Can cyberware have firewalls, like in SR4? augments could be hacked in the older edition as well, if they were wireless enabled, but the hacker had to hack through the firewall first

every Appliance with WiFi Online has a firewall, but you better buy a Rating 7 Comlink and slave all 'ware that has to be Online through that comlink.....
but there is NO 'Ware that absolutely has to be online (except a Comlink)

With a WiFiFree Dance
Medicineman

I never played SR4, so I can't compare it with SR5 (I hadn't played since second edition). But having run SR5 for over a year now, I've become pretty impressed with how well the the majority of the rules work out in practice. It may be that things that were good before are not good now, and vice versa, and there are for sure a few bits that are off (spirits are too strong, technomancers and aspected mages only seem to work out well for niche builds) -- but once we got a good handle on the rules we've found that the majority of contests make sense in how they play out. That is, our 'fluff' knowledge of the world and actual power levels and abilities to do things line up pretty well, and the rules create reasonable outcomes. Which in the end is the rules' most important job.

But I do admit that it took a lot of time reading and a lot of time playing before we really had a good flow going and came to trust the rules. The organization and writing of the rules do no favours in terms of selling the mechanics.

The rumors of wireless being a deathtrap are greatly exaggerated. Consider a device rating 6 commlink: you can slave up to 18 devices to it, and then those devices resist attacks with 12 dice. That's not bad for character generation. Especially when you consider that that an elite corp security decker is only throwing around 15 dice on his test, with a limit of around 8 or 9. Which doesn't seem too bad, right? Well, is he running silent? No? Then his icon is instantly noticable, and he can be attacked with ease by your team's Decker, who SHOULD be handling these things. He is running silent? -2 dice pool. Is the target on the public grid(and if you're trying to be sneaky and smart, you should be)? Another -2 dice pool.

So a Professional Rating 5, which is pretty hardcore, has less dice to throw at his target than his target has to resist. Sure, I can char gen someone who throws 6 attribute and 7 skill, +2 for relevant specialization, +2 for hot sim, or 17 dice(limited via deck). Sure, you can augment the character, but at best you get around 4 more dice.

Decker vs. Decker tends to be a bit easier, because Decks(and RCCs) have lower device ratings and attributes. A 5K Avalon gives you a dice pool of 12 to resist matrix attacks, but you won't get that sort of performance from a deck until you hit the CIY-720, running Encyption, with Firewall as it's highet attribute, for 345k. You see the difference?

Deck costs are a bit. Obscene. We've modified them by .7, and found that's a bit less of a problem.

But the idea that a decker is gonna hijack your cyber arm and strangle it with you is absolutely stupid, unless you were absolutely stupid and skimped on your commlink.

The primary problem isn't even bricking, it's the inability of not being instantly detected on corporate property, since commlinks have no Stealth attribute. Dongles help a bit, but are ridiculously expensive. Of course, since "are any devices running hidden on my property" is a valid question in Matrix Perception, so does anyone else.


Yeah, and given that corp deckers operate outside their juristictions with impunity, you now need a decker to nanny you 24/7. Happy downtime.

As regards to pay, I wonder what kind of runs ya'll are throwing your players way.

a current run I have cooked up is going to pay out 24k a piece. That's not a LOT of money, but four or five of those runs, and you can buy something decent. And that's a mild one.

Really BIG jobs, I would break down into multiple side missions, leading up to the final run. But that's me.

But I don't know why people think shadowrunners are supposed to be millionaires.

I'm not sure that's how it works. I don't have Data Trails, but just being physically present on corporate property doesn't instantly expose you. If you are out on the grid, then you have to be within 100m of the Decker, and he has to search for hidden icons. That doesn't instantly identify you, instead he now has to do an opposed test with you(granted, commlinks don't come with Sleaze, so it's a bit one sided) to identify you, and if there are multiple hidden icons, then it's random.

Wanna mess with the spider? Buy 10 throwaway commlinks, and toss them out around you. Thats a thousand bucks, and it gives you 1 in 11 odds of being found immediately. If everybody in the group does that, then you just created a whole bunch of white noise to dig through.

Now, if you are on the PUBLIC grid, which you should be, they have a -2 dice pool to search for you. Which makes sense: the public grid is everywhere, and a lot of meaningless bullcrap, like cheap snackfood rfids and aros are probably on the public grid.

Further, if you are actively trying to infiltrate some place, then I imagine you are moving slowly and stealthily, which means you should be Matrix Full Defense anyway, if you're REALLY that concerned about matrix detection. That makes detection a bit harder, depending on your willpower. Generally, I only trust fairly willful, smart and disciplined people to run with me, but, that's me. I think our group averages around 5 willpower(my rigger actually drags it down, because he covers too many bases) and Logic around 4.5. So that's easily around 9 dice, vs x - 2 or x - 4. It's not really an uneven contest. And the spider needs to be within 100m of you. Which is why I love area and directional jammers: if you can figure out his rough location, you shut him down, period. I mean, sure an "elite" security decker will detect you. But most security deckers arn't elite. I think 10-12 reflects an "average" security decker.

If you are in the host? Well, things get different. But a commlink can't access a host illicitly, it has to have permission. Unless running a dongle(I'm not sure how the dongles work exactly, but we've also used programs on commlinks for a while, and found it didn't break anything). But basically, if you are on a host you are either a legitimate user(no hiding needed!) or hacking.




If I go to sleep while logged into a host, and leave my commlink running, sure. If I log out of any hosts I am on and turn off my commlink, then... I am good. Even if all I do is turn it to run silent, then the decker has to be within 100m of me. If they've gotten that close to me, then I have a problem.

Furthermore, I make it a habit to have multiple commlinks and identities.

One is my Legend, and it has the best fake ID I can get. It's my legitimate cover in the world. When I go out and do "civilian" things, it's my Commlink. It never intersects with my clandestine activities, ever. The Legend is almost never running silent. But I leave the Legend at home when on runs(ALIBI!)

Then there is the Working Visa: that's my default "criminal" commlink and ID, and it's what I use to talk to my team mates and contacts. For added security, split your contacts off, but that's up to you. Generally, it should be as secure as your Legend.

Then we have the Burners: cheap, disposable commlinks and IDs.

So in case the corp security measures were designed by a lobotomized moron (and allow hidden mode), the decker is grossly incompetent (never checking for hidden icons), and the corp's IT security department can only afford Radio Shack decks, you have a certain chance.


Uh huh. So instead of a quick, targeted approach, you suggest sneakily wandering the entire building and setting up distractions, assuming that the sec-decker never does checks in the one hour this will take you (and assuming the guards are blind and deaf).


Given there is reception. Also, "Any devices running on public grid present?" also is a valid Matrix Perception query.


If the decker's incompetent and has crap hardware because a one-time investment of 500K is too much to ask to protect MacGuffin-Tech's R&D facility ... plus, you have to do this twice, unless the decker really never thought about Programs.

All of this also assumes spiders are always working without backup or any kind of contingency plans.

As for downtime: none of this will help you if you are traced in any way, and a corp decker decides to roast you, or just follow you around. It's like with mages, except there are no anti-decker wards, they can cast mana combat spells from astral space, and the sums to become one are negligible for a corp, syndicate or similar entity. Plus, any mundane can become one with a handful of Karma and some strategic implants.

Again, difference between being in a host, and being in physical proximity to a host. I can walk into stuffer shack without logging into it's host. I probably cant buy anything unless I use certified cred. But if I am sneaking into some secure facility, I don't want to be on it's host(unless I am spoofing the identity of some legitimate user, which is a valid technique), so I stay on the public grid.




C'mon. Really. when you insert on the roof top, you toss out a burner in a dark corner or down a vent. When you go pas a bathroom or trashcan, toss a burner. Toss a burner down a hallway. This isn't hard. Use drones. Heck, we've used devil rats with commlinks taped to them before.



"There are currently 15,247 devices operating on the public grid within 100m" is a perfectly valid response. Now me, as a GM, I wouldn't include hidden devices in that, because that wasn't the question asked. Now, a good decker can ask lots of questions, but there's probably a LOT of questions they are being forced to ask. I mean, do you think MCT doesn't have it's own deckers trying to break into Renraku files?




I don't assume that a band of half witted meth addicts are breaking into a secret research facility. I assume that a group of disciplined, intelligent, cunning, skilled and talented guys are working as a team to penetrate defenses of a secure facility.



No, it doesn't.


Look, I don't know how you run your games. But I run mine assuming that one of the major problems with Matrix security is the sheer volume of matrix traffic, and verifying that it's legitimate. And that's a massively hard task: the United States has had a great deal of restricted information leaked, and StuxNet shut down Iran's nuclear plans for a while. That's what secure networks face today. In 2060? Security spiders have their hands full. And not every run is against the most secure target in the planet.

If I was going to make a super secret, very restricted site for research and design of my most important program? It's going to be under-ground, completely separated from the matrix. With a secure facility on top of it's access, and a very wide perimeter. Concentric rings of defense.

If a corp decker does get wise to you, and traces you? Yeah, you are fucked. But there are real and legitimate precautions you can take against that.

You do not have to be in the host, you have to be within reach (100 m radius) of any repeater the spider has access to.


Laying out breadcrumbs to your current position sure will help.


Hope the job pays well.


Well, if you want to drag a critter that'll eat through an armored vst, or several, with you ...

I mean, do you think MCT doesn't have it's own deckers trying to break into Renraku files?
It seems your GM is rather lenient there. Of course, since in SR5 you won'T get anywhwre without GM leniency, I guess that's to be expected.


... okay. Why. Because the corp prefers shitty grids with low security to their own grid? It is a nonsensical response unless you are checking in a Stuffer Shack in Central Puyallup.


No, I figure that's what they hire shadowrunners for.

... who will be severely outclassed by an equally competent security force through flawed rules and bad rules concepts.


... precisely where have rises of conscience of US spooks and the infiltration of a secret nuclear enrichment facility via infected data stick anything to do with internet traffic density? Nowhere, that's where.


Yup, nothing can't be cracked by social engineering except Skynet. But where does that connect to Matrix traffic?


I'd use an oil rig, personally, that lacks any sattelite or landline connectivity and is sufficiently far from any population center to have ordinary Matrix connection, but that's just me.


Only up to a point, really. Besides, corps do HumInt too.

It is a very good idea in concept and I agree it should be one you can use, however whenever someone brings this idea up on the other forum things it tends to get a very unfavourable response.

The first hitch is once he finds a couple of these, he is probably going to yank the alarm. One or two is probably just someone forgetting their personal gear, but the mini-swarm tends to flag that something is afoot.

Then the general response you run into is like, omg you are trying to break the game-how could you?!?

Right, because we just know when you are running a hostile op you are going to play by Queensbury rules or some such nonsense.

I agree wholeheartedly with the idea, I just suspect a lot of tables are going to nix it despite it being a perfectly good tactic.

I'd rather buy 20 Prepaid Comlinks for 20 ¥ a piece (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
better Odds, less cost

with a better,cheaper Dance
Medicineman

Hell, if you are going that route, just pick up a hundred RFID tags. Same effect, far more bang for your buck. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Do what? You're going to have to cite the rules there brosefus. We are given a few examples of Deckers, and they throw around 14ish dice. I therefore assume that "average" security isn't that good. there is absolutely zero reason to think that starting level characters are going to be facing the best security ever. I mean, are all the security guards




You're right! There have never been any internet attacks against the US. And the point of StuxNet is that with enough traffic, whether physical or not, a secure site can be infiltrated.




It's a basic rule of security: the more traffic, the more security breaches.



Really? In addition to the difficulty of supplying your workers, and the additional safety hazards, you're not really isolated, and will need a dedicated naval presence to secure it. You're also extremely vulnerable to water spirits and astral infiltration. You are again, isolated, so reinforcements are a long distance away.



Everything works, up to a point. The whole reason we play this game is because shadowrunners are masters of brinksmanship.

When starting Player Characters can throw upwards of 20 Dice, I do not assume that the Security Deckers of Major Megacorps are throwing 14 dice. Sorry. *shrug*

I apologize for my thread bringing up so many arguments -_-

We're also given Archetypes that don't work according to the rules. If you disregard either and look into the rules and the world, you arrive at different conclusions.


The leaks about various doings of the US secret services have not been from foreign intelligence services, but their own people wondering whether they, this time, are the baddies. Stuxnet was brought into the Iranian plant by an infiltrator. Internet traffic density played no role in either incident.


Sure. But that's not the be-all end-all to security, nor do any of the incidents you brought up as an example have this as the cause.


Sure. Still beats paying half an arcology in costs for nonsense like Umbrella's underground vault labs. Besides, cutting it loose is easier too - and far cheaper. Safety depends on additional conditions and applies to underground facilities too, btw.


The problem is, in it's quest for grimdarkness and darker and edgier world building, SR5 made that point too close to the start for a viable game where not everything only works despite everyone's sense on the basis of GM handwaivium.

Seem to me that some people are working under the assumption of the game being for the blackest of black trenchcoats and sure it's a gameplay style a lot of people enjoy.
Seem to me that under those conditions the game is very open for exploitation and gm death traps.
But judging it more from a middle of the road kind of position, not utterly black trenchcoat where you eat paranoia for breakfast and every contingency has contingencies nor completely pink mohawk where you ride into the middle of an azzie pyramid on an overgrown hell hound. Does the game mechanics actually do what they are intended to do? or is the system itself broken?

It is a mess of rules interacting in weird ways (for instance, troll reduction lets you summon more spirits), sometimes the rules are overcomplex (called shots), sometimes too abstract (see vehicle speed), and sometimes you come onto nuggets of WTF, like the question of what happens when you unplug someone on a deep Matrix quest (the rules are silent on this scenario), or a tactical network that ostensibly is for civilian sports teams, costs half a million and will give only minimal boni (the hell CGL, where do these prices come from?).

Those are but a few random examples. The system is littered with them. It's not unplayable, but a good step backwards from

The problem with SR5 is that it is not SR4, or SR3, or SR2, or SR1.

Otherwise it is Shadowrun and it works as well as any other edition. Just differently.

From my direct interaction with a hundred+ or so people I have played SR5 with over the previous couple of years one of the top comments regarding editions is that SR5 is still Shadowrunny.

Most security deckers will be operating on the Site Host. Not scanning the open Matrix Grid around the Site itself.

Well, yes. Shadowrunnyness lives and dies with fluff, and while there has been sketchiness, there have also been excellent pieces, such as the newest novel (which I read during most of the night yesterday, and it's quite fantastic). That part of the setting generally hasn't been as unfortunately handled as rules have, though not everyone is happy with the CFD plotline.

But I can enjoy fluff while playing in any edition. SR5 doesn't offer me very much to switch from 4th, rules-wise.

There's nothing to be sorry for. Hashing out rules and discussing how we run the game are what this forum is for, and it's been a pretty civil discussion.



Millionaires? Not sure I'd go that far. But there is a bit of a disconnect between the monetary resources that a starting street samurai, rigger, or decker requires, and how much the rules have them making afterwards. Your rules sound reasonable; the book's, much less so.



Overall:
SR5 is pretty balanced, mechanically, but they made some options all but unplayable by over-nerfing them (SURGE is a joke now, and technomancers got hit pretty hard too), and they have added all kinds of needless hindrances such as bricking, higher background count, and limits, which do nothing but suck fun from the game. Both the rules and the fluff suffer from truly horrendous editing, which has improved ever so slightly, but is still a long way from acceptable.

Well, the the problem with that line of thinking is that the highest attainable base dicepool appears to hover around 18(6 in attribute, 12 in skill), not counting specilizations or gear. The most talented int he world may get 20 dice from attribute and skill, and augmentations can push that 4 higher. Thats the base line for "best in the world". So starting characters with 18 or 20 dice are not "average" people. They are generally statistical outliers.

So yeah, an "average" corp decker probably throws around 12 to 14 dice. And thats a pretty high "average".

Corp spiders have all sorts of advantages, not related to skill or dice pool. No overwatch is a big one. Being able to operate in a host with IC that are friendly. Having the ability to call for copious back up on the matrix.

Its not that your average corp decker tosses 20 dice back at you, its that he can send a message and get twenty more guys to cover his ass.