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JanessaVR
post Jul 25 2017, 08:58 PM
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QUOTE (hermit @ Jul 25 2017, 12:31 PM) *
And that stupid Cyberpunk idea.

Eh, you can always take a point of Essence's worth of cyberware, just don't go overboard. Let the muggles cyber up to the gills.
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hermit
post Jul 25 2017, 09:19 PM
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I think the game you're referring to is WoD. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I guess, though, any SR GM should take this as a reminder to make good use of Background count on mage characters. Unless you want to play Mage: the Shadowing, I guess.
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JanessaVR
post Jul 25 2017, 09:37 PM
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QUOTE (hermit @ Jul 25 2017, 01:19 PM) *
I think the game you're referring to is WoD. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I guess, though, any SR GM should take this as a reminder to make good use of Background count on mage characters. Unless you want to play Mage: the Shadowing, I guess.

Mage: the Shadowing...I love it! You've managed to succinctly sum up my "always be a magician" play style for Shadowrun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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KCKitsune
post Jul 26 2017, 07:39 AM
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QUOTE (hermit @ Jul 25 2017, 04:31 PM) *
And that stupid Cyberpunk idea.


That's why I always take cyberware for almost all of my characters. I think the only I didn't do that for was a Physical Adept. The combat mage I worked up has 1.99 points of cyber, The technomancers each have only 1 point. Mainly datajack and Cerebral/Cerebellum Booster.
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Titan
post Jul 26 2017, 07:19 PM
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QUOTE (JanessaVR @ Jul 25 2017, 01:02 PM) *
As for MagicRun, heck, they should go ahead and embrace this. Go the Earthdawn route and declare that all PCs are Awakened by default - it's just a question of which kind of Awakened. It would put an end to all the "Mundane versus Awakened PCs" issues.


As a concept, I embrace this idea. (I love Earthdawn, both world and system.)

But the reality is a different beast. For the world to go "all awakened" would require another paradigm shift, likely to the 7th age. And we all know how well the current publishers did with Crash 2.0...

Unless you are saying that PCs (only) are required to be Awakened... I'm not sure how I feel about that. I am a Rigger at heart...

Either way, the gear and magic system would have to be gone over with a fine tooth comb to reduce overlap, and ensure some sort of balance. I'm afraid that this requires 6th Edition at least.
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JanessaVR
post Jul 26 2017, 07:26 PM
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QUOTE (Titan @ Jul 26 2017, 11:19 AM) *
As a concept, I embrace this idea. (I love Earthdawn, both world and system.)

But the reality is a different beast. For the world to go "all awakened" would require another paradigm shift, likely to the 7th age. And we all know how well the current publishers did with Crash 2.0...

Unless you are saying that PCs (only) are required to be Awakened... I'm not sure how I feel about that. I am a Rigger at heart...

Either way, the gear and magic system would have to be gone over with a fine tooth comb to reduce overlap, and ensure some sort of balance. I'm afraid that this requires 6th Edition at least.

I meant just all PCs, not the whole world. As for being a Rigger, outside of a Control Rig, what else to do you need? Can Adept powers substitute for any other cyberware you might want? Boosted reflexes and such.
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hermit
post Jul 26 2017, 07:54 PM
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QUOTE
I meant just all PCs, not the whole world. As for being a Rigger, outside of a Control Rig, what else to do you need? Can Adept powers substitute for any other cyberware you might want? Boosted reflexes and such.

"I like this and so must you" worked so well with combat hacking in SR5. I think the system is stronger if it suports different play styles. Nobody's stopping you from enforcing all-awakened characters in your home group, but demanding the entire system be changed like this seems not like a good business strategy.

Also, you need a datajack, a nanohive, rating 3 rigger nanos, a couple genemods and reaction enhancement can't hurt, and a good commlink, maybe implanted. Smartlink has nice synergies too, as does an orientation system. Few, if any, of this can be substituted by Adept powers.
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Titan
post Jul 26 2017, 07:56 PM
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QUOTE (JanessaVR @ Jul 26 2017, 01:26 PM) *
I meant just all PCs, not the whole world. As for being a Rigger, outside of a Control Rig, what else to do you need? Can Adept powers substitute for any other cyberware you might want? Boosted reflexes and such.


Well, with the Awakened requirement, it would likely just be better to go Technomancer and gain rigging capability through submerging (MMRI echoes, if my memory serves).

With vehicle piloting usually falling into "cake icing" rather "main course" focus on runs, giving up 1/3 to 1/2 of your required Awakened stat for such a low priority action, there will be whole new ways to do the job - and better.
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binarywraith
post Jul 27 2017, 06:10 AM
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QUOTE (JanessaVR @ Jul 26 2017, 01:26 PM) *
I meant just all PCs, not the whole world. As for being a Rigger, outside of a Control Rig, what else to do you need? Can Adept powers substitute for any other cyberware you might want? Boosted reflexes and such.


Or, I could spend (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) on that cyberware, and spend my time and energy (aka karma) learning things that are actually relevant to the tactical specialty I want to pursue.
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Blade
post Jul 27 2017, 08:05 AM
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There's also the option of unifying karma and nuyens into a single XP concept and having boosts that have a XP cost and can be explained to be gear, cyber or magic depending on the player's preferences (and verisimilitude I guess).

If you want to have two distinct approaches, you need to accept that there'll be "balance" issue (or at least complaints about balance issue)... Unless you have hordes of testers and ways to receive and process all the test data they generate (the way it's done to balance online games with asymetric characters/factions)
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Kren Cooper
post Jul 27 2017, 11:26 AM
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Going back to the original question, I would take the following additional steps, if I was a paranoid runner hiding in plain sight (and bare in mind I'm an SR3 player, and don't know much about 4, so hoping the terminology fits).

Task #1

Set up a commlink that faces out, that identifies as your house node - Buried in the chimney or somewhere outside your RFID Faraday cage defences. It's inner connection ports via fibre optic to a setup in your attic / cellar. There you have a miniature version of your house, with electronics for a complete set of your utilities ripped out and wired into a "honey trap".

Pete the Petty Purloiner is casing out your joint, finds a signal that looks legit, runs his script-kiddy hax and finds *exactly* what he expects - controls for front and back door, toaster, microwave, home entertainment unit and trid etc. He runs his script, gets the "ok, unlocked" signal from the front door control.... he's unaware that he's actually only opened the front door on the little dolls house you have in the attic with your micro-network of rating 3 locks and home appliances salvaged from junk yards. Which is monitored by a camera, attached to your real system, which sends the pre-alert signal to wolverine. They roll the response unit, and get to the house just as Pete reaches the front door and finds it still locked. "BLAM BLAM BLAM! Stop!" One dead Pete, house still secure.

If you don't have stuff that everyone else has, it makes you stand out from the crowd. If you are the only house on your street that doesn't have wifi nodes visible, it makes people wonder why, and what's going on. And they either investigate themselves, or sell the info to a bunch of aspiring runners saying "there be fat loot inside, yaaar!".

Task #2
Spray the inner sides of the external walls with a plastic layer, from floor to ceiling. Build a thin wall of light structural material around the inner side of every external wall of your house, from floor to ceiling, and ensure that it is sealed. If the house is big enough, build it like a bathtub, so it encompases the floor too. You loose a chunk of internal volume, but if it's a nice enough area, that shouldn't be too tough. Each room is now 4" smaller on any external side, and the floor is a higher than normal - with a void all the way around. Fill the void with water. Install a water sensor, just below the top of the wall.
Any nasty interloper tries to drill in through a wall, they first of all set of the sensor and alert the security company, and secondly have to deal with high pressure water shooting out of the hole they made. For shits and giggles, mix the dye they use when transporting cash in security vans with the water, to leave your attacker stained a bright colour and easier to track (or add tagants to the liquid for a more subtle approach).

Both of those I think would fit your criteria of being both subtle and legal, and easy to do to the inside of the house without betraying anything outside.
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JanessaVR
post Jul 27 2017, 05:01 PM
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QUOTE (Kren Cooper @ Jul 27 2017, 03:26 AM) *
Going back to the original question, I would take the following additional steps, if I was a paranoid runner hiding in plain sight (and bare in mind I'm an SR3 player, and don't know much about 4, so hoping the terminology fits).

Task #1

This one has real possibilities, as you have a point - the one house on the block without apparent wireless access to all the stuff inside? A bit suspicious. So, give them something they'd expect to find. And if they actually take the bait...well, hopefully it keeps them busy long enough for the wolvies to show up and give them a case of lead poisoning. Though I'm not sure I'd need an actual "doll house" of the real house. I could just mount all the Rating 3 door controls and household appliances (or the ripped-out wireless access components for those at least) to a piece of plywood in the attic and label them "Front Door," "Back Door," "Microwave Oven," "Coffee Maker," etc.


QUOTE (Kren Cooper @ Jul 27 2017, 03:26 AM) *
Task #2

Ok, I have to give you A+ marks for creativity here, but this seems a bit more effort than even I'd like to put into security.


EDIT:

I've updated the first post and implemented this idea. Thanks much! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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JanessaVR
post Jul 27 2017, 06:35 PM
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QUOTE (Blade @ Jul 27 2017, 12:05 AM) *
There's also the option of unifying karma and nuyens into a single XP concept and having boosts that have a XP cost and can be explained to be gear, cyber or magic depending on the player's preferences (and verisimilitude I guess).

Have a look here.
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Sengir
post Jul 27 2017, 10:08 PM
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QUOTE (Kren Cooper @ Jul 27 2017, 01:26 PM) *
Task #2
Spray the inner sides of the external walls with a plastic layer, from floor to ceiling. Build a thin wall of light structural material around the inner side of every external wall of your house, from floor to ceiling, and ensure that it is sealed. If the house is big enough, build it like a bathtub, so it encompases the floor too. You loose a chunk of internal volume, but if it's a nice enough area, that shouldn't be too tough. Each room is now 4" smaller on any external side, and the floor is a higher than normal - with a void all the way around. Fill the void with water. Install a water sensor, just below the top of the wall.
Any nasty interloper tries to drill in through a wall, they first of all set of the sensor and alert the security company, and secondly have to deal with high pressure water shooting out of the hole they made. For shits and giggles, mix the dye they use when transporting cash in security vans with the water, to leave your attacker stained a bright colour and easier to track (or add tagants to the liquid for a more subtle approach).

Both of those I think would fit your criteria of being both subtle and legal, and easy to do to the inside of the house without betraying anything outside.

My first reaction was to point out that this is hilariously overcomplicated when simple metal foil attached to something measuring impedance would do -- not to mention the weight of the water pushing against the walls. But then I remembered FAB, a "water wall" would make a great astral barrier if filled with that.

In fact, I can imagine something like that being available off the shelf: All you'd need is a kind of sandwich panel with hollow space inside for the water/FAB solution and connectors along the edge to let it circulate. And if you limit the water layer to a centimeter instead of four inches, a 1x1 meter panel would be 10 kilos of water, that's less than ceramic tiles. I think I'll use that idea (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Tanegar
post Feb 22 2018, 09:27 PM
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QUOTE (JanessaVR @ Jul 23 2017, 06:26 PM) *
Astral Security
[list]
[*]The 1st ward is a basic ward, 1 cm inside that is a Charged ward, and 1cm inside that is another standard ward. So from the outside and the inside, the ward is reasonably strong, but otherwise unremarkable, but it's got a nasty surprise in the middle if you penetrate the outer layer.
[*]There are 2 inner wards encompassing just the house. Both of these are Force 6.

Wards explicitly cannot be layered or nested. See Street Magic, p. 124.

QUOTE
[*]The 1st inner ward is a custom advanced ward, "Wireless Ward," which blocks all wireless signals from crossing in either direction.
[*]The 2nd inner ward is also a custom advanced ward, "Intrusion Alarm Ward," and will sound an alert if mini-drones poke their noses in to spy on the interior of the house or if someone drills holes in the walls to insert mini-cameras through them.

Your GM would have to be either incredibly generous, or completely ignorant of SR magic to allow either of these. I've never seen any hint that magic can interact with radio signals; and wards implicitly only react to astral forms, which drones don't have. There's also the fact that you can't have nested wards.
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JanessaVR
post Feb 22 2018, 10:16 PM
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QUOTE (Tanegar @ Feb 22 2018, 01:27 PM) *
Wards explicitly cannot be layered or nested. See Street Magic, p. 124.

Not so fast. Wards are walls, not solid "boxes." See here:

SR4 Street Magic, "Wards", p. 123
"Wards (see p. 194, SR4A) are the astral equivalent of the oldest form of security: the wall."

As for nesting them, see here:

SR4 Street Magic, "Wards are Exclusive", p. 124
"Wards cannot be layered or overlap in the same area of astral space. Magicians seeking redundant astral security measures will often put a series of wards in place, much like a gauntlet an intruder would have to pass through, but they cannot place multiple wards on the same space in an effort to make intrusion exponentially more difficult. Attempting to place a new ward where it would intersect with another ward results in the new ward simply failing." [emphasized words mine]

My wards, as explicitly stated, do not touch or intersect, therefore they are not occupying the same area of astral space. They're arranged "Russian Doll" style. There's the outermost one, than a smaller one a bit further inside, and then another smaller one still further inside. Exactly as the rules state, it's "a gauntlet an intruder would have to pass through" but their boundaries don't intersect each other.


QUOTE (Tanegar @ Feb 22 2018, 01:27 PM) *
Your GM would have to be either incredibly generous, or completely ignorant of SR magic to allow either of these. I've never seen any hint that magic can interact with radio signals; and wards implicitly only react to astral forms, which drones don't have. There's also the fact that you can't have nested wards.

[shrugs] Then I'll make them custom spells that do those things that are secured by Quickening. Same end results, different means.

As for magic interacting with EM signals, see the Interference spell (SR4 Street Magic, p. 173) and Pulse (SR4 Street Magic, p. 174). Looks like magic interacts with radio signals just fine.
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Tanegar
post Feb 22 2018, 11:13 PM
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QUOTE (JanessaVR @ Feb 22 2018, 05:16 PM) *
SR4 Street Magic, "Wards are Exclusive", p. 124
"Wards cannot be layered or overlap in the same area of astral space. ...but they cannot place multiple wards on the same space in an effort to make intrusion exponentially more difficult.

Thank you for proving my point.

QUOTE
My wards, as explicitly stated, do not touch or intersect, therefore they are not occupying the same area of astral space. They're arranged "Russian Doll" style. There's the outermost one, than a smaller one a bit further inside, and then another smaller one still further inside. Exactly as the rules state, it's "a gauntlet an intruder would have to pass through" but their boundaries don't intersect each other.

The outermost ward includes the space warded by the second and third. The middle ward includes the space warded by the innermost. Your GM's mileage may vary, but I would never allow this arrangement.



QUOTE
[shrugs] Then I'll make them custom spells that do those things that are secured by Quickening. Same end results, different means.

As for magic interacting with EM signals, see the Interference spell (SR4 Street Magic, p. 173) and Pulse (SR4 Street Magic, p. 174). Looks like magic interacts with radio signals just fine.

Fair enough, but nested wards are still illegal.
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JanessaVR
post Feb 22 2018, 11:21 PM
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QUOTE (Tanegar @ Feb 22 2018, 03:13 PM) *
The outermost ward includes the space warded by the second and third. The middle ward includes the space warded by the innermost. Your GM's mileage may vary, but I would never allow this arrangement.

That's only true if wards aren't walls, but are instead "filled-in/solid boxes/cubes" (I'm trying to think of the most appropriate term to describe this). But as long as wards are walls, my approach is completely valid.
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Tanegar
post Feb 23 2018, 12:35 AM
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QUOTE (JanessaVR @ Feb 22 2018, 06:21 PM) *
That's only true if wards aren't walls, but are instead "filled-in/solid boxes/cubes" (I'm trying to think of the most appropriate term to describe this). But as long as wards are walls, my approach is completely valid.

Wards don't need to be volumetric in order to be exclusive. I have no idea how you're getting the idea that they do. The rules are explicit and unambiguous: "Wards cannot be layered or overlap in the same area of astral space. Magicians seeking redundant astral security measures will often put a series of wards in place, much like a gauntlet an intruder would have to pass through, but they cannot place multiple wards on the same space in an effort to make intrusion exponentially more diffcult. Attempting to place a new ward where it would intersect with another ward results in the new ward simply failing." You cannot place a ward around another ward, because that would result in layered wards, which cannot exist.
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JanessaVR
post Feb 23 2018, 12:38 AM
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QUOTE (Tanegar @ Feb 22 2018, 04:35 PM) *
Wards don't need to be volumetric in order to be exclusive. I have no idea how you're getting the idea that they do. The rules are explicit and unambiguous: "Wards cannot be layered or overlap in the same area of astral space. Magicians seeking redundant astral security measures will often put a series of wards in place, much like a gauntlet an intruder would have to pass through, but they cannot place multiple wards on the same space in an effort to make intrusion exponentially more diffcult. Attempting to place a new ward where it would intersect with another ward results in the new ward simply failing." You cannot place a ward around another ward, because that would result in layered wards, which cannot exist.

Look at this way - the rules are obviously there to stop "munchkiny" ward rating inflation. If, instead of 3x separate Rating 6 wards, I tried to claim that I had stacked all 3 directly on top of each other and thus any attacker had to beat a Force 18 ward to get through, yeah, that would be cheating. In my setup, if you can beat a Force 6 ward, you're getting in - but, you'll have to do it three separate times, which buys me some extra time at least.

If my interpretation of the rules wasn't correct, then the "series of wards, much like a gauntlet an intruder would have to pass through" scheme wouldn't be possible, but it is.

Imagine the following scenario. You want to ward a 100 meter cube. The first ward is a 100 meter cube. The second is 1 meter inside that one, forming a 98 meter cube. The third is one meter inside the second one, forming a 96 meter cube. None of those "hollow" cubes are touching each other. Someone trying to batter their way in from the outside has to break through three separate walls (which is what wards are) to get to the center.
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Tanegar
post Feb 23 2018, 12:43 AM
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QUOTE (JanessaVR @ Feb 22 2018, 07:38 PM) *
If my interpretation of the rules wasn't correct, then the "series of wards, much like a gauntlet an intruder would have to pass through" scheme wouldn't be possible, but it is.

False premise: you're assuming "series of wards" means what you want it to mean. You can ward an elevator shaft, and the hallway leading off of it, and a room off of the hallway, forcing an intruder to deal with three separate wards; but none of those wards can share volume or overlap in 3-dimensional space.
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JanessaVR
post Feb 23 2018, 12:50 AM
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QUOTE (Tanegar @ Feb 22 2018, 04:43 PM) *
False premise: you're assuming "series of wards" means what you want it to mean. You can ward an elevator shaft, and the hallway leading off of it, and a room off of the hallway, forcing an intruder to deal with three separate wards; but none of those wards can share volume or overlap in 3-dimensional space.

A completely useless warding scheme. Physical walls don't exist in astral space. Just fly around to the room you're trying to get into and ignore the elevator shaft and hallway. Well, ok, yes, the room is warded, but the other two wards are useless.

See also this entry:

SR4 Street Magic, "Metaplanar Shortcut", p. 94
"Spirits that find their physical or astral movement impeded by a dual-natured mana barrier may take a quick trip to the metaplanes and back again to the other side of the barrier. This “shortcut” may only be taken if the spirit’s conjurer is on the other side of the barrier (taking up one service) or if the spirit has been to the location on the other side before (a reason to never allow a spirit into your private sanctuary). Free spirits, who are not restricted to any conjurer’s presence, often use this shortcut for near-instantaneous worldwide travel." [emphasized words mine]

If wards were not walls, with "empty space" inside them, this little trick couldn't work.
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Tanegar
post Feb 23 2018, 02:08 AM
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It's a perfectly effective warding scheme; you might be able to bypass the elevator and hallway wards via astral projection, but what will you do once you get into the room? You can't pick up the thing you're being paid to steal, much less carry it back out with you.

As I noted before, wards do not need to be volumetric in order to be exclusive. You cannot have a ward that exists, even partially, inside another ward. A spirit's metaplanar shortcut does not in any way demonstrate that you can.

QUOTE (Street Magic)
Wards cannot be layered


QUOTE (Street Magic)
Wards cannot be layered


QUOTE (Street Magic)
Wards cannot be layered


I don't understand why you're having difficulty with this.
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JanessaVR
post Feb 23 2018, 02:17 AM
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QUOTE (Tanegar @ Feb 22 2018, 06:08 PM) *
It's a perfectly effective warding scheme; you might be able to bypass the elevator and hallway wards via astral projection, but what will you do once you get into the room? You can't pick up the thing you're being paid to steal, much less carry it back out with you.

As I noted before, wards do not need to be volumetric in order to be exclusive. You cannot have a ward that exists, even partially, inside another ward. A spirit's metaplanar shortcut does not in any way demonstrate that you can.

I don't understand why you're having difficulty with this.

At this point, I guess we just disagree. You have your interpretation of the rules, I have mine.
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Sengir
post Mar 2 2018, 08:45 PM
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QUOTE (Tanegar @ Feb 23 2018, 03:08 AM) *
As I noted before, wards do not need to be volumetric in order to be exclusive.

While I can see how one can read the sentence that way, such a restriction would simultaneously make warding way too annoying and be too easy to circumvent: It would make warding a terrible process because even the tiniest ward inside the warded volume would make the classic "box ward" fail, so security mages would just be trolled forever. And at the same time everybody who really wants to layer wards could still do it by assembling the "box" from six individual walls around an inner ward -- none of the individual wards encompass the volume occupied by the inner ward, therefore it would be 100% legal even under your interpretation.
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