Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: SR4 v SR5
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2, 3
AlyW
I've a fair amount of exp. playing SR4, and have never played SR5. I am currently working my way through the SR5 core book, albeit slowly due to time constraints. So perhaps, could someone here give me a super-brief primer on what the big changes (if any?) between the two editions are?
Medicineman
QUOTE (AlyW @ Jul 11 2015, 04:54 PM) *
I've a fair amount of exp. playing SR4, and have never played SR5. I am currently working my way through the SR5 core book, albeit slowly due to time constraints. So perhaps, could someone here give me a super-brief primer on what the big changes (if any?) between the two editions are?

big Differences ?
1)
The Matrix
2)
WiFi Bonus on lots of Things that make no Sense (only to lure the Chars into getting Wireless)
3)
Skills go now up to 12 ( but not for starting Chars , they're stuck to 6 maximum)
4)
'ware is fucking expensive now ( up to 10x as expensive ) especially Ini-raising 'ware
5)
Limits everywhere
6)
Vehicle Rules are different
7)
Initiative is now like SR3
8 )
Hackers need Decks now and thus are called Decker (like SR3 ,also fucking expensive like in SR3, You'd better not loose it or you might as well make a new Char)
9)
TM's have turned into redhaired, freckled Stepkids
10)
You can attack only once per Iniphase
( Shooting in SA is still a simple action and you still have 2 simple actions per Iniphase but You can Attack only once !)
11)
Base Char Creation is the Priority system (similar to SR3) there is a Karma Creation in Run Faster and the Sum-To-Ten (my favorite System in SR5 now. More Flexible than Prio System and the Chars are generally a bit better than with the Karma System.) but no more BP-System !

But thats all !
That's the main difference
(some minor Points like Trolls are just as fast as Dwarfes now and the Movement Rules are now messed up
or SR5 misses most of the Weapon Mod Rules or extended Lifestyle Rules)
the rest is nearly Identical

Hough!
Medicineman
hermit
1a) Hackers can now hack your things that they explode and burn. ALL THE THINGS, including cyberware. Unless you do not want WiFi boni.

2a) Without WiFi boni, a lot of items, such as smartlinks, are effectively worthless to have.

3a) ... but your successes are now capped by Limits derived from your attributes.

4a) ... and there's a new cyberware class called gammaware, which, greek alphabet be damned, is better than deltaware. It's also more expensive, but since delta is less expensive now, that kinda evens it out.

5) SR5 is SR4 that tries to be SR3.

6a) Most importantly, speed has been reduced to a flat number instead of m/combat turn. This is important for vehicle Limits, and since VCRs boost that, your sports car may accelerate way beyond the speed of sound now.

8a) With Data Trails (this editions Unwired) you can still hack with a commlink, kinda, but it's prohibitively expensive too. We're talking 200,000+

9a) An upcoming book has been announced that will kinda de-gimp them. We shall see.

10) A lot of equipment and qualities are missing for no good reason; converting characters may be very tough.
Abschalten
Stick with SR4, and backport the handful of things that SR5 actually improves.
Lionhearted
No love for SR5 I see, god I barely touched my SR4 books in years but its good knowing its not worth dolling out for the new edition.
Did they improve karma gen btw? after playing SRR and Dragonfall (the reason I returned to this board really) I find the SR4 system needlessly restrictive and overly costly
Glyph
Karmagen (called Point Buy in SR5) is more restrictive and costly than the old version, with characters typically being more fine-tuned but significantly weaker than Priority builds.

My biggest pet peeve is that the costs for metavariants are completely different than they are in Priority. One example - elves cost 40 Karma, while dryads cost 90 karma; in Priority, they are exactly the same (and Priority has a mechanism of certain metatypes having an extra Karma cost to play them - so there is a mechanic they could have used if they thought dryads needed to be more expensive).
Lionhearted
Wasnt always the benefit of karmagen over bp that you could spread out more while specialising was more expensive? seems counterintuitive... Unless Im misintepretating you
Glyph
Theoretically, this was true, but Karmagen gave you enough points that even in its most stringent iteration (750 Karma with errata of paying the metatype BP cost in Karma and using the x 5 multiplier for skills), it usually gave you better value than build points even for optimized builds (meaning some high skills/Attributes), while for generalists, it was massively better than build points.

The SR5 version doesn't keep up with Priority nearly as well. The problem is that things have been raised across the board - you don't have that balloon payment to hard-max that one Attribute, starting with a Magic of 6 and/or an Edge of 5-7 is fairly common, and you can have multiple skills of 6. All of these things cost a lot when you use the exponential costs of Karma - even specializations are expensive, costing 7 rather than 2 Karma. It costs 200 Karma to maximize your resources.

All of these things add up to the point where 800 points is simply not the equivalent of a Priority build. You can make viable characters (although some things, such as trolls or augmented characters, have a tougher time), but it is only worth it if you have a really finicky build.

The one advantage it does have over Priority is that it is much, much more scalable. Just raise or lower the Karma amounts and there you are. SR5 does try to have some "high-powered" or "low-powered" variants to Priority, but they... don't work very well.
Medicineman
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Jul 11 2015, 08:15 PM) *
No love for SR5 I see, god I barely touched my SR4 books in years but its good knowing its not worth dolling out for the new edition.
Did they improve karma gen btw? after playing SRR and Dragonfall (the reason I returned to this board really) I find the SR4 system needlessly restrictive and overly costly

Hey , MY POST was just a little Biased, not full of Hate wink.gif

To be Fair,
There IS Love from My Side (Well rather fondness, not really Love wink.gif )
The Devs from CGL did try to remove some Mistakes but that didn't work out.
f.E.
the CGL Guys realized that a Skill Level of 6 (in 4A) is not enough, especially when a Char can start with Skills of 5 or 6
so they raised the Levels.
That is a superb Idea !
BUT (!)
A Skill Level of 12 is too high, it can hardly be achieved by Chars (especially because they reduced the Karma Rewards for Runs which is another minor Problem)
Now only the NPCs can make use of the higher skillrating and the higher pools,
You find average (Prof 3 ) NPCs with Pools of 12,15 or more Dice. Something a PC (and his Player) can only dream of !
A raising to 9 (10 with exceptional talent) would have been perfect,
for PCs there would still be room to grow but the "Top is in Reach"
Another Example:
The Devs from CGL recognized that Direct Combat Spells is a mighty tool for a Mage and if overcast most often a One-Shot-Kill for the Mage
So they Nerfed direct Combats spell which is ok,
BUT (!)
Now the only way to effectively use direct Combat Spells is to overcast them (something CGL wanted to Prevent IIRC)
AND Mages have to overcast severall times to down an Enemy
so the contrary of what CGL intended happens now
it would've been much simpler toreduce the Base Damage of direct Combat Spells to 1/2 Spell Rating and Indirect Combat Spells to Full Spell Rating
(Simple and Clean ! )
but they didn't and it seems that enough players complained so CGL introduced a Pos Qual (Feel my hot Wrath....?)
to raise the Damage of direct Combat Spells again ( but they didn't correct the fact that Combat Mages Still overcast regularly.... ohplease.gif sarcastic.gif
Next example would be :
"Thou shall Attack only once per Inipass !" ohplease.gif sarcastic.gif
CGL Idea was (If I interpret it correctly) to shorten the Combat BUT they Violate the Ingame Reality so hard becuase they Introduced Boardgame Rules into a RPG which is inherently bad !
( You can Shoot twice per Inipass, but You can Attack only once....)

Some of CGL's Ideas are OK, but the execution (or implementation into the Rules) failed.
Some Issues are even worse, but I don't want to spoil my Sunday by listing all that is bad & wrong (and no Fun) with SR5.
My Final Tip:
Mix the best from SR4A with the best from SR5 and make Your own Game (I do so with a Campaign in 2055 )

with a Sunday's Dance
Medicineman
Medicineman
@ Karmagen
You get 800 Karma
If you deduct the Higher Racial Costs you can create Chars that can be compared to the 750 Karma from SR4A
BUT (!)
with Priority (or Sum to Ten) Your Chars compare to 900 or 950 Karma or even 1000 from SR4A !
Especially High Attributes (Prime example is the Troll Melee Adept with STR10) can only be done with Prio or Sum-->10
If you want to make a Troll Adept with Karmasystem it'll become a One-Trick-Pony which lacks so many othere Skills, Abilities,Etc that he's no fun to Play !
The different Char Creation Methods are NOT (!!) balanced !
and forget about the Lifepath System ohplease.gif
Just forget it wink.gif
It's really not worth writing down everything that's wrong with it
(not on a Sunday)

HougH!
Medicineman
AlyW
Blergh. Sounds like I'd be overall happier sticking to SR4 then. Still, I'm looking to join an SR5 game on this board. The increased cost to 'ware already bugs me cause I love my 'wares. I like the idea of bringing back Decks though.

Will have to see how things go, I guess.
Lionhearted
Didnt they playtest any of this?
SpellBinder
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Jul 12 2015, 12:10 AM) *
Didnt they playtest any of this?
That's what the product release was. wink.gif
hermit
QUOTE
Didnt they playtest any of this?

Playtesting happened (and it's easy to get into; just write Jason an email). I'm not at liberty to go into details unfortunately. But the problem wasn't not playtesting.
Medicineman
QUOTE (AlyW @ Jul 12 2015, 01:06 AM) *
Blergh. Sounds like I'd be overall happier sticking to SR4 then. Still, I'm looking to join an SR5 game on this board. The increased cost to 'ware already bugs me cause I love my 'wares. I like the idea of bringing back Decks though.

Will have to see how things go, I guess.


ever thought about a Decker Adept ?
( You could Use Your Powerpoints to boost your Decking Skills or combine it with Cat Burglar or Traceur)


QUOTE
Didnt they playtest any of this?

From what I read in the US Forums CGL doesn't listen to the Playtester...
or forgets to correct some of the Issues that the Playtester report

with a combination's Dance
Medicineman
Glyph
QUOTE (AlyW @ Jul 11 2015, 10:06 PM) *
Blergh. Sounds like I'd be overall happier sticking to SR4 then. Still, I'm looking to join an SR5 game on this board. The increased cost to 'ware already bugs me cause I love my 'wares. I like the idea of bringing back Decks though.

Will have to see how things go, I guess.


Augmentations are more expensive, but starting resources are higher, too. Some things have actually improved. To get the bad out of the way, it is generally better to stick to laser sights with wireless turned off rather than smarlinks, and to not combine the formerly-stackable wired reflexes and reaction enhancers. They both give "bonuses" (getting the +2 dice you got before in SR4, and having two augmentations the previously stacked still do so), but it is not worth the small but still present risk of getting bricked by a hacker, which can permanently damage augmentations. Also, you don't halve the lower of cyberware/bioware Essence costs any longer.

On the positive side, "used" 'ware is treated as its own grade now (so no more "used alphaware" crap any more), one which can be useful, since it has lower Availability (lots of builds with used muscle toner: 3). Cyberlimbs have much better rules than SR4, similar to the Augmentation rules, but even better since they simplified cyberlimb stats by only giving them Agility and Strength ratings, dropping the needless Body rating. Anything that gives a dice pool bonus is more expensive, but toughness-enhancing augmentations (bone lacing, orthoskin, etc.) is a lot cheaper. So while street samurai, like mages, have been nerfed in areas, they are still viable - you just need to revise your optimization strategies.


On decks - my main problem with them is that they make deckers too gear-dependent. If they lose their deck, they are suddenly all but useless at their main function. And good luck getting another one, if you compare the cost of a good deck with what they think a shadowrun should pay.
Moirdryd
Most of the Wireless silliness (especially with smartlinks etc) is easily avoided by either A) Simple House rule so it all works like it did before or B) Going RAW use the Internal Router from ChromeFlesh

I cannot contribute much to the 4v5 question as I've gone from 3rd to 5th with a few house rules rolled in (some are not so much House Rules and Rulings on a player action that I've written up to keep it consistent when people want to do the same thing, like my Encryption/Electronic Warfare stuff).
KCKitsune
QUOTE (Glyph @ Jul 12 2015, 12:08 AM) *
Theoretically, this was true, but Karmagen gave you enough points that even in its most stringent iteration (750 Karma with errata of paying the metatype BP cost in Karma and using the x 5 multiplier for skills), it usually gave you better value than build points even for optimized builds (meaning some high skills/Attributes), while for generalists, it was massively better than build points.


Off topic, but still relevant: With SR4A, what level or karma did you use for starting characters? What was a fair level as compared to BP


QUOTE (Glyph)
On decks - my main problem with them is that they make deckers too gear-dependent. If they lose their deck, they are suddenly all but useless at their main function. And good luck getting another one, if you compare the cost of a good deck with what they think a shadowrun should pay.


Now back on topic: I think every iteration of Shadowrun paid 'Runners way, Way, WAY too damn little! I mean considering what I'm hearing about a Run; you can make more money, be safer, have an easier time with it, and piss off the LEOs less by stealing cars! You're dealing with people who are regularly sporting 100,000+ nuyen.gif of augmentation/magic* gear. These people are PROFESSIONALS and the Johnson's paying them peanuts!

* == even technomancers should have some augmentation (Synaptic Booster level 1 and a datajack (for the offline storage capabilities at least).
SpellBinder
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Jul 12 2015, 06:52 AM) *
...

* == even technomancers should have some augmentation (Synaptic Booster level 1 and a datajack (for the offline storage capabilities at least).
If it's SR4 you don't even need a datajack. Arsenal, page 63, the Fingernail Data Storage. It's wirelessly accessible, is less than half the price of a Standard grade datajack, doesn't cost any Essence, and fools everyone on a casual look. On top of that there's nothing to say that it must be a fingernail. smokin.gif

As far as I can recall this little bit of gear has not yet been reprinted into SR5. Maybe it's too powerful, like the skinlink?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Jul 12 2015, 08:32 AM) *
If it's SR4 you don't even need a datajack. Arsenal, page 63, the Fingernail Data Storage. It's wirelessly accessible, is less than half the price of a Standard grade datajack, doesn't cost any Essence, and fools everyone on a casual look. On top of that there's nothing to say that it must be a fingernail. smokin.gif

As far as I can recall this little bit of gear has not yet been reprinted into SR5. Maybe it's too powerful, like the skinlink?


There was also Nanopaste Memory (Unwired, Page 200 - lasted for 24 hours)...
If one wanted to restore the availability of Fingernail Data Storage, it should not be a problem due to the massive and totally available Memory storage already in game.
hermit
But in SR5, Nanopaste memory will eat your soul, and what do you think happens when your fingernail is bricked? Ever seen what happens when you tape a firecracker to a finger and then explode it? Not pretty ...
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (hermit @ Jul 12 2015, 09:16 AM) *
But in SR5, Nanopaste memory will eat your soul, and what do you think happens when your fingernail is bricked? Ever seen what happens when you tape a firecracker to a finger and then explode it? Not pretty ...


smile.gif Too True. Though apparently, Nanoware was not quite the scare they made it out to be, since it was reintroduced almost in its entirety once again. Took a few weeks to work the bugs out, I guess. smile.gif
SpellBinder
QUOTE (hermit @ Jul 12 2015, 10:16 AM) *
But in SR5, Nanopaste memory will eat your soul, and what do you think happens when your fingernail is bricked? Ever seen what happens when you tape a firecracker to a finger and then explode it? Not pretty ...
Kinda begs the question to what really happens when your wired reflexes and reaction enhancers get bricked because you left the wireless open. Me, I'm of the opinion that you become a quadriplegic and a quivering mass of jello until the systems gets replaced, though a friend of mine feels that you just lose the cyberware benefits and can act as normal despite the fact that your replacement spinal cord is now a sparking, melting piece of slag (yes, I've told him about how spectacular the death of a bricked anything is).
hermit
That's gamism versus simulation, or "how video game logic do you want your game to be?"

Actually, even a whiff of vapors emitted from bricked brainware will kill you nearly instantly, if you go the realism route. But alas, Shadowrun 5 kowtows before video game logic. Me, I'd consider all bricking firmware damage, no explosions or anything.
Glyph
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Jul 12 2015, 05:52 AM) *
Off topic, but still relevant: With SR4A, what level or karma did you use for starting characters? What was a fair level as compared to BP

I considered the aforementioned version (750 Karma with errata of paying the metatype BP cost in Karma and using the x 5 multiplier for skills) to be the closest to balanced. Most characters were a bit over 400 BP, a few corner cases (such as trolls with high natural Body and Strength) were somewhat worse off, and generalists (of the low Attribute/low skill variety) were a lot better (which was still balanced, to me - I thought build points were far too punishing to generalist builds, which were already a suboptimal concept).

It's all but impossible to make them exactly balanced. One uses flat costs, and one uses exponential costs, so they will never match up completely.



QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Jul 12 2015, 05:52 AM) *
Now back on topic: I think every iteration of Shadowrun paid 'Runners way, Way, WAY too damn little! I mean considering what I'm hearing about a Run; you can make more money, be safer, have an easier time with it, and piss off the LEOs less by stealing cars! You're dealing with people who are regularly sporting 100,000+ nuyen.gif of augmentation/magic* gear. These people are PROFESSIONALS and the Johnson's paying them peanuts!

* == even technomancers should have some augmentation (Synaptic Booster level 1 and a datajack (for the offline storage capabilities at least).

I agree, but SR5 makes it worse by having actual rules for calculating run payments.
AlyW
Can cyberware have firewalls, like in SR4? augments could be hacked in the older edition as well, if they were wireless enabled, but the hacker had to hack through the firewall first
Medicineman
QUOTE (AlyW @ Jul 12 2015, 11:36 PM) *
Can cyberware have firewalls, like in SR4? augments could be hacked in the older edition as well, if they were wireless enabled, but the hacker had to hack through the firewall first

every Appliance with WiFi Online has a firewall, but you better buy a Rating 7 Comlink and slave all 'ware that has to be Online through that comlink.....
but there is NO 'Ware that absolutely has to be online (except a Comlink)

With a WiFiFree Dance
Medicineman
Beta
I never played SR4, so I can't compare it with SR5 (I hadn't played since second edition). But having run SR5 for over a year now, I've become pretty impressed with how well the the majority of the rules work out in practice. It may be that things that were good before are not good now, and vice versa, and there are for sure a few bits that are off (spirits are too strong, technomancers and aspected mages only seem to work out well for niche builds) -- but once we got a good handle on the rules we've found that the majority of contests make sense in how they play out. That is, our 'fluff' knowledge of the world and actual power levels and abilities to do things line up pretty well, and the rules create reasonable outcomes. Which in the end is the rules' most important job.

But I do admit that it took a lot of time reading and a lot of time playing before we really had a good flow going and came to trust the rules. The organization and writing of the rules do no favours in terms of selling the mechanics.
Wothanoz
The rumors of wireless being a deathtrap are greatly exaggerated. Consider a device rating 6 commlink: you can slave up to 18 devices to it, and then those devices resist attacks with 12 dice. That's not bad for character generation. Especially when you consider that that an elite corp security decker is only throwing around 15 dice on his test, with a limit of around 8 or 9. Which doesn't seem too bad, right? Well, is he running silent? No? Then his icon is instantly noticable, and he can be attacked with ease by your team's Decker, who SHOULD be handling these things. He is running silent? -2 dice pool. Is the target on the public grid(and if you're trying to be sneaky and smart, you should be)? Another -2 dice pool.

So a Professional Rating 5, which is pretty hardcore, has less dice to throw at his target than his target has to resist. Sure, I can char gen someone who throws 6 attribute and 7 skill, +2 for relevant specialization, +2 for hot sim, or 17 dice(limited via deck). Sure, you can augment the character, but at best you get around 4 more dice.

Decker vs. Decker tends to be a bit easier, because Decks(and RCCs) have lower device ratings and attributes. A 5K Avalon gives you a dice pool of 12 to resist matrix attacks, but you won't get that sort of performance from a deck until you hit the CIY-720, running Encyption, with Firewall as it's highet attribute, for 345k. You see the difference?

Deck costs are a bit. Obscene. We've modified them by .7, and found that's a bit less of a problem.

But the idea that a decker is gonna hijack your cyber arm and strangle it with you is absolutely stupid, unless you were absolutely stupid and skimped on your commlink.

hermit
QUOTE
The rumors of wireless being a deathtrap are greatly exaggerated. Consider a device rating 6 commlink: you can slave up to 18 devices to it, and then those devices resist attacks with 12 dice.

The primary problem isn't even bricking, it's the inability of not being instantly detected on corporate property, since commlinks have no Stealth attribute. Dongles help a bit, but are ridiculously expensive. Of course, since "are any devices running hidden on my property" is a valid question in Matrix Perception, so does anyone else.

QUOTE
Well, is he running silent? No? Then his icon is instantly noticable, and he can be attacked with ease by your team's Decker, who SHOULD be handling these things.

Yeah, and given that corp deckers operate outside their juristictions with impunity, you now need a decker to nanny you 24/7. Happy downtime.
Wothanoz
As regards to pay, I wonder what kind of runs ya'll are throwing your players way.

a current run I have cooked up is going to pay out 24k a piece. That's not a LOT of money, but four or five of those runs, and you can buy something decent. And that's a mild one.

Really BIG jobs, I would break down into multiple side missions, leading up to the final run. But that's me.

But I don't know why people think shadowrunners are supposed to be millionaires.
Wothanoz
QUOTE (hermit @ Jul 13 2015, 12:25 PM) *
The primary problem isn't even bricking, it's the inability of not being instantly detected on corporate property, since commlinks have no Stealth attribute. Dongles help a bit, but are ridiculously expensive. Of course, since "are any devices running hidden on my property" is a valid question in Matrix Perception, so does anyone else.


I'm not sure that's how it works. I don't have Data Trails, but just being physically present on corporate property doesn't instantly expose you. If you are out on the grid, then you have to be within 100m of the Decker, and he has to search for hidden icons. That doesn't instantly identify you, instead he now has to do an opposed test with you(granted, commlinks don't come with Sleaze, so it's a bit one sided) to identify you, and if there are multiple hidden icons, then it's random.

Wanna mess with the spider? Buy 10 throwaway commlinks, and toss them out around you. Thats a thousand bucks, and it gives you 1 in 11 odds of being found immediately. If everybody in the group does that, then you just created a whole bunch of white noise to dig through.

Now, if you are on the PUBLIC grid, which you should be, they have a -2 dice pool to search for you. Which makes sense: the public grid is everywhere, and a lot of meaningless bullcrap, like cheap snackfood rfids and aros are probably on the public grid.

Further, if you are actively trying to infiltrate some place, then I imagine you are moving slowly and stealthily, which means you should be Matrix Full Defense anyway, if you're REALLY that concerned about matrix detection. That makes detection a bit harder, depending on your willpower. Generally, I only trust fairly willful, smart and disciplined people to run with me, but, that's me. I think our group averages around 5 willpower(my rigger actually drags it down, because he covers too many bases) and Logic around 4.5. So that's easily around 9 dice, vs x - 2 or x - 4. It's not really an uneven contest. And the spider needs to be within 100m of you. Which is why I love area and directional jammers: if you can figure out his rough location, you shut him down, period. I mean, sure an "elite" security decker will detect you. But most security deckers arn't elite. I think 10-12 reflects an "average" security decker.

If you are in the host? Well, things get different. But a commlink can't access a host illicitly, it has to have permission. Unless running a dongle(I'm not sure how the dongles work exactly, but we've also used programs on commlinks for a while, and found it didn't break anything). But basically, if you are on a host you are either a legitimate user(no hiding needed!) or hacking.


QUOTE
Yeah, and given that corp deckers operate outside their juristictions with impunity, you now need a decker to nanny you 24/7. Happy downtime.


If I go to sleep while logged into a host, and leave my commlink running, sure. If I log out of any hosts I am on and turn off my commlink, then... I am good. Even if all I do is turn it to run silent, then the decker has to be within 100m of me. If they've gotten that close to me, then I have a problem.

Furthermore, I make it a habit to have multiple commlinks and identities.

One is my Legend, and it has the best fake ID I can get. It's my legitimate cover in the world. When I go out and do "civilian" things, it's my Commlink. It never intersects with my clandestine activities, ever. The Legend is almost never running silent. But I leave the Legend at home when on runs(ALIBI!)

Then there is the Working Visa: that's my default "criminal" commlink and ID, and it's what I use to talk to my team mates and contacts. For added security, split your contacts off, but that's up to you. Generally, it should be as secure as your Legend.

Then we have the Burners: cheap, disposable commlinks and IDs.
hermit
QUOTE
If you are out on the grid, then you have to be within 100m of the Decker, and he has to search for hidden icons. That doesn't instantly identify you, instead he now has to do an opposed test with you(granted, commlinks don't come with Sleaze, so it's a bit one sided) to identify you, and if there are multiple hidden icons, then it's random.

So in case the corp security measures were designed by a lobotomized moron (and allow hidden mode), the decker is grossly incompetent (never checking for hidden icons), and the corp's IT security department can only afford Radio Shack decks, you have a certain chance.

QUOTE
Wanna mess with the spider? Buy 10 throwaway commlinks, and toss them out around you. Thats a thousand bucks, and it gives you 1 in 11 odds of being found immediately. If everybody in the group does that, then you just created a whole bunch of white noise to dig through.

Uh huh. So instead of a quick, targeted approach, you suggest sneakily wandering the entire building and setting up distractions, assuming that the sec-decker never does checks in the one hour this will take you (and assuming the guards are blind and deaf).

QUOTE
Now, if you are on the PUBLIC grid, which you should be, they have a -2 dice pool to search for you. Which makes sense: the public grid is everywhere, and a lot of meaningless bullcrap, like cheap snackfood rfids and aros are probably on the public grid.

Given there is reception. Also, "Any devices running on public grid present?" also is a valid Matrix Perception query.

QUOTE
Further, if you are actively trying to infiltrate some place, then I imagine you are moving slowly and stealthily, which means you should be Matrix Full Defense anyway, if you're REALLY that concerned about matrix detection. That makes detection a bit harder, depending on your willpower. Generally, I only trust fairly willful, smart and disciplined people to run with me, but, that's me. I think our group averages around 5 willpower(my rigger actually drags it down, because he covers too many bases) and Logic around 4.5. So that's easily around 9 dice, vs x - 2 or x - 4. It's not really an uneven contest.

If the decker's incompetent and has crap hardware because a one-time investment of 500K is too much to ask to protect MacGuffin-Tech's R&D facility ... plus, you have to do this twice, unless the decker really never thought about Programs.

All of this also assumes spiders are always working without backup or any kind of contingency plans.

As for downtime: none of this will help you if you are traced in any way, and a corp decker decides to roast you, or just follow you around. It's like with mages, except there are no anti-decker wards, they can cast mana combat spells from astral space, and the sums to become one are negligible for a corp, syndicate or similar entity. Plus, any mundane can become one with a handful of Karma and some strategic implants.
Wothanoz
QUOTE (hermit @ Jul 13 2015, 01:40 PM) *
So in case the corp security measures were designed by a lobotomized moron (and allow hidden mode), the decker is grossly incompetent (never checking for hidden icons), and the corp's IT security department can only afford Radio Shack decks, you have a certain chance.



Again, difference between being in a host, and being in physical proximity to a host. I can walk into stuffer shack without logging into it's host. I probably cant buy anything unless I use certified cred. But if I am sneaking into some secure facility, I don't want to be on it's host(unless I am spoofing the identity of some legitimate user, which is a valid technique), so I stay on the public grid.


QUOTE
Uh huh. So instead of a quick, targeted approach, you suggest sneakily wandering the entire building and setting up distractions, assuming that the sec-decker never does checks in the one hour this will take you (and assuming the guards are blind and deaf).


C'mon. Really. when you insert on the roof top, you toss out a burner in a dark corner or down a vent. When you go pas a bathroom or trashcan, toss a burner. Toss a burner down a hallway. This isn't hard. Use drones. Heck, we've used devil rats with commlinks taped to them before.


QUOTE
Given there is reception. Also, "Any devices running on public grid present?" also is a valid Matrix Perception query.

"There are currently 15,247 devices operating on the public grid within 100m" is a perfectly valid response. Now me, as a GM, I wouldn't include hidden devices in that, because that wasn't the question asked. Now, a good decker can ask lots of questions, but there's probably a LOT of questions they are being forced to ask. I mean, do you think MCT doesn't have it's own deckers trying to break into Renraku files?


QUOTE
If the decker's incompetent and has crap hardware because a one-time investment of 500K is too much to ask to protect MacGuffin-Tech's R&D facility ... plus, you have to do this twice, unless the decker really never thought about Programs.


I don't assume that a band of half witted meth addicts are breaking into a secret research facility. I assume that a group of disciplined, intelligent, cunning, skilled and talented guys are working as a team to penetrate defenses of a secure facility.

QUOTE
All of this also assumes spiders are always working without backup or any kind of contingency plans.


No, it doesn't.


Look, I don't know how you run your games. But I run mine assuming that one of the major problems with Matrix security is the sheer volume of matrix traffic, and verifying that it's legitimate. And that's a massively hard task: the United States has had a great deal of restricted information leaked, and StuxNet shut down Iran's nuclear plans for a while. That's what secure networks face today. In 2060? Security spiders have their hands full. And not every run is against the most secure target in the planet.

If I was going to make a super secret, very restricted site for research and design of my most important program? It's going to be under-ground, completely separated from the matrix. With a secure facility on top of it's access, and a very wide perimeter. Concentric rings of defense.

If a corp decker does get wise to you, and traces you? Yeah, you are fucked. But there are real and legitimate precautions you can take against that.
hermit
QUOTE
But if I am sneaking into some secure facility, I don't want to be on it's host(unless I am spoofing the identity of some legitimate user, which is a valid technique), so I stay on the public grid.

You do not have to be in the host, you have to be within reach (100 m radius) of any repeater the spider has access to.

QUOTE
C'mon. Really. when you insert on the roof top, you toss out a burner in a dark corner or down a vent. When you go pas a bathroom or trashcan, toss a burner. Toss a burner down a hallway. This isn't hard.

Laying out breadcrumbs to your current position sure will help.

QUOTE
Use drones.

Hope the job pays well.

QUOTE
Heck, we've used devil rats with commlinks taped to them before.

Well, if you want to drag a critter that'll eat through an armored vst, or several, with you ...

I mean, do you think MCT doesn't have it's own deckers trying to break into Renraku files?
It seems your GM is rather lenient there. Of course, since in SR5 you won'T get anywhwre without GM leniency, I guess that's to be expected.

QUOTE
"There are currently 15,247 devices operating on the public grid within 100m" is a perfectly valid response.

... okay. Why. Because the corp prefers shitty grids with low security to their own grid? It is a nonsensical response unless you are checking in a Stuffer Shack in Central Puyallup.

QUOTE
I mean, do you think MCT doesn't have it's own deckers trying to break into Renraku files?

No, I figure that's what they hire shadowrunners for.

hermit
QUOTE
I assume that a group of disciplined, intelligent, cunning, skilled and talented guys are working as a team to penetrate defenses of a secure facility.

... who will be severely outclassed by an equally competent security force through flawed rules and bad rules concepts.

QUOTE
And that's a massively hard task: the United States has had a great deal of restricted information leaked, and StuxNet shut down Iran's nuclear plans for a while.

... precisely where have rises of conscience of US spooks and the infiltration of a secret nuclear enrichment facility via infected data stick anything to do with internet traffic density? Nowhere, that's where.

QUOTE
That's what secure networks face today.

Yup, nothing can't be cracked by social engineering except Skynet. But where does that connect to Matrix traffic?

QUOTE
If I was going to make a super secret, very restricted site for research and design of my most important program? It's going to be under-ground, completely separated from the matrix. With a secure facility on top of it's access, and a very wide perimeter. Concentric rings of defense.

I'd use an oil rig, personally, that lacks any sattelite or landline connectivity and is sufficiently far from any population center to have ordinary Matrix connection, but that's just me.

QUOTE
If a corp decker does get wise to you, and traces you? Yeah, you are fucked. But there are real and legitimate precautions you can take against that.

Only up to a point, really. Besides, corps do HumInt too.
Sendaz
QUOTE (Wothanoz @ Jul 13 2015, 02:21 PM) *
Wanna mess with the spider? Buy 10 throwaway commlinks, and toss them out around you. Thats a thousand bucks, and it gives you 1 in 11 odds of being found immediately. If everybody in the group does that, then you just created a whole bunch of white noise to dig through.

It is a very good idea in concept and I agree it should be one you can use, however whenever someone brings this idea up on the other forum things it tends to get a very unfavourable response.

The first hitch is once he finds a couple of these, he is probably going to yank the alarm. One or two is probably just someone forgetting their personal gear, but the mini-swarm tends to flag that something is afoot.

Then the general response you run into is like, omg you are trying to break the game-how could you?!?

Right, because we just know when you are running a hostile op you are going to play by Queensbury rules or some such nonsense.

I agree wholeheartedly with the idea, I just suspect a lot of tables are going to nix it despite it being a perfectly good tactic.



Medicineman
I'd rather buy 20 Prepaid Comlinks for 20 a piece wink.gif
better Odds, less cost

with a better,cheaper Dance
Medicineman
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Medicineman @ Jul 13 2015, 02:22 PM) *
I'd rather buy 20 Prepaid Comlinks for 20 a piece wink.gif
better Odds, less cost

with a better,cheaper Dance
Medicineman


Hell, if you are going that route, just pick up a hundred RFID tags. Same effect, far more bang for your buck. smile.gif
Wothanoz
QUOTE (hermit @ Jul 13 2015, 02:29 PM) *
... who will be severely outclassed by an equally competent security force through flawed rules and bad rules concepts.


Do what? You're going to have to cite the rules there brosefus. We are given a few examples of Deckers, and they throw around 14ish dice. I therefore assume that "average" security isn't that good. there is absolutely zero reason to think that starting level characters are going to be facing the best security ever. I mean, are all the security guards


QUOTE
... precisely where have rises of conscience of US spooks and the infiltration of a secret nuclear enrichment facility via infected data stick anything to do with internet traffic density? Nowhere, that's where.


You're right! There have never been any internet attacks against the US. And the point of StuxNet is that with enough traffic, whether physical or not, a secure site can be infiltrated.


QUOTE
Yup, nothing can't be cracked by social engineering except Skynet. But where does that connect to Matrix traffic?


It's a basic rule of security: the more traffic, the more security breaches.

QUOTE
I'd use an oil rig, personally, that lacks any sattelite or landline connectivity and is sufficiently far from any population center to have ordinary Matrix connection, but that's just me.


Really? In addition to the difficulty of supplying your workers, and the additional safety hazards, you're not really isolated, and will need a dedicated naval presence to secure it. You're also extremely vulnerable to water spirits and astral infiltration. You are again, isolated, so reinforcements are a long distance away.

QUOTE
Only up to a point, really. Besides, corps do HumInt too.


Everything works, up to a point. The whole reason we play this game is because shadowrunners are masters of brinksmanship.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Wothanoz @ Jul 13 2015, 02:32 PM) *
Do what? You're going to have to cite the rules there brosefus. We are given a few examples of Deckers, and they throw around 14ish dice. I therefore assume that "average" security isn't that good. there is absolutely zero reason to think that starting level characters are going to be facing the best security ever. I mean, are all the security guards


When starting Player Characters can throw upwards of 20 Dice, I do not assume that the Security Deckers of Major Megacorps are throwing 14 dice. Sorry. *shrug*
AlyW
I apologize for my thread bringing up so many arguments -_-
hermit
QUOTE
We are given a few examples of Deckers, and they throw around 14ish dice.

We're also given Archetypes that don't work according to the rules. If you disregard either and look into the rules and the world, you arrive at different conclusions.

QUOTE
You're right! There have never been any internet attacks against the US. And the point of StuxNet is that with enough traffic, whether physical or not, a secure site can be infiltrated.

The leaks about various doings of the US secret services have not been from foreign intelligence services, but their own people wondering whether they, this time, are the baddies. Stuxnet was brought into the Iranian plant by an infiltrator. Internet traffic density played no role in either incident.

QUOTE
It's a basic rule of security: the more traffic, the more security breaches.

Sure. But that's not the be-all end-all to security, nor do any of the incidents you brought up as an example have this as the cause.

QUOTE
Really? In addition to the difficulty of supplying your workers, and the additional safety hazards, you're not really isolated, and will need a dedicated naval presence to secure it. You're also extremely vulnerable to water spirits and astral infiltration. You are again, isolated, so reinforcements are a long distance away.

Sure. Still beats paying half an arcology in costs for nonsense like Umbrella's underground vault labs. Besides, cutting it loose is easier too - and far cheaper. Safety depends on additional conditions and applies to underground facilities too, btw.

QUOTE
Everything works, up to a point. The whole reason we play this game is because shadowrunners are masters of brinksmanship.

The problem is, in it's quest for grimdarkness and darker and edgier world building, SR5 made that point too close to the start for a viable game where not everything only works despite everyone's sense on the basis of GM handwaivium.
Lionhearted
Seem to me that some people are working under the assumption of the game being for the blackest of black trenchcoats and sure it's a gameplay style a lot of people enjoy.
Seem to me that under those conditions the game is very open for exploitation and gm death traps.
But judging it more from a middle of the road kind of position, not utterly black trenchcoat where you eat paranoia for breakfast and every contingency has contingencies nor completely pink mohawk where you ride into the middle of an azzie pyramid on an overgrown hell hound. Does the game mechanics actually do what they are intended to do? or is the system itself broken?
hermit
QUOTE
Does the game mechanics actually do what they are intended to do? or is the system itself broken?

It is a mess of rules interacting in weird ways (for instance, troll reduction lets you summon more spirits), sometimes the rules are overcomplex (called shots), sometimes too abstract (see vehicle speed), and sometimes you come onto nuggets of WTF, like the question of what happens when you unplug someone on a deep Matrix quest (the rules are silent on this scenario), or a tactical network that ostensibly is for civilian sports teams, costs half a million and will give only minimal boni (the hell CGL, where do these prices come from?).

Those are but a few random examples. The system is littered with them. It's not unplayable, but a good step backwards from
DireRadiant
The problem with SR5 is that it is not SR4, or SR3, or SR2, or SR1.

Otherwise it is Shadowrun and it works as well as any other edition. Just differently.

From my direct interaction with a hundred+ or so people I have played SR5 with over the previous couple of years one of the top comments regarding editions is that SR5 is still Shadowrunny.
Moirdryd
Most security deckers will be operating on the Site Host. Not scanning the open Matrix Grid around the Site itself.
hermit
QUOTE
From my direct interaction with a hundred+ or so people I have played SR5 with over the previous couple of years one of the top comments regarding editions is that SR5 is still Shadowrunny.

Well, yes. Shadowrunnyness lives and dies with fluff, and while there has been sketchiness, there have also been excellent pieces, such as the newest novel (which I read during most of the night yesterday, and it's quite fantastic). That part of the setting generally hasn't been as unfortunately handled as rules have, though not everyone is happy with the CFD plotline.

But I can enjoy fluff while playing in any edition. SR5 doesn't offer me very much to switch from 4th, rules-wise.
Glyph
QUOTE (AlyW @ Jul 13 2015, 01:02 PM) *
I apologize for my thread bringing up so many arguments -_-

There's nothing to be sorry for. Hashing out rules and discussing how we run the game are what this forum is for, and it's been a pretty civil discussion.


QUOTE (Wothanoz @ Jul 13 2015, 09:47 AM) *
As regards to pay, I wonder what kind of runs ya'll are throwing your players way.

a current run I have cooked up is going to pay out 24k a piece. That's not a LOT of money, but four or five of those runs, and you can buy something decent. And that's a mild one.

Really BIG jobs, I would break down into multiple side missions, leading up to the final run. But that's me.

But I don't know why people think shadowrunners are supposed to be millionaires.

Millionaires? Not sure I'd go that far. But there is a bit of a disconnect between the monetary resources that a starting street samurai, rigger, or decker requires, and how much the rules have them making afterwards. Your rules sound reasonable; the book's, much less so.



Overall:
SR5 is pretty balanced, mechanically, but they made some options all but unplayable by over-nerfing them (SURGE is a joke now, and technomancers got hit pretty hard too), and they have added all kinds of needless hindrances such as bricking, higher background count, and limits, which do nothing but suck fun from the game. Both the rules and the fluff suffer from truly horrendous editing, which has improved ever so slightly, but is still a long way from acceptable.
Wothanoz
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 13 2015, 03:53 PM) *
When starting Player Characters can throw upwards of 20 Dice, I do not assume that the Security Deckers of Major Megacorps are throwing 14 dice. Sorry. *shrug*


Well, the the problem with that line of thinking is that the highest attainable base dicepool appears to hover around 18(6 in attribute, 12 in skill), not counting specilizations or gear. The most talented int he world may get 20 dice from attribute and skill, and augmentations can push that 4 higher. Thats the base line for "best in the world". So starting characters with 18 or 20 dice are not "average" people. They are generally statistical outliers.

So yeah, an "average" corp decker probably throws around 12 to 14 dice. And thats a pretty high "average".

Corp spiders have all sorts of advantages, not related to skill or dice pool. No overwatch is a big one. Being able to operate in a host with IC that are friendly. Having the ability to call for copious back up on the matrix.

Its not that your average corp decker tosses 20 dice back at you, its that he can send a message and get twenty more guys to cover his ass.

This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012