[SR5][ANH] Insect Spirits, Hardened armor 12? |
[SR5][ANH] Insect Spirits, Hardened armor 12? |
May 6 2015, 01:47 PM
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#1
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Moving Target Group: Validating Posts: 186 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Copenhagen, Denmark Member No.: 911 |
Hi,
tonight the players are going to encounter a regular security guard turned true form insect spirit. Insect Spirits are created with the Inhibition-power (Street Grimoire 196). A flesh form has Immunity To Normal Weapons (SR5 397). Immunity to normal weapons gives Essence (x2) Hardened Armor. My template for the security guard is the Corporate Security Guy (SR5 382) - he has Essence 6 and an Armor Jacket rating 12. Essence 6 means Hardened Armor 12. Does this stack with his Armor Jacket? Personally I'd say yes as one is physical armor and the other is a magic "forcefield". If so, how does is stack? Armor 24 (12+12) whereof 12 is hardened? A. |
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May 6 2015, 02:09 PM
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#2
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,893 Joined: 8-August 13 From: New Jersey , USA Member No.: 140,076 |
Hi, tonight the players are going to encounter a regular security guard turned true form insect spirit. Insect Spirits are created with the Inhibition-power (Street Grimoire 196). A flesh form has Immunity To Normal Weapons (SR5 397). Immunity to normal weapons gives Essence (x2) Hardened Armor. My template for the security guard is the Corporate Security Guy (SR5 382) - he has Essence 6 and an Armor Jacket rating 12. Essence 6 means Hardened Armor 12. Does this stack with his Armor Jacket? Personally I'd say yes as one is physical armor and the other is a magic "forcefield". If so, how does is stack? Armor 24 (12+12) whereof 12 is hardened? A. Since the Armor spell stacks with regular armor, it isn't a stretch to assume that Immunity to Normal Weapons stacks as well. If you assume that it does stack, then yes, the guard would roll 24 dice, any attack with a modified damage value of 12 or less simply bounces off, and he gets 6 automatic successes against the damage. (Obviously those numbers are modified by AP) |
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May 6 2015, 02:27 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Validating Posts: 186 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Copenhagen, Denmark Member No.: 911 |
Crazy - especially as it isn't dependent on the force of the insect spirit. Even Force 1 insect spirits will have this protection.
Well, I can foresee a group of runners getting their asses handed to themselves in old-fashioned melee combat tonight. If anything, it's a good Call For Action for a scenario. A. |
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May 6 2015, 05:27 PM
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#4
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-August 09 From: Vancouver, Canada Member No.: 17,538 |
You should use the spirit's essence, not the guard's. With Inhabitation, the spirit can enhance (depending on type) all the guard's physical stats and overwrites his mental and special stats. If it is a force 6 spirit, then it has 6 essence and 12 hardened armour. If it is a force 4 spirit then it has a 4 essence and 8 hardened armour, not 12. This is the way spirit Immunity to Normal Weapons has always been handled.
EDIT: I note you say the guard is turned True Form and then latter talk about Flesh Form. These are very different things. The True Form insect will look like a giant insect of whatever type, not a guard, human or otherwise and the guard will have been destroyed completely. Basically use the stats of the spirit alone. If it is Flesh Form then it looks like the guard only with the bug doing the driving. It will have the knowledge and skills of both. The point of clarifying this is that the True Form won't be wearing external armour. No one makes size XXXXL mosquito shaped armour jackets. Flesh Forms also have some slightly different powers and don't get the attribute boosts that a Hybrid Form or True Form might. |
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May 7 2015, 05:42 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Validating Posts: 186 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Copenhagen, Denmark Member No.: 911 |
Sorry about mixing up the trueform & fleshform spirits - it was unprecise.
I - of course - meant a fleshform. I think your idea about usiing the spirits essence makes a lot of sense. Force becomees relevant and after all, the magic part of the merge is coming from the summoned spirit. A. |
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May 8 2015, 03:32 AM
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#6
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Grumpy Old Ork Decker Group: Admin Posts: 3,794 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orwell, Ohio Member No.: 50 |
Heya Adhoc. Here's the ruling we came up with for Missions (And was done in conjunction with Jason Hardy and some of the freelancer pool):
QUOTE How does a critter with Hardened Armor or the Immunity power interact with regular armor? Mil-Spec hardened Armor? How does this interact with Armor Piercing modifiers?
Critters wearing armor of the same type as their natural ability will add the armor ratings together and Armor Piercing and other modifiers are factored in after. Critters with both Hardened Armor and regular armor will take the Armor Piercing modifiers off the Hardened Armor first, and then off the regular armor if there’s any AP modifiers left to carry over. |
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May 8 2015, 05:45 AM
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#7
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,403 Joined: 23-February 04 From: Honolulu, HI Member No.: 6,099 |
So be mindful of the consequences and potential outcomes. This will still likely be fine if its just one guard, it'll probably give sufficient "oh...crap" reactions when most of their stuff is at best doing Stun damage even when AP, and might encourage them to remember things like calling shots or the like. This gets a bit potentially easier if the group is magical heavy, less so if they're normal tech oriented. Afterall, with this level of armor, even what...vehicle/heavy rated Laser weaponry only has a -10 AP rating? Pistols with AP, is around -5? Assault rifles -6?
Again, I think its good with 1 guy, its always nice to keep pc's on their toes, "One guard? We got this." But even adding 1 or 2 more of those guards can quickly turn into a meatgrinder vs the PCs. |
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May 8 2015, 05:46 AM
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#8
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-August 09 From: Vancouver, Canada Member No.: 17,538 |
Heya Adhoc. Here's the ruling we came up with for Missions (And was done in conjunction with Jason Hardy and some of the freelancer pool): It's good you guys finalized this as a rule. We've always done it this way and I think most others do too but still, it's good to have it in some sort of official capacity. |
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May 8 2015, 07:38 AM
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#9
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Grumpy Old Ork Decker Group: Admin Posts: 3,794 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orwell, Ohio Member No.: 50 |
It's good you guys finalized this as a rule. We've always done it this way and I think most others do too but still, it's good to have it in some sort of official capacity. I was working on the Missions FAQ update to cover the new magic book, and since we're in Chicago, folks seemed to think this might eventually come up. I dunno why they might think that. *shrug* |
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May 8 2015, 11:04 AM
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#10
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Runner Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,039 Joined: 23-March 05 From: The heart of Rywfol Emwolb Industries Member No.: 7,216 |
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May 8 2015, 07:04 PM
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#11
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Grumpy Old Ork Decker Group: Admin Posts: 3,794 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orwell, Ohio Member No.: 50 |
So if you come across a sec guard holding a ScarBucks Soykaf with 12 sugars, watch out! SoyBucks, actually. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) |
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May 9 2015, 03:24 AM
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#12
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,575 Joined: 5-February 10 Member No.: 18,115 |
So what happens when a fleshform inhabits a guard wearing armor, and then Mungo knocks the fleshform unconscious and wears IT strapped on top of his own armor as a sort of (in)human shield?
~Umi |
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May 9 2015, 05:46 AM
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#13
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Grumpy Old Ork Decker Group: Admin Posts: 3,794 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orwell, Ohio Member No.: 50 |
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May 9 2015, 09:56 AM
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#14
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,575 Joined: 5-February 10 Member No.: 18,115 |
I'm not finding an entry for that in the RAW...
*adjusts bifocals* ~Umi |
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May 9 2015, 07:46 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 448 Joined: 13-August 13 Member No.: 142,622 |
I went from 3rd to 5th, though I have the 4th edition books...
why did the shuffle which insect form has immunity to normal weapons? |
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May 9 2015, 08:16 PM
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#16
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,575 Joined: 5-February 10 Member No.: 18,115 |
In 4E, all forms of Inhabitation have ITNW. It's not specifically stated that True Forms do, but they're literally just spirits, and spirits have ITNW by default.
~Umi |
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May 9 2015, 08:42 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 448 Joined: 13-August 13 Member No.: 142,622 |
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May 9 2015, 09:56 PM
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#18
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Runner Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,039 Joined: 23-March 05 From: The heart of Rywfol Emwolb Industries Member No.: 7,216 |
Where does it state that all spirits have ITNW? If you mean regular spirits pg 296 in 4thEd 20thAni has the Materialization power listing as follows: QUOTE Materialization Type: P • Action: Complex • Range: Self • Duration: Sustained Certain astral critters are capable of projecting themselves into the material world, thus allowing them to interact with physical beings. When materialized, critters may affect physical targets. Additionally, materialized critters gain Immunity to Normal Weapons. So ItNW is not listed directly as a power for spirits as the ItNW only applies when they are materialized on the physical plane and thus a subpower resulting from the Materialization power. Street Magic picks up from here on pg100 in the side bar on Insect Merges: QUOTE True Form When a spirit inhabitation results in a true form, the vessel is destroyed or consumed during the merge and cannot be recovered. The spirit takes form on the astral plane and gains the powers of Astral Form and Materialization (see pp. 287 and 289, SR4). A true form spirit bares no resemblance to the original host vessel and has the skills, attributes, and knowledge of the spirit alone. A true form spirit can persist in the astral plane and/or physical world indefinitely without needing ties to a conjurer or a spirit formula. Once disrupted, however, the spirit requires a new vessel to inhabit before it can return. So again, as it has the Materialization power, when it materializes on the physical plane it will have ItNW. oooh,.... twinkies... nomnomnomnom |
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May 9 2015, 10:10 PM
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#19
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,575 Joined: 5-February 10 Member No.: 18,115 |
Yes, sorry, didn't explain it fully. Inhabitation spirits can only "Materialize" via inhabiting something, and when they are True Forms, the physical host is fully consumed, leaving only the spirit in a material form, which is where they get the ITNW.
~Umi |
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May 10 2015, 12:33 AM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 448 Joined: 13-August 13 Member No.: 142,622 |
@Sendez my bad...I didn't process the 4e in your quote...I thought you meant all spirits in 5e.
My bad. That's 2 'my bad' (well three now) and I think that should cover my embarrassment. |
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May 10 2015, 01:12 AM
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#21
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,575 Joined: 5-February 10 Member No.: 18,115 |
I am against embarassment over mistakes! Mistakes are inevitable! They are a natural outcome, one that cannot be avoided, and that should not be seen as shameful!
Break free from the tyranny of perfectionism! Be accepting of error where no harm is done! We are all imperfect, and we shouldn't be consumed with guilt or anxiety for want of the impossible ideal of perfection! So chin up, stick out your chest, and say out loud, "I messed up, but that's okay!". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ~Umi |
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May 10 2015, 06:25 AM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 132 Joined: 3-May 15 Member No.: 194,157 |
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May 10 2015, 06:58 AM
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#23
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,575 Joined: 5-February 10 Member No.: 18,115 |
Uhh... okay? Not quite sure I've ever witnessed Bull behave aggresively in the least, but sure? I'm sure if Bull minded my being silly, I'd be the first to know.
That said, while I'm obviously playing the fool above for the sake of a hokey sort of joking farcicality, at the same time I'm not sure it's all that funny or in terribly good taste to make a joke that essentially just boils down to being insulting and calling someone else stupid... so... ~Umi |
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May 10 2015, 06:37 PM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 132 Joined: 3-May 15 Member No.: 194,157 |
Uhh... okay? Not quite sure I've ever witnessed Bull behave aggresively in the least, but sure? I'm sure if Bull minded my being silly, I'd be the first to know. That said, while I'm obviously playing the fool above for the sake of a hokey sort of joking farcicality, at the same time I'm not sure it's all that funny or in terribly good taste to make a joke that essentially just boils down to being insulting and calling someone else stupid... so... ~Umi Im sorry. Its an old signature of his from about 10 years ago, and Its how I remember him best. Edit: the idea of using an insect spirit as a human shield is one of those things that, back in the day, would result in Bull making you explode. |
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May 13 2015, 05:28 AM
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#25
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-August 09 From: Vancouver, Canada Member No.: 17,538 |
Guess Bull mellowed with age, like a fine wine or a particularly fragrant cheese or umm, maybe I should go eat before I get in trouble. These comparisons are getting worse.
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