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Cain
post Jan 21 2015, 06:15 AM
Post #176


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QUOTE
The whole purpose of a respirator is to clean the air you breathe, so it *has* to be the case that people are exposed to less atmospheric pollution in 2075 than they are today.
The whole purpose of mana barriers is to prevent intrusion by spirits, so it *has* to be the case that there are fewer problems with spiritual intruders in 2075 than there are today.

See, the second part, it doesn't follow from the first part. Any given piece of technology might help deal with some problem, but without addressing the wider context, you can't say whether the problem as a whole will be worse or better in 2075.

SINs help index data on people. 2075 has SINs. That doesn't mean that finding publicly available data on people is easier in 2075 than it is now. It also doesn't mean that getting access to secured data on people is easier in 2075 than it is now.

All of my posts in this thread have listed reasons why publicly available data might be lower quality and less comprehensive in 2075 than in 2015. (Quick recap: governments do much less, megas hate each other, megas hate publicly available resources that make people less dependent on them, megas are very possessive and controlling with their employees)


Fair enough, but the fluff in Shadowrun does not support that view. The assumption I get is that everyone's data is out there, and you can be sorted and tracked every moment of every day. Every example I've seen makes the claim that you are not just tracked, but tracked easily.

QUOTE
So, when you said that a Google search could give you information about where someone banks, what you meant is that Google will point you to sites that allow you to check credit reports? You seem very hung up on credit reports. Do keep in mind that we don't know whether credit reports actually exist in 2075, we don't know what might be contained in them, and we don't know how hard they might be to access.

What I mean is, right now, someone could use Google to track down a lot of information on me; and then from there, direct queries to find out the rest.

As for credit reports, they're just one example of the sort of thing that can be collected on you, right now. It's all basically public information. The scary part is that in 2070, there will be many times more information out there. So, even if there isn't a single group collating all this data, having your SIN attached to it will ease the collating process.

QUOTE
Identity theft is possible in 2015, yes.

I just don't understand how you go from that to: "By providing your SIN, you don't just give someone your address and phone number, you give them your entire credit history, every legal transaction you've ever done, all your medical records, the works." and "Anyway, not only does a SIN link to all your information, in some cases it's all you need to access that information (or money)."

Because you do. If you walk into a store, they run your SIN, and know the right financials. If you go to a doctor or are picked up by an ambulance, they scan your SIN and can access your entire medical history. If you walk into a secure area, your SIN is run and if they don't like you, they might keep a sharper lookout on you, or even deny you entrance.
QUOTE
I don't know much about SR4 or SR4.5, perhaps you could explain this "datatrail" to me? This is just publicly available data, that everyone is allowed to see and access?


Somewhat more than that. Basically, it's all the data you generate each day. It can be used to track you, in real time if need be. And in 4.5, anyone with security or admin access can see your datatrail, if you are in a node they control.
QUOTE
Again, you believe that bank account information for toll road users is currently a matter of public record, and as a result, it will likely also be in the public record (and easily accessible) in 2075?

Absolutely.
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Bogert
post Jan 21 2015, 04:10 PM
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QUOTE (Cain @ Jan 21 2015, 12:15 AM) *
Fair enough, but the fluff in Shadowrun does not support that view.

Progress!

Now, moving on, you put forward the argument that I'm mistaken, and in Shadowrun, it simply is the case that a great deal of information about people is publicly accessible and easy for anyone to get at.

I'm sorry to do this, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask you if you could provide citations to support that view. I haven't read as much Shadowrun material as you have, I'm sure, but in my reading, I did not get the same impression that you did. From what I've read, while there is a great deal of data "out there", the people who have that data guard it jealously.

So, while Renraku might have excellent data on your movements and activities inside their arcology this morning, if I'm just John Q. Hacker, and I'm looking at you sitting in a coffee shop on the other side of town in the afternoon, there's no easy¹ way for me to know that you were even inside the arcology earlier, and there's no easy² way for me to know where you went or what you did while you were there.

If you could provide textual evidence that I'm wrong about this, that would be awesome.

QUOTE
Because you do. If you walk into a store, they run your SIN, and know the right financials. If you go to a doctor or are picked up by an ambulance, they scan your SIN and can access your entire medical history. If you walk into a secure area, your SIN is run and if they don't like you, they might keep a sharper lookout on you, or even deny you entrance.

Citations on any of these three things would be great, if you've got them.

If, instead, you believe these things merely because of your mental model for how things *must* work in the Shadowrun universe, please see my post 175.

With regards to medical history, here's how I think things might work:
I walk into the office of my doctor, Dr. Gore, that I've seen for twenty years. This is in a secured neighborhood, so I'm broadcasting my SIN when I walk in the door. The receptionist does a query on my SIN in Dr. Gore's internal (somewhat secure) database, and brings up all my records.

I sign up for a contract with DocWagon. When I do, I tell them that my primary doctor is Dr. Gore, I give them his contact info. I also inform Dr. Gore that I've signed up for this contract, and I approve him forwarding my records to DocWagon when/if needed. I get shot in Seattle, as one does, and DocWagon shows up. They scan my SIN and bring up a copy of my medical records.

I'm in Aztlan, visiting an Aztechnology facility or something, and I have a heart attack. Paramedics are called (this is Aztlan, so they aren't DocWagon). When they arrive, they can scan my SIN, but unless I tell them about Dr. Gore, or have some kind of dead-man's switch on my commlink to unlock the copy of my medical records I might keep stored on there, they aren't going to have any idea about my medical history.

QUOTE
Somewhat more than that. Basically, it's all the data you generate each day. It can be used to track you, in real time if need be. And in 4.5, anyone with security or admin access can see your datatrail, if you are in a node they control.

I'm a bit confused. If a datatrail is really just a word for "all the data you generate each day", then it seems strange to me that an admin of whatever node I just walked into can see it. Suppose a local Mafia capo updated his entry on me on his commlink this morning, after I repaid a gambling debt. Then I walk into an MCT "node" controlled by an MCT admin. Can this MCT admin see that I'm now all paid up? Seems implausible.

Perhaps you could provide some quotes from 4.5 that explain how this is supposed to work?

QUOTE
Absolutely.

Since governments play a much smaller role in the economy of 2075, this point is mostly moot, but if you're interested in knowing more about matters of public record, perhaps I can enlighten you.

Matters of public record include things like births, deaths, marriages, and records of court proceedings. They do not include the details every transaction that anyone engages in with a governmental or government-owned entity.

When I pay my bill to a city owned electric utility, the details of that transaction are not published and placed in the Hall of Records for anyone to peruse at their leisure. Similarly, you cannot look at what tolls I've paid, or where/when I've paid for parking, or what I bought for lunch at the cafeteria down at the courthouse that day I had jury duty. (By contrast, the fact that I served on a jury is often a matter of public record, as is the transcript from the jury selection hearing where I was chosen.)

----------------------------------------
1. Hopefully this is a high security area, and this guy is broadcasting his SIN. If so, I hack into the GridGuide servers and look at the record of his movements for the day. If he didn't use GridGuide, I try to hack into servers of various transit providers, hoping that they might have recorded his trips. Alternatively, I could hack into this guys commlink, and hope that it has some record of what he did stored on it.

2. I've got to get into whatever Renraku hosts recorded the data. Not a pleasant prospect.
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Sengir
post Jan 21 2015, 07:55 PM
Post #178


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QUOTE (Cain @ Jan 19 2015, 04:59 AM) *
Isn't that exactly what SR5 says a SIN does?

And off for another round in the "nah nah nah, I'm not listening" cycle...
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Warlordtheft
post Jan 21 2015, 09:24 PM
Post #179


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Also the thing people dance around is data balkanization, that is one of the challenges of the SIN system. Suppose Bubba the love troll got out of Prison in the emerald city. He was previously sinless until his run in with the law, and now has a criminal sin. His biometric data is attached to not only Lonse Star who ran the prison, but KE (who arrested him and assigned him the sin), and the UCAS government (since it was under their contract). On his first day out he goes and buys a burger at McHugh's. McHughes now have a record of that transaction and that sin. Also, Bubba's bank has a record of that transaction. THat bank account is associated with his criminal sin (Provided by MOM's get them back to work campaign). So long as he uses that sin, it will track his daily activities. The bank can be asked by KE or UCAS authorities to to provide his financial records to boot. Being that Bubba's on parole (for life), the bank must comply and Bubba can't say no. Now suppose he goes through the Aztech Pyramid, it will be noted when goes through the door, but what he does there (unless he buys something which hits his bank account) would be recorded by Aztechnology but wouldn't be readily shared with KE, the UCAS government (unless asked, but even then).

Now let's say bubba gets a fake sin and lets his criminal sin go unused. The fake sin involves him getting into the database his descriptors (age, sex, height, hair color, eye color), as well as other information such as his name Eddie McLovin, data of birth, location (Kingdom of Hawaii). It also includes the activity up to that point. Such as previous addresses, where he went to college, etc. etc. This is where the rating of the sin comes into play. The higher the rating, the more databases have been changed that when cross checked against. Problems arise when the sin says he graduated from MIT, but when quiered the MIT student records show that the student does not exist. How thourough a check is made is dependent on the rating of the scanner, and the level of suspicion the Bubba (aka Eddie McLovin) is under. Rating 1 is the bare minimum (probably just checks to see if the SIN and Bank account information match), higher ratings check more items that might expose the fake ID. A rating 6 would basically amount to background check, that included biometric data. As long as the ID is used there is a chance they might get exposed as fradulent.

Now redjacks idea on a stolen ID is a different issue entirely. THey would not hold up to close scruitny as the minute it checks against the system it would see desrepancies. A rating 1 scanner would let it pass, rating 2 or higher would probably flag it quickly.

To me in SR universe it is easier to fake a sin than use a stolen one for just that reason. To get any useful shelf life out of a stolen one you'd need to change many more databases than you'd need to create an equivilent fake one.
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Redjack
post Jan 21 2015, 09:36 PM
Post #180


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QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Jan 21 2015, 03:24 PM) *
Now redjacks idea on a stolen ID is a different issue entirely. THey would not hold up to close scruitny as the minute it checks against the system it would see desrepancies. A rating 1 scanner would let it pass, rating 2 or higher would probably flag it quickly.
Do you mean to say: It would flag quickly after the expiration? ergo: when the legitimate users comes back on the grid.
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Warlordtheft
post Jan 21 2015, 10:18 PM
Post #181


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QUOTE (Redjack @ Jan 21 2015, 04:36 PM) *
Do you mean to say: It would flag quickly after the expiration? ergo: when the legitimate users comes back on the grid.


Yes, your 24 hour time frame is probably a good guess. Also, you'd be hard pressed to go off the grid in Seattle, or other developed areas. And if you go off grid (say you're going hiking in the NAN), your last reported place was the NAN Seattle boarder post. To show up 2 hours later in downtown Seattle might raise a few flags (depending on the severity of the check).


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Redjack
post Jan 21 2015, 10:29 PM
Post #182


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QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Jan 21 2015, 04:18 PM) *
To show up 2 hours later in downtown Seattle might raise a few flags (depending on the severity of the check).
Oh, good point. I see a quality for the stolen SIN. Something like: Geographically remote, +1 limit to checking device.
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Sendaz
post Jan 21 2015, 10:54 PM
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Another might be Corporate Related, +1 limit if a Corp SIN is being checked by a different Corporation.

A Renraku security guard is probably going to grill another corp's SIN harder than a normal national SIN just because they assume corporate espionage by default.

Not sure if one should exclude KE/LS from this despite the fact they are corps in themselves since they form the majority of police forces the runners will run into, unless of course someone was trying to access their office territory with the SIN.
But on the other hand given all the grief they get from other corps when dealing with extraterritorial, they may take out that little bit of vengeance by giving the corp SIN that extra look over hoping for something while they got them on their turf.
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binarywraith
post Jan 22 2015, 09:25 AM
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QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Jan 21 2015, 03:24 PM) *
Also the thing people dance around is data balkanization, that is one of the challenges of the SIN system. Suppose Bubba the love troll got out of Prison in the emerald city. He was previously sinless until his run in with the law, and now has a criminal sin. His biometric data is attached to not only Lonse Star who ran the prison, but KE (who arrested him and assigned him the sin), and the UCAS government (since it was under their contract). On his first day out he goes and buys a burger at McHugh's. McHughes now have a record of that transaction and that sin. Also, Bubba's bank has a record of that transaction. THat bank account is associated with his criminal sin (Provided by MOM's get them back to work campaign). So long as he uses that sin, it will track his daily activities. The bank can be asked by KE or UCAS authorities to to provide his financial records to boot. Being that Bubba's on parole (for life), the bank must comply and Bubba can't say no. Now suppose he goes through the Aztech Pyramid, it will be noted when goes through the door, but what he does there (unless he buys something which hits his bank account) would be recorded by Aztechnology but wouldn't be readily shared with KE, the UCAS government (unless asked, but even then).


Point of failure. His bank will know at least a small part of what he did inside the Pyramid, because everything in there that queries it for a transaction or credit check leaves traces on their end. Same with KE/LS, as each check of his criminal record leaves traces. Data does not exist in a vacuum, and communication is by its nature bidirectional.
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Cain
post Jan 22 2015, 09:54 AM
Post #185


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QUOTE
Now, moving on, you put forward the argument that I'm mistaken, and in Shadowrun, it simply is the case that a great deal of information about people is publicly accessible and easy for anyone to get at.

I'm sorry to do this, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask you if you could provide citations to support that view. I haven't read as much Shadowrun material as you have, I'm sure, but in my reading, I did not get the same impression that you did. From what I've read, while there is a great deal of data "out there", the people who have that data guard it jealously.

So, while Renraku might have excellent data on your movements and activities inside their arcology this morning, if I'm just John Q. Hacker, and I'm looking at you sitting in a coffee shop on the other side of town in the afternoon, there's no easy¹ way for me to know that you were even inside the arcology earlier, and there's no easy² way for me to know where you went or what you did while you were there.

Well, first of all, there's the real world analogy. Starting with SR4, the sixth world is largely a reflection of modern day, just forwarded a notch. All the information I've listed can be found today, if you want to put in the work to locate it.

Second, there's citations all over Shadowrun about this. Let's start with SR4.5:
QUOTE
The SIN, or System Identification Number, can be your best friend
or your worst enemy. Without one, it’s very difficult to do otherwise
simple things like rent an apartment, buy a car, or check into a
hotel. With one, however, the system can track almost every move
you make—what you buy, where you go, what you connect to on
the Matrix.

So, the *system* can track every move you make. Not John Q. Decker, the system itself tracks every move you make, automatically.

There's also a citation on your datatrail:
QUOTE
Every time you are online (which is usually all of the time) your
presence is logged. Your access ID is associated with all of your online
transactions and typically logged by any device you access. This record
is called your datatrail, and it may be used to track you down or to
link you to certain crimes or activities. Since you cannot just get rid of
your access ID, this would put a damper on staying in the shadows, but
there are ways around the problem.


So, your datatrail can easily be used to track you down. One more for good measure:
QUOTE
The problem with most bank accounts, however, is that they require
a SIN and they keep transaction records, meaning that all of your
purchases create a datatrail. Naturally, however, enterprising capitalists
and criminal institutions have risen to the challenge. Numerous “offshore”
banks provide secure accounts to legitimate users, but unlike
standard banks they keep their customer information private, do not
share transaction data, and do not report to government authorities.


Now, you might be asking how easy it is to follow your datatrail. 4.5's rules is that it simply takes a Track action to locate you and all your information. I'm uncertain what 5e's rules are, but it is easy to track people, especially since Track is a common use program.

On top of that, there are numerous examples in the fiction of runners doing a quick check on a person, basically the equivalent of feeding them into Google. It won't reveal hidden information, but it might give them a starting point for future hacks. Also, the concept that people are collecting and selling "garbage" information also goes back to SR1-- the first fiction book, Into The Shadows, references a group called the Burakumin. They're basically info sifters, going through garbage data and selling whatever they think might be useful. In the story I'm referencing, they found what basically amounted to a cosmetic counter receipt, and almost completely unraveled a very high rating fake SIN.

QUOTE
Citations on any of these three things would be great, if you've got them.

I've given you multiple citations, so just one for now:
QUOTE
These personal details can also be transmitted (again in encrypted
format) on an as-needed basis, as authorized by the user. For example,
a store may ask for your cred account information (and possibly credit
history or even licensing if you’re buying restricted goods), a hospital will
ask for your medical records and insurance, while a security checkpoint
might demand your SIN, passport, and criminal record. For security
purposes, such data can also be transmitted at a lower Signal rating, via
a short-range, line-of-sight infrared beam connection, or by physically
linking the commlink to a terminal and transmitting by fiberoptic cable.


Now, you might be thinking that Joe User has to approve all that. True enough, *but* they can require you to transmit all that information to get permission to walk in the door. I've repeatedly cited the example of an A-security zone requiring everyone broadcast their SIN and related information. And they can demand all that and deny you entrance, or if they do let you in, they will eye you suspiciously. (That[s a reference to an example in a SR1 book, the Neo Anarchist's Guide to Real Life, which was written before the wireless matrix was implemented.

QUOTE
With regards to medical history, here's how I think things might work:
I walk into the office of my doctor, Dr. Gore, that I've seen for twenty years. This is in a secured neighborhood, so I'm broadcasting my SIN when I walk in the door. The receptionist does a query on my SIN in Dr. Gore's internal (somewhat secure) database, and brings up all my records.

I sign up for a contract with DocWagon. When I do, I tell them that my primary doctor is Dr. Gore, I give them his contact info. I also inform Dr. Gore that I've signed up for this contract, and I approve him forwarding my records to DocWagon when/if needed. I get shot in Seattle, as one does, and DocWagon shows up. They scan my SIN and bring up a copy of my medical records.

I'm in Aztlan, visiting an Aztechnology facility or something, and I have a heart attack. Paramedics are called (this is Aztlan, so they aren't DocWagon). When they arrive, they can scan my SIN, but unless I tell them about Dr. Gore, or have some kind of dead-man's switch on my commlink to unlock the copy of my medical records I might keep stored on there, they aren't going to have any idea about my medical history.

Current fluff says it's either carried on your commlink, or on a cloud server for backup. So, there's no special release from your doctor, they scan your commlink and SIN and get it. Docwagon being an ambulance company, they more than likely have an override.

QUOTE
I'm a bit confused. If a datatrail is really just a word for "all the data you generate each day", then it seems strange to me that an admin of whatever node I just walked into can see it. Suppose a local Mafia capo updated his entry on me on his commlink this morning, after I repaid a gambling debt. Then I walk into an MCT "node" controlled by an MCT admin. Can this MCT admin see that I'm now all paid up? Seems implausible.

I provided the quote earlier, but here's basically how it works:

Everywhere you go in the Matrix, you leave a trail. Every thing you do is logged and recorded somewhere, which means anyone can follow the trail. By using the Track action, they read the logs for everything you've done in the Matrix so far, and can trace it back to you. It follows you all the way back to your originating node, collecting your access ID along the way, and the list of everything you did while you were there. Since Track can follow you through many different nodes, just switching nodes won't be enough to hide yur datatrail.
QUOTE
If I am correctly understanding you, I agree that this would also make possible the situation you envision in post 49, I just don't see how your idea is meaningfully different from my point 3. There is no suggestion in the text of any kind of central indexing database. Similarly, there is no suggestion of any Indexing Database A, B, or C.

First: if you're going to repeat a point, please just repeat the point. I don't want to have to sort through the huge long posts to figure out what you're referring to, please.

Second: with actual AI's handling the searching, you don't need one central index. You can send out feelers to lots of search engines, all of which can send out feelers to others, and so on. It's not an index anymore, its a network.
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Cain
post Jan 22 2015, 09:59 AM
Post #186


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QUOTE
By contrast, here's the mental model I've formed thinking about the same example:
A. At some point in the past, you installed the "Grab&Go" app on your commlink, in the process, you created a Grab&Go account. (This is like a PayPal account)
B. At some point after that, you transferred some money from your regular bank account to your new Grab&Go account.
C. As long as you have the app loaded, whenever you walk into a Grab&Go enabled store, your commlink handshakes with the store's transaction server.
D. When you pick up the book, your Grab&Go app updates your digital "shopping cart", which lets you know all that you're carrying and will be charged for if you walk out of the store.
E. As you walk out the door with the book, your Grab&Go app transfers payment for the book to the store's transaction server. (If your app failed to pay the store would automatically call security, naturally.)

The fluff does not support you on that. They indicate that the information is either carried on your commlink (and broadcast as a requirement for entry into certain places) or carried on a cloud server for easy access, in case your commlink goes bad. I've already provided you with several citations to that effect.

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Kyrel
post Jan 22 2015, 12:56 PM
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QUOTE (Cain @ Jan 22 2015, 10:54 AM) *
QUOTE
The SIN, or System Identification Number, can be your best friend
or your worst enemy. Without one, it’s very difficult to do otherwise
simple things like rent an apartment, buy a car, or check into a
hotel. With one, however, the system can track almost every move
you make—what you buy, where you go, what you connect to on
the Matrix.



So, the *system* can track every move you make. Not John Q. Decker, the system itself tracks every move you make, automatically.


I think you may be reading a little more into the section you quoted, than it supports. At least as I read it. I agree with you that the system is set up to log the presence and actions of your SIN or access ID automatically, and if you go looking for this log information, it is relatively easy to locate and browse through, in order to get a picture of where you've been, and what you've done. However, in my mind, there is a difference between the system being set up to log information and store it in a multitude of different systems and locations, and then having the "system" automatically go and combine the data into a collected file on you, located in one place, that effectively says where you went, and what you did there. It's possible to do, but I don't believe that the quoted part here supports that interpretation. "Can" does not equal "Will Do". And while AI's might be sentient, the "system" as a whole is not, as far as I know.

Also, what's the point of automatically collecting all this data and storing it in a single file? There isn't one, because of two things. 1) It's too easy to do on an ad hoc basis if needed. 2) There simply isn't any point in doing something like that for most people.
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Bogert
post Jan 22 2015, 04:24 PM
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Cain, thanks so much for gathering all these quotes, very helpful!

QUOTE (Cain @ Jan 22 2015, 03:54 AM) *
Well, first of all, there's the real world analogy. Starting with SR4, the sixth world is largely a reflection of modern day, just forwarded a notch.

Well, the technology is mostly stuff we have + some variable level of technological advancement. Society, government, the economy, these are all very different. My position is that many of the ways that 2075 differs from our world would make data harder to access for the general public. So, just because something is easily found today, doesn't mean that it will easy to find in 2075.

QUOTE
So, the *system* can track every move you make. Not John Q. Decker, the system itself tracks every move you make, automatically.

I'm afraid "the system" here is a little nebulous. I don't disagree that there is a great deal of data "out there". I argue that that data is not necessarily easy to find or easy to access. I was hoping for somewhat more concrete examples, examples of people being easily tracked and traced.

QUOTE
So, your datatrail can easily be used to track you down.

A difference between the quote you cited and your interpretation/summary of that quote: you've inserted the word "easily", and you've replaced the word "may" with "can". In doing this, you suggest that this quote supports your position more than it does mine, when this is not the case.

In the footnotes to my last post, post 177, I discussed ways that John Q. Hacker could in theory try to trace your movements back to the Renraku arcology, and could attempt to determine what you did there. I don't think that this is impossible for him to do, by any means. Our dispute is simply over whether this is easily done, done without risk.

QUOTE
One more for good measure:

This quote suggests that making all your transactions private and secure is as simple as getting an off-shore bank account. That part actually supports my position I think? Now, there is the statement that standard bank accounts are not kept private, but this is not a point of disagreement between us. As I've said previously, many times, in my posts 141 and 155 among others, I agree that most SINners in 2075 have no privacy. I'm sure their employers, at least, have very comprehensive information about them. That isn't the same as saying that every piece of information about them is easily accessible by the general public.

QUOTE
Now, you might be asking how easy it is to follow your datatrail. 4.5's rules is that it simply takes a Track action to locate you and all your information. I'm uncertain what 5e's rules are, but it is easy to track people, especially since Track is a common use program.

In 5e, if you can get 2 marks on someone, you can use Trace Icon¹ to get only their current physical location. Since 2 marks is a pretty high level of permissions, I assume that this works by basically asking, "Hey, commlink, where are you?" If it instead involves looking through other people's logs to find the commlink in question, I'm not sure why it would require marks on the commlink at all.

If Track works like you say it does in 4.5, making it simple and easy to legally get "you and all of your information", then that would seem to be a major mechanical difference between the editions. But, in a way, this makes sense, isn't the Matrix of 2075 supposed to be considerably more locked down and controlled than it had been before?

QUOTE
On top of that, there are numerous examples in the fiction of runners doing a quick check on a person, basically the equivalent of feeding them into Google. It won't reveal hidden information, but it might give them a starting point for future hacks. Also, the concept that people are collecting and selling "garbage" information also goes back to SR1-- the first fiction book, Into The Shadows, references a group called the Burakumin. They're basically info sifters, going through garbage data and selling whatever they think might be useful. In the story I'm referencing, they found what basically amounted to a cosmetic counter receipt, and almost completely unraveled a very high rating fake SIN.

Man, examples like you're talking about in the first part of this paragraph would be great, this is just what I'm looking for. Not just the initial search, which you admit doesn't reveal any kind of "hidden" information, but then how they go from there to get more detailed info. Is it quick and easy and risk-free, like you seem to suggest? Or is it difficult and dangerous, like I think it would be? Examples of people actually doing it would be perfect for helping us figure this out.

The second part, with the "garbage" info, isn't really on point I don't think. What we're talking about is how you go from a SIN to get data about the person connected to that SIN. Sifting and analyzing data to eventually reveal interesting tidbits about random SINs is kinda going in the opposite direction, though it could present some interesting setting detail.

QUOTE
I've given you multiple citations, so just one for now:

Now, you might be thinking that Joe User has to approve all that. True enough…

Wow, that quote kinda seems like a slam dunk for my argument, doesn't it? I asked you for evidence that given only a SIN, you can easily access someone's bank info or medical info, you responded with a quote that details how you need to explicitly ask someone to send you their bank info or medical info.

I mean, if all that data were easily accessible using just Joe User's SIN, then obviously they wouldn't need to ask him to send them the data, right? And why would Joe take the time to pull out a fiber optic cable and plug it in and transmit the data securely from his commlink to their terminal? If it's all easily accessible by anyone, why does Joe care?

I don't actually understand what you're arguing at this point? I mean, this just directly contradicts the stuff you were saying in post 49, doesn't it?

QUOTE
...*but* they can require you to transmit all that information to get permission to walk in the door. I've repeatedly cited the example of an A-security zone requiring everyone broadcast their SIN and related information. And they can demand all that and deny you entrance, or if they do let you in, they will eye you suspiciously. (That[s a reference to an example in a SR1 book, the Neo Anarchist's Guide to Real Life, which was written before the wireless matrix was implemented.

You've repeatedly cited an example where people are required to broadcast their SIN and related information, to get in the door someplace? Could you re-post it, or maybe give me a post number? I don't remember anything like that. What was the related information exactly? It was like bank account information and medical history and stuff that people were broadcasting?

Broader point, sure, the hospital requires you to verify your bank balance info before they'll treat you, yes it's a dystopia, etc. etc. That isn't the same as saying that this stuff is easily accessible by the general public. Again, if you look at the quote you provided on this, this just seems like spectacular reinforcement of my position. It's hard to imagine something that could better serve my argument.
-------------------------------------
1. Getting marks on someone illicitly is what I would consider difficult and dangerous. You have to have a cyberdeck to even attempt it (and look at the prices on those things), you (probably) have to get close to them, every time you do it there's a chance they'll know you're hacking them, you might accidentally give them marks on you, and in any case, you're starting the clock on Convergence, which is no fun.
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Bogert
post Jan 22 2015, 04:47 PM
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QUOTE (Cain @ Jan 22 2015, 03:54 AM) *
Current fluff says it's either carried on your commlink, or on a cloud server for backup. So, there's no special release from your doctor, they scan your commlink and SIN and get it. Docwagon being an ambulance company, they more than likely have an override.

Cool, that works too. I suggested that you might keep a copy of your medical records on your commlink in my example, you may have noticed. In any case, keeping it in a secure file on your commlink is very different from, "If you give someone your SIN, you give them your medical records." which is a paraphrase of your position as I understand it.

Not sure about any "override"; in the quote you provided, a hospital has to ask for you to transfer your medical records to them.

QUOTE
I provided the quote earlier, but here's basically how it works:

Everywhere you go in the Matrix, you leave a trail. Every thing you do is logged and recorded somewhere, which means anyone can follow the trail. By using the Track action, they read the logs for everything you've done in the Matrix so far, and can trace it back to you. It follows you all the way back to your originating node, collecting your access ID along the way, and the list of everything you did while you were there. Since Track can follow you through many different nodes, just switching nodes won't be enough to hide yur datatrail.

Yeah, I don't really know much about 4.5, but since I don't play it, this is really a question of essentially historical interest to me. There doesn't seem to be anything like your "Track" in 5e.

QUOTE
Second: with actual AI's handling the searching, you don't need one central index. You can send out feelers to lots of search engines, all of which can send out feelers to others, and so on. It's not an index anymore, its a network.

This is something of a minor side point, but if you'd like, I can try again to explain how search engines work?

They are not magic. They have automated crawlers that wander through the public web, and index what they find. These crawlers don't have the capability to break into any system that's secured in even a rudimentary way. (In 2015, you can simply post a sign saying, "Don't crawl this." and search engines will respect it.)

The crawlers collect information during these wanderings, which the search engine then compiles into a large central index, which is queried when a user attempts a search. But, and this is key, if something isn't publicly accessible, it will never be crawled and indexed in the first place.

You've suggested that perhaps search engines in 2075 will be different, and the crawlers in use then will hack into secured systems to gather confidential information which would then be incorporated into public indexes. I've attempted to explain why this is implausible a couple times, most recently in my post 172.

Assuming for the moment that no one releases an army of crawler/hacker bots onto the web to break into and index every system they can find, you have to accept that search engines will only include data visible to the general public. Since, I believe, the extent of this data will be quite limited in 2075, I don't feel that search engines will be a very good resource for digging up detailed information on people.

If you disagree, you can argue either, 1. Search engine crawlers will be hybrid crawler/hackers in 2075, or, 2. Lots of information about people will be publicly accessible and visible to anyone who would like to look at it. I haven't seen any remotely convincing arguments on either of these two points yet, but if you'd like, feel free to make an attempt. Hypotheses about multiple different search engines won't do any work for you though, I'm afraid.

QUOTE (Cain @ Jan 22 2015, 03:59 AM) *
The fluff does not support you on that. They indicate that the information is either carried on your commlink (and broadcast as a requirement for entry into certain places) or carried on a cloud server for easy access, in case your commlink goes bad. I've already provided you with several citations to that effect.

I'm not sure what you're saying here? In my example, the Grab&Go app is loaded on your commlink, yes? In fact, the fundamental way that my mental model differs from yours is that I allow commlinks to do more of the work. From what I've read, you seem to generally jump to the conclusion that everything is always server-side, and you imagine a commlink as essentially a dumb transponder.
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Cain
post Jan 22 2015, 07:24 PM
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QUOTE
Also, what's the point of automatically collecting all this data and storing it in a single file? There isn't one, because of two things. 1) It's too easy to do on an ad hoc basis if needed. 2) There simply isn't any point in doing something like that for most people.

Like I said, you don't need a single file. You can hit five dozen search engines easily enough.

QUOTE
This quote suggests that making all your transactions private and secure is as simple as getting an off-shore bank account. That part actually supports my position I think?

Actually, the opposite. It suggests that off-shore bank accounts and the like is considered a criminal activity, or at least suspicious. Definitely not something Joe Average would have; and while much more possible for Joe Shadowrunner, it's easier to use a fake SIN, as it's less suspicious.

QUOTE
In 5e, if you can get 2 marks on someone, you can use Trace Icon¹ to get only their current physical location. Since 2 marks is a pretty high level of permissions, I assume that this works by basically asking, "Hey, commlink, where are you?" If it instead involves looking through other people's logs to find the commlink in question, I'm not sure why it would require marks on the commlink at all.

If Track works like you say it does in 4.5, making it simple and easy to legally get "you and all of your information", then that would seem to be a major mechanical difference between the editions. But, in a way, this makes sense, isn't the Matrix of 2075 supposed to be considerably more locked down and controlled than it had been before?

Check me on this, because I'm weak on the 5e matrix, but isn't the whole point of hacking and marking that you *don't need* to get permissions?

Additionally, I looked a bit further. Track is used to locate someone's physical location. If you want info on a specific persona, I believe you use Matrix perception. If you want to search the whole Matrix for public information on someone, that's a Matrix Search action, with a Threshold of 1. That seems to represent a Google search, but adapting for 2070 computer technology.

QUOTE
Man, examples like you're talking about in the first part of this paragraph would be great, this is just what I'm looking for. Not just the initial search, which you admit doesn't reveal any kind of "hidden" information, but then how they go from there to get more detailed info. Is it quick and easy and risk-free, like you seem to suggest? Or is it difficult and dangerous, like I think it would be? Examples of people actually doing it would be perfect for helping us figure this out.

That's a traditional part of any shadowrun, at least in my experience, although Sr4 was when it really became a big deal.

To answer your question, switching from "public" to "hidden" information does depend on the narrative requirements, but the public information provides a key to target the deep searches. So, in the example I gave, someone was looking for dirt on a woman, but didn't know where to look for evidence. By chance, someone got a hold of a cosmetics counter receipt, that included a pheromone-matched perfume sample. That was enough to connect the dots back to her previous identity-- not enough to prove it, but then further searches yielded more connections, which eventually became enough for a solid lock.

In practical terms, the decker starts with a general Matrix search, equivalent to feeding keywords into Google. They narrow it down to a couple promising leads, then do a search for detailed information. Off that, they pick one of two (ir any) targets for a full hacking run. How risk-free the data is depends on the target: Jane Dough's full information, even "hidden", will be less risky than trying to find Damien Knight's grocery list.

QUOTE
I mean, if all that data were easily accessible using just Joe User's SIN, then obviously they wouldn't need to ask him to give them the data, right? And why would Joe take the time to pull out a fiber optic cable and plug it in and transmit the data securely from his commlink to their terminal? If it's all easily accessible by anyone, why does Joe care?

Point one: It makes it easier. And gives it a veneer of legality.

Point two: I have no idea what a fiber optic cable has to do with anything.

Point three: he doesn't. Joe Public, by and large, doesn't care about privacy in a world of bread and circuses.

Following the links back to past points hidden in large posts is getting bothersome. If you need to repeat a point, please repeat it.

QUOTE
You've repeatedly cited an example where people are required to broadcast their SIN and related information, to get in the door someplace? Could you re-post it, or maybe give me a post number? I don't remember anything like that. What was the related information exactly? It was like bank account information and medical history and stuff?

Well, since I just made a big deal about reposting points instead of confusing cross-references, why not?
Example #3
Bitsy is walking down the street on the way to meet her ’warez dealer in one
of the nicer areas of town. She’s in hidden mode since she doesn’t want to
have to deal with the obnoxious new viral marketing campaign Horizon has
been spamming along the public thoroughfares. She’s lost in thought as she
walks, so she fails to notice the Lone Star drone overhead that scans her. The
drone drops a spotlight on her and announces via loudspeaker that she’s
“hiding” in public—a violation in this high-security sector. Bitsy instantly sets
to work finding the drone’s signal so she can hack in and deal with the pigs. As
she homes in on it and brute-force hacks past its firewall, the drone attempts
to get a read on her access ID and also runs a sensor scan on her face to feed
to a facial recognition program. Bitsy’s access ID is forged—for exactly this
sort of situation—but after she nukes the drone’s OS she decides to get out
of the area fast. Not only will the drone reboot itself soon, but a squad car
may show up quick with her mugshot in hand, transmitted by the drone back
to Lone Star’s dispatch before she could take it out.


Or:
Most users carefully control how much information they make
publicly available, but the law often requires certain core data be broadcast
in certain areas (SIN must be made available on UCAS federal
property and many corporate enclaves), or for certain data to be accessible
by security officers who attempt to access it with authorized security
codes. In high-security neighborhoods and traffic-heavy business
districts, it is common practice for police drones to scan the PANs of
random people on the street; those with something to hide are usually
assumed to be up to no good.

Now, what this says is that on certain property (which can be just a "nicer area of town"), you *must* broadcast your SIN and select other personal data, just to walk down the street. Also, on corporate-controlled areas, they can require you to broadcast any data they want you to, and it's legal. Ostensibly, it's "for security purposes", but it's still there for anyone to access.

QUOTE
Broader point, sure, the hospital requires you to verify your bank balance info before they'll treat you, yes it's a dystopia, etc. etc. That isn't the same as saying that this stuff is easily accessible by the general public.

I can't see anything more accessible than "broadcast to the world at large", and in some places that's exactly what you need to do.
QUOTE
1. Getting marks on someone illicitly is what I would consider difficult and dangerous. You have to have a cyberdeck to even attempt it (and look at the prices on those things), you (probably) have to get close to them, every time you do it there's a chance they'll know you're hacking them, you might accidentally give them marks on you, and in any case, you're starting the clock on Convergence, which is no fun.

I admit I'm weak on the SR5 mark rules, they're very confusing, but do you have a page reference saying that you must have a cyberdeck, or that it's dangerous? The one paragraph on marks I could find says the exact opposite:

Marks are routinely invited and given for normal, everyday,
legal use of various services. They act as keys, permission
slips, invitations, and account privileges on every
icon in the virtual world. For example, the Seattle Public
Library invites over 50,000 marks per day for its VR books,
films, trideos, and other items in its collection. While the
great percentage of mark traffic is legitimate
, hackers try
to get marks illegally to facilitate their own plans.

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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jan 22 2015, 07:30 PM
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Cain...
Granting (on the givers side)/Accepting (on the receivers side) Marks in SR5 is legal and easy.
Forcing a Mark is a Sleaze or Attack Action, is illegal, and requires a Cyberdeck. Comlinks do not have the capabilities to force a Mark on anything.
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Cain
post Jan 22 2015, 07:35 PM
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QUOTE
You've suggested that perhaps search engines in 2075 will be different, and the crawlers in use then will hack into secured systems to gather confidential information which would then be incorporated into public indexes.

No, no, no. You keep coming back to this, and it's nowhere near my point.

My point is that there's a "staggering" amount of information on you out there, all public, all easily accessed if you spend the time to look for it. Your counter-point is that it isn't easy to access, because it''s not all filed in one place. But that doesn't matter, because you can search the *entire matrix* in less than a minute.

I don't need to "hack" anybody to get a basic level of information, today. In Shadowrun, with the total lack of privacy, there's going to be even more information with even less privacy concerns. I won't need to do a full shadowrun on Stuffer Shack to find out you like nuke-it Burritos, that's not information that would be secure.

You seem to be hung up on the idea that everyday information in Shadowrun is private. It is not. People are looking at your records all the time, today; and the shadowrun fluff indicates it's only worse.

QUOTE
I'm not sure what you're saying here? In my example, the Grab&Go app is loaded on your commlink, yes? In fact, the fundamental way that my mental model differs from yours is that I allow commlinks to do more of the work. From what I've read, you seem to generally jump to the conclusion that everything is always server-side, and you imagine a commlink as essentially a dumb transponder.

No, the point is *there is no app for that*.

Your commlink has to broadcast your SIN, and in some cases, your financial information, just to go to the mall. Now, we could assume that your commlink is broadcasting every purchase you ever made, since second grade, to every store in the vicinity. Even with 2070 bandwith rules, that's not likely. So, more likely is that your commlink is broadcasting access to those files to any store nearby; or more likely, sending the keys to that info for anyone to look at.

You don't need a special app, this is just how business is done in 2070.
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Cain
post Jan 22 2015, 07:39 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jan 22 2015, 11:30 AM) *
Cain...
Granting (on the givers side)/Accepting (on the receivers side) Marks in SR5 is legal and easy.
Forcing a Mark is a Sleaze or Attack Action, is illegal, and requires a Cyberdeck. Comlinks do not have the capabilities to force a Mark on anything.

Okay, so a comm can't "force" a mark on someone... but if you ask them to accept one, say as part of a bunch of "Click here to see today's specials!" ads at the mall, it's basically as easy as that? Or, if the store you walk into says "Cookies required" (or whatever the term is in 2070), then they can get a mark on you easily?
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jan 22 2015, 07:40 PM
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QUOTE (Cain @ Jan 22 2015, 12:39 PM) *
Okay, so a comm can't "force" a mark on someone... but if you ask them to accept one, say as part of a bunch of "Click here to see today's specials!" ads at the mall, it's basically as easy as that? Or, if the store you walk into says "Cookies required" (or whatever the term is in 2070), then they can get a mark on you easily?


The source asks and you accept. That is essentially all it takes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
But you are never forced to accept a Mark unless someone is hacking you.
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Redjack
post Jan 22 2015, 07:54 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jan 22 2015, 01:40 PM) *
The source asks and you accept.
I was generally under the impression that hosts would invite marks rather than asking you to accept a mark; the library example comes to mind.
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Bogert
post Jan 22 2015, 08:15 PM
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QUOTE (Cain @ Jan 22 2015, 01:24 PM) *
Check me on this, because I'm weak on the 5e matrix, but isn't the whole point of hacking and marking that you *don't need* to get permissions?

Additionally, I looked a bit further. Track is used to locate someone's physical location. If you want info on a specific persona, I believe you use Matrix perception. If you want to search the whole Matrix for public information on someone, that's a Matrix Search action, with a Threshold of 1. That seems to represent a Google search, but adapting for 2070 computer technology.

I'm not sure that I understand your first question here. Marks represent a degree of control/ownership over an icon.

If you're discussing 5e, there is no "Track", as far as I'm aware. Presumably you mean "Trace Icon" is used to get a physical location? (Note that this requires marks.)

Matrix Perception will get you other information about an icon without requiring marks, but it won't get you any information that's hidden or protected. Users choose what information they want hidden or protected, and as far as I can tell, in 2075 it's considered totally normal and unremarkable to have lots of information hidden and protected on your commlink.

Matrix Search also doesn't require marks, and does look like the rough equivalent of a Google search. (It's legal and safe.) Guidelines on what information is available using Matrix Search are vague enough that I don't think we can use them to resolve our disagreement. (Though, they do specify that anything kept in a host that isn't publicly accessible can't be found with a general Matrix Search) (Also, they list time frames, and "search the whole Matrix in 1 minute" doesn't seem to be in the right ballpark.)

QUOTE
In practical terms, the decker starts with a general Matrix search…

Yes, I assure you, I understand the principle. I was hoping for quotes with specific examples. I'm afraid, given what I've seen so far in this thread, I'm simply not ready to take your interpretations of example fiction at face value. If you don't care to dig up the quotes, though, that's quite all right.

QUOTE
Point one: It makes it easier. And gives it a veneer of legality.

Ah, so you stand by your post 49? Once they have Joe User's SIN, you still think they can use that alone to access his medical info, no problem? They merely ask him to transmit it as a kind of courtesy? Well, let no one doubt your commitment.

QUOTE
Point two: I have no idea what a fiber optic cable has to do with anything.

The quote discusses how someone might transmit responses to these requests (for bank info, medical info, etc.) in a secure way. They suggest that the data will naturally be encrypted, and might also, for security purposes, "be transmitted at a lower Signal rating, via a short-range, line-of-sight infrared beam connection, or by physically linking the commlink to a terminal and transmitting by fiberoptic cable."

Now, interesting question, if all this data is easily accessible by anyone, why would you bother doing all this? Again, is it merely a matter of appearances? There's a certain Old World charm to whipping out the old fiberoptic cable?

And when they explicitly say that people do this for security purposes, what do they actually mean?

QUOTE
Well, since I just made a big deal about reposting points instead of confusing cross-references, why not?

As a practical matter, you haven't posted any of these examples in this thread, as far as I can tell, so it would be quite difficult for you to post links to them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

In any case, there seem to have been some changes made between 4e and 5e. Regarding Ms. Bitsy, in 5e, I'm not sure that they ever say that operating devices in hidden mode is illegal or prohibited anywhere. In any case, that example doesn't seem to speak to any point of disagreement between us.

Regarding your second example, it seems to be sadly a bit short of details regarding what exactly needs to be broadcast. As to the idea that anyone with something to hide is up to no good, if that was the case in 4.x, that's been explicitly changed for 5e. The default rule is for people to have protected folders on their commlink that they use to store things they want to keep private. And, "most people keep all of their files in a protected folder."

QUOTE
I admit I'm weak on the SR5 mark rules, they're very confusing, but do you have a page reference saying that you must have a cyberdeck, or that it's dangerous? The one paragraph on marks I could find says the exact opposite:

This has been well covered by others, but: You can choose to invite anyone you'd like to place a mark on you legitimately. Private citizens inviting others to mark them does not appear to be a common occurrence however. If someone wants to get a mark on you without your express invitation, they'll need to engage in Attack or Sleaze actions.
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Bogert
post Jan 22 2015, 08:29 PM
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QUOTE (Cain @ Jan 22 2015, 01:35 PM) *
No, no, no. You keep coming back to this, and it's nowhere near my point.

My point is that there's a "staggering" amount of information on you out there, all public, all easily accessed if you spend the time to look for it. Your counter-point is that it isn't easy to access, because it''s not all filed in one place.
emphasis added
I'm sorry if I've stated my position in a confusing way. To clarify, my counter-point is that this information is not public. It is not easy to access, because the people that record and store it make it their business to prevent others from accessing it.

(It is also not easy to know which databases have information on people in the first place, but this is a consequence of that the fact that the information in the databases is protected. If it were not protected, it could be indexed by search engines, would therefore become very easy to locate.)

QUOTE
You seem to be hung up on the idea that everyday information in Shadowrun is private. It is not. People are looking at your records all the time, today; and the shadowrun fluff indicates it's only worse.

Not private, per se. But not public either. Stuffer Shack, and as a result, Aztechnology, knows that I enjoy Nuke-It burritos. If I work for Renraku and bank with Renraku Financial Services, I bet Renraku knows. But does Shiawase know that I enjoy Nuke-It burritos? Just by looking at my SIN, is it easy for John Q. Hacker to find out that I like Nuke-It burritos? This is where we disagree. You have not, as yet, produced any evidence that I'm wrong about this.

QUOTE
No, the point is *there is no app for that*.

Why do you think this is the case?

QUOTE
Your commlink has to broadcast your SIN, and in some cases, your financial information, just to go to the mall.

I remain unconvinced that you broadcast any financial information of any kind while in the mall. The quote you provided suggests that if people want my financial information, they ask me for it, and I can choose to send it to them if I care to. Based on the quote, if I do decide to send it, I typically do so in a secure way.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jan 22 2015, 09:12 PM
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QUOTE (Redjack @ Jan 22 2015, 12:54 PM) *
I was generally under the impression that hosts would invite marks rather than asking you to accept a mark; the library example comes to mind.


Inviting you to accept and Asking you to Accept are, for all intents and purposes, the same thing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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post Jan 22 2015, 09:27 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jan 22 2015, 03:12 PM) *
Inviting you to accept and Asking you to Accept are, for all intents and purposes, the same thing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Here, I think Redjack is getting at the fact that the library is the one Inviting Marks, so the library ends up getting marked by the patron.

The patron is not marked by the library. See the difference?

I don't know that there are any examples in the 5e corebook of users getting marked by hosts. (Other than hackers that fuck up hacking attempts.)
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jan 22 2015, 09:52 PM
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QUOTE (Bogert @ Jan 22 2015, 02:27 PM) *
Here, I think Redjack is getting at the fact that the library is the one Inviting Marks, so the library ends up getting marked by the patron.

The patron is not marked by the library. See the difference?

I don't know that there are any examples in the 5e corebook of users getting marked by hosts. (Other than hackers that fuck up hacking attempts.)


Ahh... thanks for clarification.
I was looking at it as the device Inviting the Mark. I Invite you to Mark the Library System is no different than me Asking you to Mark the Library System.
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