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[AlyW]

I've a fair amount of exp. playing SR4, and have never played SR5. I am currently working my way through the SR5 core book, albeit slowly due to time constraints. So perhaps, could someone here give me a super-brief primer on what the big changes (if any?) between the two editions are?

[Medicineman]

I've a fair amount of exp. playing SR4, and have never played SR5. I am currently working my way through the SR5 core book, albeit slowly due to time constraints. So perhaps, could someone here give me a super-brief primer on what the big changes (if any?) between the two editions are?

big Differences ?
1)
The Matrix
2)
WiFi Bonus on lots of Things that make no Sense (only to lure the Chars into getting Wireless)
3)
Skills go now up to 12 ( but not for starting Chars , they're stuck to 6 maximum)
4)
'ware is fucking expensive now ( up to 10x as expensive ) especially Ini-raising 'ware
5)
Limits everywhere
6)
Vehicle Rules are different
7)
Initiative is now like SR3
8 )
Hackers need Decks now and thus are called Decker (like SR3 ,also fucking expensive like in SR3, You'd better not loose it or you might as well make a new Char)
9)
TM's have turned into redhaired, freckled Stepkids
10)
You can attack only once per Iniphase
( Shooting in SA is still a simple action and you still have 2 simple actions per Iniphase but You can Attack only once !)
11)
Base Char Creation is the Priority system (similar to SR3) there is a Karma Creation in Run Faster and the Sum-To-Ten (my favorite System in SR5 now. More Flexible than Prio System and the Chars are generally a bit better than with the Karma System.) but no more BP-System !

But thats all !
That's the main difference
(some minor Points like Trolls are just as fast as Dwarfes now and the Movement Rules are now messed up
or SR5 misses most of the Weapon Mod Rules or extended Lifestyle Rules)
the rest is nearly Identical

Hough!
Medicineman

[hermit]

1a) Hackers can now hack your things that they explode and burn. ALL THE THINGS, including cyberware. Unless you do not want WiFi boni.

2a) Without WiFi boni, a lot of items, such as smartlinks, are effectively worthless to have.

3a) ... but your successes are now capped by Limits derived from your attributes.

4a) ... and there's a new cyberware class called gammaware, which, greek alphabet be damned, is better than deltaware. It's also more expensive, but since delta is less expensive now, that kinda evens it out.

5) SR5 is SR4 that tries to be SR3.

6a) Most importantly, speed has been reduced to a flat number instead of m/combat turn. This is important for vehicle Limits, and since VCRs boost that, your sports car may accelerate way beyond the speed of sound now.

8a) With Data Trails (this editions Unwired) you can still hack with a commlink, kinda, but it's prohibitively expensive too. We're talking 200,000+

9a) An upcoming book has been announced that will kinda de-gimp them. We shall see.

10) A lot of equipment and qualities are missing for no good reason; converting characters may be very tough.

[Abschalten]

Stick with SR4, and backport the handful of things that SR5 actually improves.

[Lionhearted]

No love for SR5 I see, god I barely touched my SR4 books in years but its good knowing its not worth dolling out for the new edition.
Did they improve karma gen btw? after playing SRR and Dragonfall (the reason I returned to this board really) I find the SR4 system needlessly restrictive and overly costly

[Glyph]

Karmagen (called Point Buy in SR5) is more restrictive and costly than the old version, with characters typically being more fine-tuned but significantly weaker than Priority builds.

My biggest pet peeve is that the costs for metavariants are completely different than they are in Priority. One example - elves cost 40 Karma, while dryads cost 90 karma; in Priority, they are exactly the same (and Priority has a mechanism of certain metatypes having an extra Karma cost to play them - so there is a mechanic they could have used if they thought dryads needed to be more expensive).

[Lionhearted]

Wasnt always the benefit of karmagen over bp that you could spread out more while specialising was more expensive? seems counterintuitive... Unless Im misintepretating you

[Glyph]

Theoretically, this was true, but Karmagen gave you enough points that even in its most stringent iteration (750 Karma with errata of paying the metatype BP cost in Karma and using the x 5 multiplier for skills), it usually gave you better value than build points even for optimized builds (meaning some high skills/Attributes), while for generalists, it was massively better than build points.

The SR5 version doesn't keep up with Priority nearly as well. The problem is that things have been raised across the board - you don't have that balloon payment to hard-max that one Attribute, starting with a Magic of 6 and/or an Edge of 5-7 is fairly common, and you can have multiple skills of 6. All of these things cost a lot when you use the exponential costs of Karma - even specializations are expensive, costing 7 rather than 2 Karma. It costs 200 Karma to maximize your resources.

All of these things add up to the point where 800 points is simply not the equivalent of a Priority build. You can make viable characters (although some things, such as trolls or augmented characters, have a tougher time), but it is only worth it if you have a really finicky build.

The one advantage it does have over Priority is that it is much, much more scalable. Just raise or lower the Karma amounts and there you are. SR5 does try to have some "high-powered" or "low-powered" variants to Priority, but they... don't work very well.

[Medicineman]

No love for SR5 I see, god I barely touched my SR4 books in years but its good knowing its not worth dolling out for the new edition.
Did they improve karma gen btw? after playing SRR and Dragonfall (the reason I returned to this board really) I find the SR4 system needlessly restrictive and overly costly

Hey , MY POST was just a little Biased, not full of Hate (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

To be Fair,
There IS Love from My Side (Well rather fondness, not really Love (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )
The Devs from CGL did try to remove some Mistakes but that didn't work out.
f.E.
the CGL Guys realized that a Skill Level of 6 (in 4A) is not enough, especially when a Char can start with Skills of 5 or 6
so they raised the Levels.
That is a superb Idea !
BUT (!)
A Skill Level of 12 is too high, it can hardly be achieved by Chars (especially because they reduced the Karma Rewards for Runs which is another minor Problem)
Now only the NPCs can make use of the higher skillrating and the higher pools,
You find average (Prof 3 ) NPCs with Pools of 12,15 or more Dice. Something a PC (and his Player) can only dream of !
A raising to 9 (10 with exceptional talent) would have been perfect,
for PCs there would still be room to grow but the "Top is in Reach"
Another Example:
The Devs from CGL recognized that Direct Combat Spells is a mighty tool for a Mage and if overcast most often a One-Shot-Kill for the Mage
So they Nerfed direct Combats spell which is ok,
BUT (!)
Now the only way to effectively use direct Combat Spells is to overcast them (something CGL wanted to Prevent IIRC)
AND Mages have to overcast severall times to down an Enemy
so the contrary of what CGL intended happens now
it would've been much simpler toreduce the Base Damage of direct Combat Spells to 1/2 Spell Rating and Indirect Combat Spells to Full Spell Rating
(Simple and Clean ! )
but they didn't and it seems that enough players complained so CGL introduced a Pos Qual (Feel my hot Wrath....?)
to raise the Damage of direct Combat Spells again ( but they didn't correct the fact that Combat Mages Still overcast regularly.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)
Next example would be :
"Thou shall Attack only once per Inipass !" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)
CGL Idea was (If I interpret it correctly) to shorten the Combat BUT they Violate the Ingame Reality so hard becuase they Introduced Boardgame Rules into a RPG which is inherently bad !
( You can Shoot twice per Inipass, but You can Attack only once....)

Some of CGL's Ideas are OK, but the execution (or implementation into the Rules) failed.
Some Issues are even worse, but I don't want to spoil my Sunday by listing all that is bad & wrong (and no Fun) with SR5.
My Final Tip:
Mix the best from SR4A with the best from SR5 and make Your own Game (I do so with a Campaign in 2055 )

with a Sunday's Dance
Medicineman

[Medicineman]

@ Karmagen
You get 800 Karma
If you deduct the Higher Racial Costs you can create Chars that can be compared to the 750 Karma from SR4A
BUT (!)
with Priority (or Sum to Ten) Your Chars compare to 900 or 950 Karma or even 1000 from SR4A !
Especially High Attributes (Prime example is the Troll Melee Adept with STR10) can only be done with Prio or Sum-->10
If you want to make a Troll Adept with Karmasystem it'll become a One-Trick-Pony which lacks so many othere Skills, Abilities,Etc that he's no fun to Play !
The different Char Creation Methods are NOT (!!) balanced !
and forget about the Lifepath System (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)
Just forget it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
It's really not worth writing down everything that's wrong with it
(not on a Sunday)

HougH!
Medicineman

[AlyW]

Blergh. Sounds like I'd be overall happier sticking to SR4 then. Still, I'm looking to join an SR5 game on this board. The increased cost to 'ware already bugs me cause I love my 'wares. I like the idea of bringing back Decks though.

Will have to see how things go, I guess.

[Lionhearted]

Didnt they playtest any of this?

[SpellBinder]

Didnt they playtest any of this?

That's what the product release was. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[hermit]

Didnt they playtest any of this?

Playtesting happened (and it's easy to get into; just write Jason an email). I'm not at liberty to go into details unfortunately. But the problem wasn't not playtesting.

[Medicineman]

Blergh. Sounds like I'd be overall happier sticking to SR4 then. Still, I'm looking to join an SR5 game on this board. The increased cost to 'ware already bugs me cause I love my 'wares. I like the idea of bringing back Decks though.

Will have to see how things go, I guess.

ever thought about a Decker Adept ?
( You could Use Your Powerpoints to boost your Decking Skills or combine it with Cat Burglar or Traceur)

Didnt they playtest any of this?

From what I read in the US Forums CGL doesn't listen to the Playtester...
or forgets to correct some of the Issues that the Playtester report

with a combination's Dance
Medicineman

[Glyph]

Blergh. Sounds like I'd be overall happier sticking to SR4 then. Still, I'm looking to join an SR5 game on this board. The increased cost to 'ware already bugs me cause I love my 'wares. I like the idea of bringing back Decks though.

Will have to see how things go, I guess.

Augmentations are more expensive, but starting resources are higher, too. Some things have actually improved. To get the bad out of the way, it is generally better to stick to laser sights with wireless turned off rather than smarlinks, and to not combine the formerly-stackable wired reflexes and reaction enhancers. They both give "bonuses" (getting the +2 dice you got before in SR4, and having two augmentations the previously stacked still do so), but it is not worth the small but still present risk of getting bricked by a hacker, which can permanently damage augmentations. Also, you don't halve the lower of cyberware/bioware Essence costs any longer.

On the positive side, "used" 'ware is treated as its own grade now (so no more "used alphaware" crap any more), one which can be useful, since it has lower Availability (lots of builds with used muscle toner: 3). Cyberlimbs have much better rules than SR4, similar to the Augmentation rules, but even better since they simplified cyberlimb stats by only giving them Agility and Strength ratings, dropping the needless Body rating. Anything that gives a dice pool bonus is more expensive, but toughness-enhancing augmentations (bone lacing, orthoskin, etc.) is a lot cheaper. So while street samurai, like mages, have been nerfed in areas, they are still viable - you just need to revise your optimization strategies.


On decks - my main problem with them is that they make deckers too gear-dependent. If they lose their deck, they are suddenly all but useless at their main function. And good luck getting another one, if you compare the cost of a good deck with what they think a shadowrun should pay.

[Moirdryd]

Most of the Wireless silliness (especially with smartlinks etc) is easily avoided by either A) Simple House rule so it all works like it did before or B) Going RAW use the Internal Router from ChromeFlesh

I cannot contribute much to the 4v5 question as I've gone from 3rd to 5th with a few house rules rolled in (some are not so much House Rules and Rulings on a player action that I've written up to keep it consistent when people want to do the same thing, like my Encryption/Electronic Warfare stuff).

[KCKitsune]

Theoretically, this was true, but Karmagen gave you enough points that even in its most stringent iteration (750 Karma with errata of paying the metatype BP cost in Karma and using the x 5 multiplier for skills), it usually gave you better value than build points even for optimized builds (meaning some high skills/Attributes), while for generalists, it was massively better than build points.

Off topic, but still relevant: With SR4A, what level or karma did you use for starting characters? What was a fair level as compared to BP

On decks - my main problem with them is that they make deckers too gear-dependent. If they lose their deck, they are suddenly all but useless at their main function. And good luck getting another one, if you compare the cost of a good deck with what they think a shadowrun should pay.

Now back on topic: I think every iteration of Shadowrun paid 'Runners way, Way, WAY too damn little! I mean considering what I'm hearing about a Run; you can make more money, be safer, have an easier time with it, and piss off the LEOs less by stealing cars! You're dealing with people who are regularly sporting 100,000+ (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) of augmentation/magic* gear. These people are PROFESSIONALS and the Johnson's paying them peanuts!

* == even technomancers should have some augmentation (Synaptic Booster level 1 and a datajack (for the offline storage capabilities at least).

[SpellBinder]

...

* == even technomancers should have some augmentation (Synaptic Booster level 1 and a datajack (for the offline storage capabilities at least).

If it's SR4 you don't even need a datajack. Arsenal, page 63, the Fingernail Data Storage. It's wirelessly accessible, is less than half the price of a Standard grade datajack, doesn't cost any Essence, and fools everyone on a casual look. On top of that there's nothing to say that it must be a fingernail. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

As far as I can recall this little bit of gear has not yet been reprinted into SR5. Maybe it's too powerful, like the skinlink?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If it's SR4 you don't even need a datajack. Arsenal, page 63, the Fingernail Data Storage. It's wirelessly accessible, is less than half the price of a Standard grade datajack, doesn't cost any Essence, and fools everyone on a casual look. On top of that there's nothing to say that it must be a fingernail. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

As far as I can recall this little bit of gear has not yet been reprinted into SR5. Maybe it's too powerful, like the skinlink?

There was also Nanopaste Memory (Unwired, Page 200 - lasted for 24 hours)...
If one wanted to restore the availability of Fingernail Data Storage, it should not be a problem due to the massive and totally available Memory storage already in game.

[hermit]

But in SR5, Nanopaste memory will eat your soul, and what do you think happens when your fingernail is bricked? Ever seen what happens when you tape a firecracker to a finger and then explode it? Not pretty ...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

But in SR5, Nanopaste memory will eat your soul, and what do you think happens when your fingernail is bricked? Ever seen what happens when you tape a firecracker to a finger and then explode it? Not pretty ...

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Too True. Though apparently, Nanoware was not quite the scare they made it out to be, since it was reintroduced almost in its entirety once again. Took a few weeks to work the bugs out, I guess. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[SpellBinder]

But in SR5, Nanopaste memory will eat your soul, and what do you think happens when your fingernail is bricked? Ever seen what happens when you tape a firecracker to a finger and then explode it? Not pretty ...

Kinda begs the question to what really happens when your wired reflexes and reaction enhancers get bricked because you left the wireless open. Me, I'm of the opinion that you become a quadriplegic and a quivering mass of jello until the systems gets replaced, though a friend of mine feels that you just lose the cyberware benefits and can act as normal despite the fact that your replacement spinal cord is now a sparking, melting piece of slag (yes, I've told him about how spectacular the death of a bricked anything is).

[hermit]

That's gamism versus simulation, or "how video game logic do you want your game to be?"

Actually, even a whiff of vapors emitted from bricked brainware will kill you nearly instantly, if you go the realism route. But alas, Shadowrun 5 kowtows before video game logic. Me, I'd consider all bricking firmware damage, no explosions or anything.

[Glyph]

Off topic, but still relevant: With SR4A, what level or karma did you use for starting characters? What was a fair level as compared to BP

I considered the aforementioned version (750 Karma with errata of paying the metatype BP cost in Karma and using the x 5 multiplier for skills) to be the closest to balanced. Most characters were a bit over 400 BP, a few corner cases (such as trolls with high natural Body and Strength) were somewhat worse off, and generalists (of the low Attribute/low skill variety) were a lot better (which was still balanced, to me - I thought build points were far too punishing to generalist builds, which were already a suboptimal concept).

It's all but impossible to make them exactly balanced. One uses flat costs, and one uses exponential costs, so they will never match up completely.

Now back on topic: I think every iteration of Shadowrun paid 'Runners way, Way, WAY too damn little! I mean considering what I'm hearing about a Run; you can make more money, be safer, have an easier time with it, and piss off the LEOs less by stealing cars! You're dealing with people who are regularly sporting 100,000+ (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) of augmentation/magic* gear. These people are PROFESSIONALS and the Johnson's paying them peanuts!

* == even technomancers should have some augmentation (Synaptic Booster level 1 and a datajack (for the offline storage capabilities at least).

I agree, but SR5 makes it worse by having actual rules for calculating run payments.