpunk future than any other edition.

Btw: there is a difference in realism and plausability. Star Wars, while highly unrealistic, can be very plausible.

SYL

That's actually true of a lot of science fiction. Heck, I believe the Jetsons was supposed to take place in 2060, and nobody objects to them being unrealistic or implausible. We *are* living in the future, and even though we don't have jet packs, nobody complains about how an iconic future doesn't line up with modern technology.


I'm not sure about Thunderbirds, the last show by that name I watched was from the 60's or so. Shadowrun used to have cyber as a status symbol; datajacks were part of the corporate elite. Heavy augmentation was part of the world from the beginning.


Not sure about that one. If I recall right, SR3 had tortoises and breadboarding, which made powerful computers really cheap. They were as bulky as modern desktops, and they couldn't take you full-VR, but they were cheap.


Low prices on matrix gear is not enough to support a setting. Cheap-ish smartphone-like gear has been in Shadowrun since day one-- pocket secretaries were basically an 80's view of an iPhone. Basically, everyone could be on the internet. More powerful computers weren't that expensive, since most people would only have a at-home tortoise, and didn't need full VR or portability. As for cyber, augmentation prices actually increased in relation to the starting cash runners could have, so that actually became more restricted. On top of that, trodes worked so well, datajacks were basically unnecessary; and AR further reduced the need to go VR. That watered down the cyberpunk, electronic frontier aspect.

Another thing to consider is that the wireless matrix was poorly thought out and implemented. "Everything is wireless" is a good concept for speculative fiction, but it doesn't fit into the Shadowrun concept. If you think that through to its logical conclusion, you see that shadowrunning is basically impossible-- you can't cross the street without broadcasting your SIN, and at the failure rates of SINs, you will be caught and arrested while going down to the corner market.

Finally: just because Shadowrun is *a* vision of a cybernetic dystopian future, that doesn't mean it's *every* vision of the same. Fantasy is a good example of this: even though Tolkien and Terry Pratchett write about a basically standard fantasy world, their vision is nothing alike. In sci-fi, both Star Wars and the new BSG take place "a long time ago", but they're nothing alike. Shadowrun is not just an imitation of a cyberpunk world; it's a vision of a particular one, and adding in elements from other games and visions has historically not worked out well.

Bottom line: even though SR4.5 may be a better imitation of GitS than SR3, that doesn't automatically make it a better vision of Shadowrun.

Yes, indeed, except lots of people would have problems paying for the SR1235 prices. As in "breaking the suspension of disbelieve".



And yet you defined full VR as "iconic" - yet the normal wagesloave comp is not able to do thats (or with further workarounds). To be honest, dirt cheap links in SR4 with VR capability sounds far more iconic and true to the fluff in that regard.

Just two examples, where changes in SR4 were neccessary to support the iconic (and yes, VR and heavy cybernetics are iconic to SR, I totally agree in this point) vision of SR.



As the crunch in SR4 supports the fluff of Shadowrun far better to build a vision of a connected, computerized, augmented dystopian fantasy world than any other edition from 1 to 5, I tend to disagree. After all, a rule system should support the world vision and not contradict it.

SYL

Which prices are you referring to? Headware and datajacks are extremely cheap in SR1-3. The only cyber that's notably overpriced in relation to its benefit are cyberlimbs, and no edition of Shadowrun has handled them satisfactorily.



Well, you could with trodes, but you didn't get nearly the benefit of using a full cyberdeck and datajack. But according to the fluff, nearly every wageslave was equipped with a datajack and some headware. A good number of semi-skilled workers were given skillwires, etc. The new price ratios in SR4.5 actually hurt that concept. Dirt cheap comms and programs also nearly killed the whole Decker archetype, since script kiddies could go toe-to-toe with Fastjack and expect to win.


Exactly. Which is why the new White Wolf system is a poor fit for Shadowrun. They're certainly a dystopian world, but it's a poor fit for Shadowrun. And before you say anything, remember that Rob Boyle and Steve Kenson both, in various interviews, cited NWoD as an inspiration for 4e.

Beyond that, what rules are you thinking of that "better support the Shadowrun world"? Script kiddies being as good as experienced deckers? Cyberware being relatively more expensive and less effective? Sprites being more powerful than the otaku who summoned them?

To stay on topic (and that is, Dumpshock's status and not Shadowrun's one), I do think that the main forum should be divided into SR1-3, SR 4 and SR5 and a main, universe themed one.

As a short term perspective, it may divide the DS-community, but at least, it would slow down the edition war that we all get tired off.

Are they? Don´t you forget the surgery rules in Men & Machine (IIRC they were non-optinal)? Which makes everything extremly expensive? And no, compared to the SR4 prices the base prices for enhancements even without the surgery rules in SR1235 are extremely expensive.



My personal experience starting from SR2 to SR5 is that with SR4 the Hacker/Decker become far more common as a played character then in any other edition. Your experience may be different.



Dirt cheap programs and matrix tech / cbyernetics on the starting side with semi-linear progression into the extremly expensive area of military software/links and delta ware on the other side, so that you can have a reason for both gangers and low lifes to be part of this distopian world, together with professionals in the middle and legends / corp elite on the other side of the spectrum.



What are you talking about?

I suppose you go for the (software + skill + equipment)dice system in SR4? Well, a script kiddy usually does not have the raw skill rating of a true hacker, so he is not that good. He does not have the supporting skills for analyzing the situation (cybercombat, data analysis and other knowledge skills) either. He is missing edge, cybernetics, bioware, genetech and specialisation to further boost his hacking skills. There is no way that a script kiddy is as good as an experienced hacker. Just to give you some numbers: an experienced decker will have an initiative of around 25/5, around 20-25 dices (for exploit, manipulatoin etc together with supporting skills and multiple agents for specific situations and Edge to boot. Tell me: which script kiddy can beat that (very good / experienced) hacker?

But then again, with less then 1000 ¥ invested in a kiddy link and cracked software you can hack the stuffer shack around the corner or squeeze some money from the gang on the other side of the street if you are a true newbie or squatterhacker - something which is almost not possible with other editions (20k minimum price in SR3, 50k in SR5).

Yes, I firmly believe that a rule system supporting squatterhackers, professinal crminal hackers and high end legends is far superior for describing the Sixth World than a system which states "Pleaes come back if you are rich, only then you can be a decker and start decking to become rich".

I admit, I use the optional rule in SR4 where you use attribute + skill .. never understood why in the context of streamlining it was changed to software + skill in the first place. And yes, slang is important and I still prefer Decker as a slang description for a cyberspace intrusion specialist. At least SR4 had a slang list in the basic book, not like SR3 ... :-/

SYL

I think the last page has been pretty much on topic (with expression instead of content) with a sensible amount of discussion about a theme of the world without any Your Wrong or Acid coming out. It's also been fascinating to see how many different people have been positing on this thread to offer a few comments.

As for the Matrix? You could go Cold ASIST VR with a datajack and a Cyberterminal which is what must people used and to be honest costs similar to a high spec PC today. Cyberdecks were very special tools used for illegal and quasilegal activities. I made a reference page for how to use Cyberterminals for SR3 so my group could do matrix stuff without the decker but were not limited to just a random computer roll. They enjoyed it.

As for the Augments and the wealth notion of the Megas, look at Apple. Now replace things like the iPad etc (well don't really replace because, CommLinks) but add in cyber-modifications. The Datajack, Cyber Eye mods (which are on a par with Laser Correction + The newest phone in costs), Cosmetic mods (costing probably on a par with current treatments), medically sanctioned augments, military spending augments, Corporate Assisted augments (or need it for the job and you can pay it back to mamma corp in instalments). It all adds up. It;s just not presented as common as once it was, which is weird.

Everything in M&M was optional. Looking at the SR1 book, datajacks cost 1000; in 4.5, they cost 500. However, since the maximum starting cash was quartered, that means it actually went up by 50%. Data locks stayed at 1000 nuyen in both books, but because of the exchange rate, it's effectively quadrupled in price. The only unchanged piece of cyber that actually went down in price, relatively speaking, is the cranial bomb... and I don't know about you, but I don't recall many players taking that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)



Around SR2-3, I started seeing more hybrid deckers-- deckers who had a generous helping of another archetype. For example, the SR3 Combat Decker looked suspiciously like a light sam. I had a decker/rigger info specialist who did very well during that time. Hybrid deckers were an easy way around the Pizza problem: they had something to do while they made their way in, and then only spent a few minutes doing Matrix stuff.

Starting around 4e/4.5, I saw it swing back the other way. No one wanted to play a decker, and in the few home games where someone thought about it, the GM usually tried to discourage them. In Missions, I had a resurgence of the pizza problem, although in that case, it was take-out Chinese. When legwork started, everyone handed the decker a stack of question, then left to get take-out. When they got back, they went over the answers, asked a few new questions, and then took another break.


Boosted reflexes, hand razors, and cyberspurs were very cheap and common in gangers. In fact, the gang member archetype in the SR1 book had hand razors. And even the non-elite could afford datajacks, which were the prerequisitefor the fast lane of the Matrix highway. In fact, out of the mundane archetypes in SR1, half of them had datajacks. You didn't need to be "really rich", you could start with just a few and work your way up.



Well, here's the thing. In SR4.5, your maximum skill is 6, 7 with Aptitude. A decent script kiddie will have a skill of 3 or 4, maybe more. Assuming they all have the same equipment, that means a Fastjack-level decker will have about 3 dice on them, which averages to one success, most of the time. So, the script kiddie is running right alongside the matrix legends. Also, given the variability of the dice, the script kiddie can pull out ahead a good chunk of the time.


A script kiddie is someone who has top-of-the-line equipment, but not the skill of a pure decker. So, once we remove equipment as a factor, we're left with a skill vs skill comparison. Again, that's usually 3 vs 6, or one success on average. Remember, skill is not very important in 4.5-- it only makes up a small part of your dice pool. In previous editions, it was almost all of your dice pool-- you could allocate extra dice, but generally only up to your skill level, so having a better skill by 1 might mean you have +2 dice.

As for cyberdecks: the cheapest cyberdeck in SR1 ran for 6,200. In SR3, it was 14,000. If you went advanced and used the VR2.0 rules, you could push that further down, to like 7000 or so. Allowing for the exchange rate, you're looking at an equivalent cost of 1650 in 4.5 terms-- about equal to a midrange commlink with OS. So, I'd say squatterhackers were certainly possible before SR4, and were effectively better.

As every rule in the basic book and in every other crunch book (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)



As you don´t need a cyberjack in SR4 anymore that example is quite flawed. But lets take it for the sake of the discussion: since a lot of other prices went down as well, especially in the matrix area, you started way more with "professinal" equipment than in SR3. So, even if the starting amount was reduced, the absolute amount / value of your deck was increased (you can go really far with a rating 5/6 link, contrary on what you can achieve with a max level starting cyberdeck in SR3).



oO

That is not a script kiddy. That is a semi professional, decently educated computer specialist. Please re-read the skill definition of what skill 3 to 4 means. May I remind you of the generally accepted definiton of a script kiddy?

(wikipedia)

A script kiddy, by all means, have a max of 2, and usually 0 or 1. And no, it would be very strange, if an uneducated script kiddy whould have access to high grade cybernetics, nanoware, specialisations, gene etc. There may be of course the 0,1% exception (the kid with the rich daddy), but a script kiddy would usually half of the dicepool of a good hacker, at max. What you describe is like comparing a powered up street samurai comparing it to a squatter who found a main battle tank. Yes, there is a certain probability that a squatter can find and fire a heavy tank railgun, but then again its not what most people understand when you bring up the term "squatter".



I remember different. But perhaps you have a lot of players with low level skills. Lets take a more normal definition (without equpipment as you suggests). Skill 0 or 1 and edge 1 compared to skill 5 to 7, specialisation 2 and positive quality 2. And usually a professinal, experienced player/character as more edge than an uneducated script kiddy who lives from daddys money. So Edge 1-8. I don´t known your game or your prefered style, but I look at a vastly different dice level. And btw: only very few npcs and not so many player characters in SR1235 had skill levels of 7+. so the skill dice difference was very thin there too.



No. Previous Editions had the hacking pool which went sometimes higher then the skill,f ollowed by the task pool (which was usually smaller). And yes, it is one of the very few good things in SR5 that the skill limit was increased. In SR4 its skill (+ edge) + specialisation + program + other factors (like positive qualities). In SR3 it was skill + specialisation + hacking pool + task pool + other factors (+ karma pool for rerolls)



You forget the programs, which brings the sigma cyberdeck to around 20k ¥. If you use Virtual Realities to construct your own deck or program your own software, you are away from the game for weeks and months (sometimes even years AFAIK for high end programs and cooked chips). Hardy comparable to 1k¥ in hardware/cracked software. So: no, no squatterhacker in SR23 and 5.

SYL

/r/shadowrun Over on Reddit has a healthy Shadowrun presence. Reminiscent of a younger more innocent Dumpshock.

Tried it, still got bits of Alien stuck in my teeth ... feels icky..

I come to DS for my

and for the most part you can see the bile dripping maws from a mile off (usually overshadowed by the embittered Egos)
which makes it really easy to avoid the troll bait and flame traps.

and honestly, if it weren't for some of these "Characters" on here .. a lot of my NPC's would never have been given life.
Yup, Cain, MedicineMan, Critias, "Don't call me Patrick" and a few other named personas have taken on Bond-villain-esque roles in my games.

TL;DR - Came for the advice, stayed for the popcorn. Admittedly that probably puts off a few greener newcomers, but they eventually end up on the "other forums"
it's not like DS is the only place on the 'trix now is it !

Reading this thread, I see that Shadowrun needs a reboot. The awakening happened three years ago. The time has come to set things entirely in the future again.

I'm not even going to get into the Gordian knot of debate that's based on people's ideas about how the real world works today. For instance, basing game system debates on whether or not shadow gear is affordable by a functioning middle class. Maybe that's what happened here.

Next edition should note that prices reflect that these things are on the black market and made or modified to be untraceable. We don't get our things from shopping centers. And hacking should be primarily what you know how to do, not the kind of computer you use.

Seriously, rewrite a huge chunk of the rules from scratch.

I dont thing a hunge chunk of rules needs to be rewritten. I believe it just needs a more engaged line developer who takes its work seriously and a crew of dedicated authors / freelancers / playtesters and proof readers who want the make world breathable. Less "SIN6 breaking in minutes, cyberscanners, extended dice tests, online silencers and "Arbeit macht Frei"", more "skill 12, cheap matrix/cyberware on the low end and mentor spirits works for adepts as well".

SYL

This thread is iconic about DS's feeling.

And, well, I'm not into any Critias/Cain fight, but it's derailing exactely how Critias describes it, and Cain, your involved.

I'd really like this thread to stay onto topic.

Honestly, what I'm dying for (and working out in house rules myself) is basically a polished SR2, working the 2050's setting. Shadowrun Returns reminded me how much I love that era because five minutes into the game it felt like coming home. SR5's basic system assumptions are fundamentally incompatible with that setting, though, so I'm going back to the rules that spawned it.

Not needing a datajack is part of the problem, it removed some of the cyber from the cyberpunk part. That took it further away from the original concept.

But, let's examine your claim. The cheapest commlink, with the cheapest OS, costs 300 nuyen. Converted to SR1-3, that's about 1200 nuyen. Which is cheaper than the 6200 for the cheapest possible deck, but not by a whole lot.


I'm aware of the definition. I'm also aware that, "realistically", I have a skill of 2 or so in Computer by SR4.5 standards. The actual script kiddie's I've met are more skilled than I am, which places them at a 3 or 4-- "realistically speaking", that is. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


Whoa, didn't you just say that high-end matrix equipment and cyber were *cheaper* in 4.5? Which means they could have it easily.

The difference between a script kiddie and a real hacker, nowadays, is that a kiddie uses high end programs to do most of their work, while hackers back that up with actual skill. Since programs are easy to copy in 4.5, you can easily have pirated copies of all the high end stuff, and get equivalent equipment. You're confusing script kiddie and "squatterhacker"-- you're arguing that someone with bad equipment and bad skills is no match for a real decker. Which is true enough, but a scriptkiddie, by definition, uses *really good* programs and equipment.


Ok, you want to get into skills? First, remember that in Sr1-3, you only needed one good skill to be a decker: Computer. If you had Computer 6, you had almost all the skills you needed. There were a few others, like B/R and programming skills, but those were extra.

Starting with SR4, Computer was split into many subskills. Now, you needed to buy Computer, Hacking, Data Search, Cybercombat, and Software, just to start. That's bad enough-- your skill points were going to have to be spread thin-- but on top of that, there was the arbitrary limit of only one skill at 6 (or two at 5), and the rest were limited to 4. So, no matter what you did, you would have a skill of 4 in most of those areas.

So, even if we reduce script kiddies to a skill of 2 or 3 in all these areas, they're *still* within less than one success of the dedicated decker. If we assume skill 4, they'll be neck-and-neck in some areas, and possibly even ahead in a couple.

Going back to Classic Shadowrun, the base dice you rolled = your skill. There weren't many ways to get extra dice aside from the Hacking pool. And the Hacking Pool was limited by your skill-- if you only had Computer 3, you could add a maximum of 3 dice. So, skill was the main factor.


The task pool was not just small, it usually was only 1-3 dice you could allocate per turn. Specialization did increase your dice, but it reduced your general skill, which in turn reduced the number of Pool dice you could add. So, if you had Computer 3 with spec, you rolled 5 dice-- but could only add 1 Hacking Pool, and got the same 6 dice.


Well, if you want the cheapest possible deck in SR3, you take the Sigma (14,000), breadboard it (going to 7000), and then make it a cyberterminal, for a total cost of 700. You can't run hot sim on it, but you can handle pretty much any basic task, including hacking the Stuffer Shack. Compare that to the adjusted cost of the cheapest commlink in 4.5, which is 1,200. Programs are extra, but you can see that it's actually cheaper to get cheap decks in SR3.

I was trying to avoid this but... even though I'm pig-headed and stubborn, I'm not single-handedly capable of bringing down a forum. It takes to to tango, and I can't fight when there's no one fighting me.

Yes, I go off on tangents easily. Yes, I don't know when to quit, and I have a hard time letting go. And thanks to my autism, I literally do not see things the same way you do. There are many things that are perfectly clear to you that I can't understand, and vice versa. I admit all that, and I acknowledge that I'm not a pleasant person online.

With that in mind-- I've been here for about twenty years. You all know all this about me. Knowing this, knowing that I'm the type of person who'll charge a wall head-first... what does it say about the people who charge headfirst right back?

Before it goes into unreadable snippets of half sentences



Really? If you do not know the price differences and the corresponding levels of what equipment each "professional level" can have, please do not comment on it but reread cyberdeck/commlink, software and cybertech prices. You can have have for some hundreds / some thousand of ¥ a beginner link with beginner software, able to hack minor stoff. You can get lower five digit links and be a very decent hacker, going against corp servers (this is the sigma range in SR3 and which that you are barely able to hack lower end home terminals). You can go in the middle/high five digit range and have a top professional deck and go against most secure servers. In SR3 you dont even start with that without a Kraftwerk. After that, the legendary range comes with Excalibur and military links, which have both a special status in bot editions. Simply put: there is a smoother,more linear progression in SR4 through the different player levels and professinal levels. Same goes for cyberware. You can have dirt cheap matrix/combat ware in SR4, and go up from there into the millions depending on grade and essence usage. You usually start in the higher 4/5 digit range in SR3/5 and go up from there - again missing the sweet spot for the lower end and mass market - something I find extremely important for describing my Sixth world. Simply compare 1:1 prices like the cerebral booster, encephalon, rating 6 software/links



Only at character creation.

SYL

This is going to be one of those blunt, kinda unfriendly posts. Apple is clearly convinced SR4 is the pinnacle of game design for the line. Cain is not. There's no need to beat this to death in here when neither of you is going to convince the other.

I really have no intention to be offensive. And I have nothing against you and I don't remember we ever argued against each other.

To be honest, the argue into this thread with apple just serves to highlight my point.


I don't know for the other dumpshockers but I tend to skip every multiquote reply with arguing about every inch of the previous post. I consider that as weaking the debate by confusing it.

I'd wish the debates where more constructed and I'd wish threads to derail less.

ps: about threads derailing, I think that mods should divide threads more often when it derails.

I beg your pardon: you may be unfriendly but you are not allowed to post untrue comments:




I already ended my participation for this part of the discussion.

@sk8bcn
You may want to turn to #52 if you want to comment on how the multiquote started. Thank you very much.

SYL

Every new edition so far did exactly that, in case of Virtual Realities they even did it in the middle of an edition. A "genuine attempt" at making the matrix better is like a "genuine attempt" to bring peace to the middle east, trying honestly to sort out that mess is still an honorable endeavor, but don't expect any brownie points just for trying (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


Protip: If you want to criticize people's arguments, read them first. I'm not going to say "nobody said that", because somebody somewhere probably did at some time, but it was far from being one of the more popular complaints. OTTOMH, the shortlist of popular matrix-specific complaints would be:

- Wireless batons and silencers
- TMs nerfed to oblivion and then some
- Temple of Doom Syndrome


@sk8bcn:

That would be two dead boards and one board looking like the current Shadowrun board...

Godamn, who cares who started?

If you feel attacked, really, you're not.

I used that discussion as an exemple. Heck, in the past, I even made some multipost, double-header discussion going nowhere. And I probably will do some more.

But if I try to remember that I shouldn't, I will improve.
If collectively we acknowledge that, we can improve to make Dumpshock better. Myself, you, us included.

Why?

I find some posters beeing active depending on the edition.