No ! The Problem ist SR5 IS SR4A (mostly except for the Matrix and some other slight differencies)
BUT it is SR4A in BAD and with Limits

with the same Dance
Medicineman

Given their price policy, CGL seems to think differently, or at least elements within CGL.


And Elite security are average people? Or, in more gamist terms, you think matching statistical outliers with average people is a worthy challenge? Sorry, that may be your way of rationalizing around some of SR5'S innate problems, but that doesn't mean it makes a whole lot of sense to others.


SR5 is SR4 that wants to be SR3, but isn't very good at it.


Why should they' There's ICE to do that job in the host. They're far more effective in the open Matrix.

You do realize that the Starting Character with 18 Dice is still just a Professional level Character, yes (Mine started with a Skill 6, Starting Attribute 6, Specialty, Quality for +2 and HotSim for 18 Dice)? An Elite Character has skills around 9-10 and stats above 6 (Character currently has skill 6, Attribute 8, several Specialties, Positive Quality for +2 in several skills and HotSim for 20 Dice - But still only Professional Level). So no, I do not see Average Corporate Deckers that have been doing their job for a while as "Average." I expect them to be at least in a starting PC's league. And Veteran Level is a Skill 7. And Yes, they also will enjoy many benefits a Shadowrunner will not, but that does not mean that you give them less ability than a starting Professional.

And that brings me to one of the big disconnects of SR5, for me at least. The Skill System (my other is Global Limits). While many people like that skills now go above SR4's Legendary 7, I am not one of them. Yes, in SR4, you can start out as best in the world, in one skill, and possibly even Legendary. In SR5, that level is now what we know as Professional/Veteran. Problem is that taking your character to Elite is now stupid expensive (Used to be a Skill 5, but is now 9-10), never mind Legendary. And while that appeals to some (I like it in some ways in theory, since my goal was always to start at Professional and improve, but execution is not equal to theory here) but it irritates people since they will likely never see Elite Status in their core skills, let alone support skills. Even 200 Karma in to our campaign, we have YET to see a skill 7, though we do have some working towards it (and mind, that is in a single skill to this point - yes, I know one could just pound Karma into raising skills to double digits, but that is rarely logical, nor does it generally represent a normal progression for people. Such skill and knowledge is garnered over many years of experience, not months, and is generally (successful or not) represented in game by training times). Many games do not go half that in Karma. So effectively you will never see Elite Status. And that sucks.

that's what I think about the Subject of the new Skill Rating

HougH!
Medicineman

SR4's skills had low granularity, and an increase in that was necessary. 12 goes too high though; it already unbalances the game's core resolution mechanic (plus, Limits work against making high pools actually useful). I'd have preferred adding 3 levels unattainable by starting characters, with skills effectively one to 10 (and 7 a starting maximum, going by SR4 rules for all buying/increases).

Limits, while not bad in theory, have weird effects in practice, like trolls being super ninjas due to their high physical limit, which comes from them being 3 meters tall and weighing in at about half a metric ton. Some ninja.

Mostly because, despite the new Matrix environment, when you actually look at things like Hosts and the way they're talked about further in Data Trails, what you have is a fairly close Wireless Matrix to that of 3rd Edition. Most non-personal Devices will either be on or slaved to a Host. Security Spiders are just like the sec-deckers of the bygone age meaning that they're a limited/expensive talent pool (less so than magi but far more so than security guards) and a lot of Corps will most likely use One Host to serve Multiple Physical Sites, it's cheaper and more efficient. Because of this odds are that an actual Security Decker/Spider won't be anywhere near the physical location of a run unless the run is taking place on a rather significant building (MCT Tower in Downtown Seattle etc).

Now, what you're likely to get in terms of devices being located by onsite security is a "specialist" security guard who, odds are, will not be anywhere near as good as an actual security spider (elite teams or bad luck excepting) who can take a look around at the local Matrix and try to spot the Running Silent icons which could certainly alert the security team to an unwarranted intrusion assuming it's successful and the site in question doesn't have a bunch of Silent Icons there anyway. But at that juncture it's kind of like dodging security cameras and check points and there are methods to avoid this, jammers for one, slaving things to Cyberdecks for another (granted not being able to slave PANs to a deck makes this harder, but you can house rule like I have), implanting the RFID codes of your team's things into the manifests for the site's device log and so forth. There's also nothing that say's that you can an instant physical location when you spot a Device, you only know that it's within X meters (probably 100 since you go with the "Are there any Silent Icons within 100m of my position") You can certainly gain it's location but that's extra perception hits/ actions. Plus you can just turn the Commlink OFF if you so desire as with a few exceptions the Internal Router allows for Wireless Cyberware interface without actually being Wireless and likewise a cable from a DataJack or similar allows for SmartLink functionality and so forth.

I grant it;s not the most elegant thing in the world, but it's hardly insurmountable.

Curious, as this is not something I've thought of before, is electronic warfare outside of the matrix (ie dealing with radio communications, sensor jamming and such) still a thing in the 2075s?

With how easy it is to cobble together an FM receiver its unlikely that this kind of tech will ever go out of style, yeah maybe in general urban settings... but Pirate radio, underground communities, survival situations, military expeditions looking for reliable and repairable tech? Yeah you will still find radio equipment...

Riggers can use the electronic warfare skill for noise reduction, and anyone can use a jammer. There are still radio signals and such, but pretty much everything is on the Matrix. Micro-transceivers can have their wireless turned off, although they are only good for short-range communications then.

Hrm, good to know. Considering cobbling together an EW specialist, wasnt sure if there was room for such in the setting

Next question!

I haven't used Martial Arts in previous editions; I've been looking over Martial Arts in Run & Gun, and I'm a little confused on how to acquire them.

If I spend points in the Unarmed Combat skill, how do I then get to the martial arts form and technique? My *guess* is that they are separate purchases, since it seems like the various techniques modify basic combat abilities (such as Chin Na giving a +2 bonus to Physical Limits on subdue attacks). So how many skill ranks one has in unarmed combat is irrelevant. Am I correct in this?

Martial Arts are purchased separately from the Unarmed Combat Skill. It takes 7 Karma points to gain access to the Martial art (and you receive one of the 6 Maneuvers listed in the Martial Art as well, your choice). Additional Maneuvers cost an additional 5 Karma. So a total Martial Art will cost the character 32 Karma to master. Also, as far as I can tell, there is no restriction of skill placed on the purchase of the martial art maneuvers, as there was in earlier Editions (3rd IIRC); So yes, Skill rank is mostly irrelevant in the purchasing of the martial art.

The whole section on combat maneuvers is a grating pain to scan through. Some of the martial arts-only techniques are mixed in with the general actions earlier, there are way too damn many actions (they really should have pared down the rules bloat), and, especially for the martial arts, they give many of them a lameass name like "leaping mantis" or "monkey climb" instead of something more descriptive of what that maneuver does.

They have a lot more martial arts styles, including ones for guns and melee weapons, but they are less distinctive, since martial arts styles don't give specific bonuses, just a different list of 6 maneuvers for each one. You can learn the same maneuver twice from two different styles, letting you turn a piddly +1 bonus to a piddly +2 bonus, so you are better off learning more than one style rather than mastering one style (this may sound a bit disparaging, but actually, this is better than SR4, where the martial arts rules were overpowered). You can only have one style at character creation, though. There is one special technique, Neijia, which can be learned by any character that knows a martial arts style - it is basically the Attack of Will that mundanes use to attack spirits.

Martial arts is also available as a specialization (it doesn't explicitly say, but I assume you need the quality before you can take the specialization). Despite the glut of martial arts stuff, how to determine when a martial arts specialization applies is still vague. There is a quality called One Trick Pony, which lets you use a single martial arts quality without knowing a martial art. It costs 7 Karma, the same as learning a martial arts style (which includes a martial arts maneuver...), so it doesn't save you anything; only take it if you want a one trick pony. There is also Lucky Move, where you spend a point of Edge to use a martial arts technique that you have not been trained in; there are usually better ways to spend Edge, in my opinion.

That last paragraph could be a concern, since the character I am working on did take a martial arts specialization to unarmed combat (along with paying some karma to get the form and a couple of techniques)

If you bought both a martial art and the specialization, you don't really have anything to be concerned over. Maybe it's confusing that I called martial arts styles "qualities", although I guess they aren't explicitly referred to as such. All I was saying was, it is logical to expect a character to know the karate style before taking an unarmed specialization in karate.

For me its the other way round.
First You learn generic unarmed Combat, than You specialise in Karate THAN you learn the Karate Style and the Maneuvers.
Knowing a Style is for me the equivalent of being a Black Belt. And specializing is ...any colored Belt.

but To Topic.
There's lots of People that say that with a specialisation( and a +2 Bonus) in Martial Art there also comes a +2 Bonus for all the Maneuvers if you also Learn the Style.
I like that thought and use it at my tables too

with a Dance on a Table
Medicineman

To me it is rather odd, to seperate unarmed combat from martial arts as RAW has it. But that directly ties in to the point of weird skillweighting and something hilarious I have read in this thread about SR5 being fairly balanced.

Shadowrun as such is not balanced. While it would be hell to go and try to balance it, it is even less balanced than it could or should be. Still Shadowrun is not much about actual classes and balance is highly linked to context. One games uber-build may easily be another games "mostly useless" one. People time and again try to explain the balance of Shadowrun, by simply summing up points, igonring what they mean and how context changes their worth.

Shadowrun has never been and still is not balanced. SR5 simply adressed some issues and worsened quite a few aswell. Further more this is getting worse with almost every book they throw out there. Shadowrun should not be balanced but reasonable. It should be somewhat consitent and coherent. Yet we have multiple versions of the same thing, that rulewise work quite differently (be it powers, implants or whatnot). There are such huge differences in how the crunch is approached in different chapers of one and the same book (and over different books) that I sometimes wonder if it is still the same system or world from a few pages ago. There is no such thing as a line there (even though there appears to be a line developer).

Fluffwise it may still be shadowrunny, but I think that CGL even failed the fluff on many accounts. In all honesty I do not think that CGL is treating SR well.

Shadowrun always had problems and no edition was flawless, SR5 (while still profiting from what SR4 achieved) is the worst so far.

The sentiment that SR5 is SR4 trying to be SR3 has been mine from the first moments on, asmuch as the fact that does so badly and that the idea it self is rather bad. Again and again I really try and infact I actively play SR5, but this edition is lost.

So as for the question, which way to go... stick with the latest version of SR4 (or SR4a as some say) and if you like patch in some of the better features of SR5. Although the best thing to do would likely be to make up your own edition anyway.

I agree that balance in Shadowrun is different from balance in many other games (unless you play Shadowrun: Dungeon Crawl) but I don't think that it's not a concern.

It is a problem if the mage (or adept, or cyber-adpet, or rigger, or whatever) can out-face the face, out-gun the sam/adept and out-stealth the infiltration specialist (especially if he can do it at the same time).
It is a problem if one augmentation path (cyber, adept or combination of both) is consistently better than the other. If someone can create a build that will have the exact same stat as another one but with higher scores, there's a problem

So while it's illusory to search for perfect balance, it's still a good idea to try to make sure that all valid character concepts can bring something interesting to the party.

True, but SR5 is not doing too well in that sector either. Then again, Shadorun probably never did.

It didn't but it did do better than currently.

I don't think that's by design, though; it's more the unforeseen consequence of a range of design decisions, miscommunications and differences on the idea what "everything has a price" is supposed to mean. And no line direction of note, of course, but that was par for the course in late SR4 already and isn't an SR5 exclusive problem. I do hope the ChromeFlesh PDF did not go to the printers like this, though.

Hermit I am right with you there. While it is a very noticable SR5 problem, I would link it more to CGL, than the edition alone. "No line-direction of note" still hits it on the spot.

Unfortunatly so, yes.

Will there be a ChromedFlesh PDF version with a usable "table of content"? ^^

*shakes the magic 8-ball* "Don't Hold Your Breath"

Dumpshock is like the ISIS of Shadowrun forums. You're not going to get a balanced report on the new edition here. If you don't worship the Caliphate of SR4 you are an infidel!

SR5 is definately worth it.

The cosat of basic wares has gone up, but the upgrade path is affordable with Alpha-Delta multipliers being much more rational.

Don't listen to SR5 hate on Dumpshock. you'll miss something good if you do.

Wow... I find that highly offensive. .. I have been lurking here for some time reading posts on 5th edition. Yes, there is a lot of vitriol for 5th (I for one don't like it) but the problems people have with it are real. From book layout, corrections not used, fluff and crunch mixed... Yes, 4th had those problems too but 5th seems to take them to a new level. Then you have the rules people don't like...

While you are calling us ISIS why don't you throw in Nazis too... ...



You know... I had this discussion with my old GM... what's the problem with house ruling the reduced grade costs into 4th. What's wrong with using the skill levels of 5th in 4th.

Absolutely nothing... that's what. The OP asked what people thought of 5th so they responded. If he wants to base his/her opinion of 5th on what the people here say that's his choice. I for one am glad I didn't waste money on any part of 5th... I just wish I could get the few hours of my life back I spent reading the 5th ed book.

Now... I am perfectly OK getting a perma-ban for what I am about to write but...

Next time you want to spout off your mouth equating people to ISIS, or Nazis for that matter, shut the fuck up and keep it to yourself.

You're pretty easily offended then. It's called a metaphor. I'm saying that the opinions here are in the extreme, They should not be taken as the mainstream view. In fact, they're not even close. ISIS was used for gravitas, nothing more.



Go nuts. I never said you couldn't.



As well as being easily offended, you are also hard of reading. He didn't ask for people's opinions on whether he should get the editiion but rather what the key differences were. What he got was basically a load of opinionated bollocks.

Here it is again for your benefit:



After about a page of hate the guy had already written off the edition. Just as well he didn't draw a picture of Jordan Weisman................



I hope you don't. I have a pretty thick skin.

So, the infinity mirror is back. So much for fixing the matrix. But I remember someone from design team saying that the way to fix this issue is to kick the player who tries stuff like that. So, I guess, problem solved.

This is again, not even an issue. If you make your matrix perception check each hit tells you something about the icon. Now admittedly this is a pretty vague rule that could have been easily tightened up but you can either interpret it as:

1) "Oh, there's 10 shite commlinks and 1 deck" as the result of the roll or:

2) "There's 11 unknowns" because we assume that people can make icons give whatever rubblish information they want which then breaks the rules.

I tend to go for the former.

Smash, if you have a problem with any of the things that people have been saying about SR5's editing, wireless rules, martial arts rules, or anything else we've been talking about, then feel free to rebut any of it. But be specific. Just saying "They're a bunch of haters" doesn't really cut it. Say why we're supposedly being unfair.


Your last post was a good start. I would probably agree with you, assuming the icons were all within insta-spotting distance and not running hidden. The problem (for the hacker) arises when either the icons are running silently, or they are using the Wrapper program on their icons.

So we can call the SR5/WAR! authors/line developer and fans Nazis for the "Works bring freedom" chapter in WAR?

Just as a metaphor of course?

SYL

The ISIS comment was way out of line. Stop trolling for a flame war or post somewhere else, it's that simple.

What breaks the rules? Particularly, if there are hidden icons in the vicinity, why should a matrix perception test give you more information than: "There are so-and-so number of hidden icons"?

I find it so strange that one group of people take the position that "wireless is rubbish because its easily hackable, and you can't protect your wireless devices", without anything in the world to back them up.

Actual experience is that Commlinks are not easy to hack(anything less than a rating 4 is fairly easy, but rating 5 and better are pretty hard to hack), neither is anything else. Hacking pretty much requires top of the line equipment, and world class skills.

Do you not need a Sleaze attribute to hide something? Doesn’t anything, not hidden/sleazed; in the matrix clearly say what it is and what it can?

Sleaze is a Matrix Attribute, used as a limit for performing Matrix actions (such as hack on the fly) or to resist them (such as trace icon). Sleaze is typically used for tests involving hiding or making subtle probes or code alterations.

You don't need it to run silent, though (rules start on page 235). It is part of the test to defend against someone trying to perceive a hidden icon, so someone running a commlink would be rolling only Logic vs. the decker's Computer + Intuition (Data Processing) test. But (page 236) if there are multiple hidden icons, the decker has to randomly pick which one he is going to look at with this opposed test. That is where Wothanoz's tactic of carrying around 10 throwaway commlinks comes from - you are reducing your chances of being spotted right away to a bit less than 10%.

He roll Logic [ - ] vs Computer + Intuitionm[Data Processing]. The silent running whatever has 0 successes, because he cannot have, use not more than 0 Successes. Whoever is looking pretty much find it/him by default. And at this point y can just run a level 1 Agent or Ice to look for stuff like that.

Thats the point where you use 1000 small stealth tags in silent mode.

SYL

There is no Limit on the Logic + Sleaze roll Sternenwind so hits can be achieved without Sleaze, it's just less effective. The multiple Commlink thing is a decent idea although I tend to allow sorting of Silent Icons with Matrix Perception checks before picking which ones they want to start identifying properly (this actually makes Wrapper more useful) as I allow for the "Any Silent Running Icons within 100m/on host" and once that's established I allow hits to be used to filter by type (PANs, Commlinks, Weapons etc). Means diversion tactics can be used but it also allows Wrapper to apply more but prevents things from bogging down into the 1000 rfid tag tactic.

I don't mind that interpretation. I dislike any interpretation that makes wireless a death sentence.

Also, for real fun: have a Technomancer and Decker team up. It's amazing what a Decker can do when a Technomancer is helping him.

A Technomancer should not have to team up with a Decker to be effective. One of the biggest complaints of Technomancer players in SR5. They should be viable by themselves. They are, but you need to design for that, and designing to be the Buffer of the Decker messes with that design choice.

As for wireless being a death sentence, that is the price you pay to be wireless in SR5. Best way to avoid it is to turn off wireless. It is not necessary. May make things a bit more difficult, but it is definitely not something that you need to deal with. If the Decker is protecting a team from opposition hackers (Matrix Bodyguard) he is not performing his job of Matrix Intrusion Specialist. Action economy and all that.

But ... it is the explicit goal of wifi in SR5 to be detectable and attackable. That is, according to the line developer Jason Hardy the explicit reason why wifi exists in the first place. And since you are usually playing a game of cat and mouse (or evil corp soldiers vs brave runners) being detected by an enemy who can throw Thor hammers at you is usually a death sentence only stopped when you bribe the game master with sex or chocolate.



Yes, we all know that the current generation of SR authors would love to see the TM reduced being a pet for the real hacker.

SYL

*has images of Slamm-O! telling Netcat that and the ensuing graphic violence that would ensue.*

Heh

'Domestically Disturbed' is my all time favorite SR short fiction.

or play a Mage/Mystic Adept who doesn't rely on /doesn't need WiFi

with a magical Dance
Medicineman

At least until they introduce WizFi for 6th Ed.

Because you know 6th approaches as foretold by the omen of the coming of the Rigger Handbook

Mages already have the equivalent of going wireless - astral perception. Using it lets you see magical security features or analyze things by their aura, but it also leaves you vulnerable to astral threats. If they had put as much thought into wireless, it would have been better received. Because that is the main problem people had with wireless - its slipshod implementation. Wireless bonuses should have been for communications, remote-controlled things, or thing that could plausibly benefit from being connected to the Matrix's database.

Instead it was an illogical mess that left no one happy. Street samurai had to worry about an undetectable attack that could leave them blind or crippled, turning them away from previously-iconic augmentations like smartlinks. Deckers, the ones who supposedly benefited from this by having an "attack" they could do, found that actually pulling it off was difficult (and frustrating). And in addition to that, they got stuck with babysitting duty, tasked with defending their teammates from hacking attacks.

The problem being that this cripples any mundane character compared to awakened characters, since a lot of cyberware and equipment provides no meaningful effect without wireless. On the other hand, if you turn it on, there's no meaningful defense a character themselves can employ to protect against Matrix attacks. In the end, this makes mundane characters vastly less effective than awakened characters.


Indeed. In practice it became a very badly implemented, fluffwise ridiculous nerf bat for anyone mundane and augmented. For an edition that wanted to emphathise the cyberpunk element in Shadowrun, SR5 is very busy to nerf the Augmented, anyway (and is there even one new novel that doesn't have an awakened or emergent protagonist?)

Two simple fixes...
1) Make the stuff work like in previous editions. This is not hard.
or, for an Official fix
2) Use the Internal Router from Chrome Flesh.

Granted 1 should have been in place from the get go but at least 2 is an official fix.

I wouldn't call it a fix (spend a lot of Essence so that cyberware maybe does what it's supposed to do), but it's a step in the right direction. Also, it is, according to the author, "highly controversial" among authors. Make of that what you will.