This is my standard approach to home and Matrix security. I typically put all this on a single page to give to the GM (when I’m a player). This assumes my PC owns a suburban home, usually in a B Zone, and with the Quiet Neighborhood Lifestyle Quality (SR4 Runner’s Companion, p. 162). This is meant to be a SINner residence, not a shadowrunner safe house, and all of its security measures should be legal.

UPDATED on 03/22/2018

Physical Security

• The walls are brick/plascrete [Armor Rating 12], and the windows are armored glass [Armor Rating 8].
• Inside the outer walls (and floor and ceiling) is a wireless blocking layer (excepting the attic, which is deliberately left "undefended" against wireless access). The doors and window coverings also incorporate a wireless blocking layer.
• The inside walls (and floor and ceiling) are coated with a layer of IR-opaque paint.
• The armored windows are double-paned with a vacuum between the 2 panes. The outside is also coated with a film to interfere with laser microphones.
• The doors are also armored [Rating 8], and incorporate two separate locks. The first is a purely mechanical key lock. The second is a tamper-resistant maglock with both a keypad and a smartcard reader. Sensors (only) from these locks are connected to CHN #2 (below), to register when they open or close. These same sensors are on all the windows.
• The outside of the house and grounds are covered by multiple hidden cameras, each discretely connected to CHN #2 (below) with via a wired connection; these cameras also have night vision ability. The software monitoring them includes facial recognition ability and has a "white list" of approved residents and visitors on record.
• Wolverine Security (they of the shoot-first-and-ask-questions-later policy, see SR3 SOTA 2064, p. 73) have been contracted for security monitoring and response. Their monitoring software has been installed on CHN #2 (below). If any alarms trip, big guys with guns will show up shortly.

Matrix Security

• The house has multiple CHNs (SR4 Runner’s Companion, p. 150). On all of them, Analyze runs at all times to assist the Firewall in detecting hacking attempts.
• CHN #1 – Home Management: This device is not connected to the Matrix. All household devices and drones are slaved to it. Rating 6, except for Signal 1 (40 meter range).
• CHN #2 – Matrix Access: This device is connected to the Matrix (via a land line), but has no access to any devices inside the house, except for any commlinks present in the house. As the whole house is effectively a Faraday Cage, the only way to access the Matrix from within the house is to wirelessly connect a commlink to this device. Rating 6, except for Signal 1 (40 meter range).
• CHN #3 – Honey Trap: This one lives in the attic, which has been deliberately kept open to wireless access. A run-of-the-mill Rating 3 CHN (with standard wireless Matrix access) has been installed here, along with a fake setup of wireless home appliances and door locks slaved to it; these are just the ripped-out wireless components of a variety of household devices, all bolted to a large sheet of plywood and labeled appropriately. If any of these devices are ever accessed, it sends a silent alarm (via a wired connection) to CHN #2, alerting Wolverine Security's monitoring software that someone is trying to hack their way into the house.

Astral Security

• There are 3 wards encompassing the entire property, starting just inside the property line. All of these are Force 6.
• The 1st ward is a basic ward, 1 cm inside that is a Charged ward, and 1cm inside that is another standard ward. So from the outside and the inside, the ward is reasonably strong, but otherwise unremarkable, but it's got a nasty surprise in the middle if you penetrate the outer layer.
• There are 2 custom Quickened spells encompassing just the house. Both of these are Force 6.
• The 1st custom Quickened spell, "Wireless Barrier," blocks all wireless signals from crossing in either direction. Note: this does not encompass the attic, so as to not interfere with the Honey Trap.
• The 2nd custom Quickened spell, "Intrusion Alarm," will sound an alert if mini-drones poke their noses in to spy on the interior of the house or if someone drills holes in the walls to insert mini-cameras through them.
• The astral links to the wards and Quickened spells have been rerouted (multiple times each) into the metaplanes (see SR4 Street Magic, p. 132).
• Awakened Ivy (SR4 Street Magic, p. 126) has been encouraged to grow liberally all over the outside of the house.
• The entire property is aspected to my tradition (background count of 2), as per the Aspected Domain Lifestyle Quality in SR4 Runner's Companion, p. 161. This is a bit of a gamble - if any intruders aren't members of my tradition, they're hindered and I'm buffed. If they are members of my tradition, well, we're both buffed.

From the outside it appears to be a normal, middle-class home, but it’s really more of an armored bunker. Can anyone suggest any improvements?

don't know if still exists but there used to be plants that could be used to block astral access.

I haven't got to that point in relearning shadowrun magic yet. So I don't know if in astral form you can still pass through solid barriers.

That depends.

What is the purpose of all this security?

Are you trying to make your home impenetrable? Don't waste your, or your characters, time. That won't happen. I'm not overly familiar with 4e's rules, but I am fairly certain a proper amount of explosive, or an anti-vehicle missile will get someone determined enough in. Well, assuming that leaves anything to enter.

Are you trying to make it as secure as possible? If so, you need to decide your own point of diminishing returns. I think you have gone far past that. But I am not you. I could point out all the week points in your system, due mostly to understanding real world security, but I will restrict myself to one question / point.

What is the point of not hooking up your locks, or your Home Management system to the Matrix? I know this looks like a dumb question. But hear me out. The point of a security system, at least 9 times out of 10, is to monitor a property when there is no one there, and alert people when something goes wrong. This system can't alert anyone. If your doorlocks get hacked? No one knows. Your Home Management system detects an intruder? No one knows. This system can't perform it's (usual) function. Now, maybe you will say that the two CDNs communicate with each other, but that means the Home Management network is connected to the Matrix, only through the other CDN.

Okay, I lied, one more point. If I had a character with a interest in hackiing your house, I would just take the cheapest commlink I could get away with, with the greatest Signal I could get (again, I'll point out that I am not overly familiar with the 4e rules) link that with my hacking device (likely a cyberdeck) and take the 'link and toss it on your roof, or in the bushes, or duct tape up in the tree, or whatever. Then I only need to be in mutual Signal range with that commlink, since it is in mutual Signal range with your house.

On the other hand, if you are trying to roleplay an overly paranoid character, keep up the good work!

Argh. Totally forgot to list astral security. Will fix that, thanks for the reminder.

Heavy on the Astral. That's really, really expensive to maintain.

Also, on Matrix: If you have Nuyen to throw around, consider adding a bottleneck commlink behind the non-off-grid node, and ice it like whoa, optimize for analyze and custom-build it with the best parts you can find (as Firewall isn't illegal to have up to 10, consider a firewall 10), to act as the house's Matrix bottleneck. Depends on how much money you can afford to spend.

If you still have money to throw around, invest in a few pressure pads and motion-tracker sensors to secure the space around the safehouse. Hardwire them to the in-house node.

Titan has a point if you want a conventional home security. You could hook a normally inactive commlink to the HSN and script the node to activate the commlink (though script rules are very muddy) and send a distress signal if a security incident occurs. You'd need an agent to oversee that, though.

If you want a security system for a safehouse, though, keeping it as dark as possible is a good idea.

The 2070s aren’t exactly a safe place, so the main thrust of this is to make me pretty immune to street crime or random hackers. I remember reading about one of the Jackpointers who was miffed that someone cut him off in traffic, so he tracked the guy down from his license plate, found his home address, and then basically trashed his house by remote control while he was still at work. That was a major motivation for my severing control of any household devices from the Matrix. Also, if any prowling street punks get the urge to burglarize my house, I want them kept firmly out. If someone can actually order an airstrike on my house (and is inclined to do so), I have bigger problems to worry about.



That’s actually a good point. But the middle ground is to allow a sensor connection (only) to CHN #2, but not allow it to be able to actually control the door locks. See if they open/close, sure, but not control them. That and some outside cameras connected by wires only into CHN #2, and the home security system can monitor the place. I can take that a step further and get a contract with Wolverine Security and allow them access to the video feeds and door sensors. They’re the guys with the reputation of “Stop! [BANG! BANG! BANG!] Or we’ll shoot! [BANG! BANG! BANG!].”



That’s a pretty neat idea. However, CHN #2 links to the matrix via land line only, and your commlink sitting in a tree outside can’t reach it wirelessly because the house is a Faraday Cage. That was the whole purpose behind setting that up – “drive by hackings” won’t work.

You forget - I always play magicians.

So I can do the warding myself. And 3 x Force 6 wards = 18 Karma for permanent wards. I can swing that.

And this was meant to be my main residence, not a safe house. Also, given that my CHN is Rating 6, can I actually run Rating 10 programs on it? I didn't think you could do that. I'll go double-check...

EDIT:

SR4A, p. 222: "System limits the rating of programs running on the device, and sets the limit on most devices for the number of programs that can be run without a Response drop." So I'm pretty sure I can only run Rating 6 programs on my Rating 6 CHNs.

Firewall is an attribute of the OS. It can go to rating 10 even on a rating 6 system. It's not really a program in the sense of other programs like Attack or Browse. Furthermore, with the program options from Unwired, you can actually run programs higher than rating 6 on a rating 6 system. Specifically Optimization (pg 115 Unwired). It will cost a lot unless you have a hacker buddy writing the code for you but it is an option.

Looks like a Mundane Troll with a Sledgehammer and a bad attitude has no worries whatsoever about your security system...

What should I up the Armor Rating of the walls and doors to? Also, that monthly service contract with Wolverine Security is looking better and better.

SOTA 2064, p. 73:
"Wolverine has a similar lousy track record of excessive force and police abuse cases, except they don’t seem to discriminate based on metatype—they’re equal opportunity ass-kickers. Wolverine is especially notorious for their gang-suppression policies, which typically involve solving gang problems with lethal hails of bullets."

Hell, that's practically an advertisement of effectiveness and just the attitude I'm looking for in private security in the 2070's. The perfect solution to a Mundane Troll with a Sledgehammer...

I'm assuming that I don't have Super Hacker ™ at my beck and call, and am trying for the best I can reasonably purchase without having to resort to "special contacts" in the hacker community or underworld. This is my primary SINner residence, and I want things to be as legal and aboveboard as possible.

Well, if you don't mind the collateral damage (which will be your stuff) ...

Well, I did make the house bulletproof.

There is no bulletproof, only varying degrees of bullet resistance. But okay. Some sensors in the perimeter would still be a good idea, for instance tosend a silent alarm to the local wolvies.

Depends on the area. A room at a no-tell motel without discreet wireless access isn't strange. If only one house in a suburban neighborhood doesn't have wireless, it stands out as if it had a neon sign flashing "Look Here!" over and over.



That was my point. There is a line where any further modifications just don't do anything for you.



You are absolutely correct. I forgot about that.

Okay... That has me thinking "outside the box" so to speak. You didn't post it specifically, but I assume you lined the ceiling and floor as well? If not, then it is a wasted effort. If so, you have to go full bore Prepper / Survivalist. Composting toilet, and carry your water in.
I'm thinking a small crawler drone, outfitted with a cheap commlink, pulling fiber optic cable up through your sewer drain.
How sad will you be when your toilet is hacking your home?

Also bear in mind that unless building methods have changed in the next 70 years (quite possible, but impossible to predict) suburban houses have crawl spaces that a metahuman can access, set up gear, drill a hole through the floor / ceiling and insert the necessary gear (I am thinking antenna, but the rules might require a commlink) hardwired to a device outside your house to access your network with. If you think you would spot it, since wires / pipes / ducts run though interior walls, it is easy to figure out where to drill up / down into an interior wall.

I totally acknowledge this. I've been trying to clarify my position in further posts here, as this is my effort to get the best security setup I can legally purchase for a SINner lifestyle. Anything past that, yes, that's probably the point of diminishing returns. It may not be perfect, but why make things easy for at least the more garden-variety burglars/hackers?



Yes, you're right, I didn't post about wireless blocking layers in the floor/ceiling, but they're meant to be there as well. I'll be doing an update to the first post here probably later today to incorporate ideas from this thread so far, but I'm having another quick look through Arsenal and Unwired first and see if any security devices look like good additions; hermit has suggested perimeter sensors linked to silent alarms, which is a very good idea.

As for the crawl spaces...hmmm. I was thinking of a 1-story, 2-bedroom house (2nd bedroom for a magical lodge, or I could actually live with a 1-bedroom). I can dispense with an attic or basement, but yes, air and water intake/outflow are further issues. Any thoughts on trying to secure those? Theoretically, I could come up with some custom spells for that, and Quicken them.

As far as drilling though the wall, couldn't I effectively design the wireless blocking layer (usually a fine metal mesh) to function as part of the alarm system? It would be some extra effort to build it and set it up, but surely a monitoring system could look for breaks in those meshes/grids, which is what would happen if you drilled a hole in one?

I work for a security company doing various things. The wire mesh that could alert you if cut already is out there just not used the way you talked about, in window screens. A little tweaking you could probably set them up to react to shorts also.

Sounds like all the construction needed to build that would make it a big ol' target to anyone paying attention.

You'd be better off spending a tenth the money and having a couple safehouses scattered around town that you pay a couple well connected friends to keep on the down low.

Security by obscurity is your friend. Fort Knox just makes anyone paying attention keenly interested in what you're defending.

Like I said, this is meant to be a suburban SINner residence, not a shadowrunner safe house. Purchasing the best legal security I can isn't likely to stand out all that much in a dystopian world with high crime rates. And it's meant to look unremarkable from the outside.

Disclaimer: We are about to go fully into the realm of GM acceptance. Technically, we were always there, but we were working within the written rules. From here on out, we are restricted to what the GM knows, thinks they know, and / or are willing to research.

Disclaimer 2: I am basing everything on modern building practices, and modern understanding of electronics / electrical.



Technically? Yes. Well, maybe. Realistically? Probably not.

As you said, the electronic shielding is a wire mesh. Because of interior walls, wiring, plumbing, etc., you will never get an ideal shielding with zero gaps. Don't worry, it'll still function as written, and prevent signals entering or leaving.
Once it is made, and properly grounded, there are two basic methods to monitor its integrity. Resistance, or power (voltage / amperage / wattage). You will not be able to use power, because every time the shielding intercepts a signal and shunts it to ground, it generates power. Nothing major, but in a world where wireless signals are saturated, you will never get a measurement that is stable enough to compare to what happens if one or two "links" get broken.
The other choice is resistance. Technically, once the mesh is set, it will have a set resistance. Any loss of metal will change the resistance value. While not as variable as measuring power, there are many factors involved that can change the resistance of the mesh. Temperature is one. But the power flowing through the mesh is another. (R = I / E, when current or voltage change, the resistance changes.) It isn't realistic to believe you can get a measurement that is stable enough to to detect when one or two "links" are broken.

The mesh Savar mentions (I'm not aware of it, so I do not know anything about it) could work if you line that inside the wireless blocking layer... But I could only guess at the cost. And I am not certain if you will be able to get the complete coverage you would need to be certain it would have to be breached in order for anyone to breach your wireless blocking layer.

Of course, if metal framing becomes the standard, rather than stick framing (wood), that could all be moot.



As for monitoring plumbing and ventilation:
Ventilation is somewhat easy. Anything that can monitor objects passing while not being air tight will work. Light / laser sensors work wonderfully in this regard.
Plumbing gets a bit more tricky. There aren't any object detection systems I know of that wouldn't be foiled by the water, or the waste being piped out. You could put a variation of a macerator pump on your sewer out that would effectively act as a gate preventing any objects entering that way... But it is far from bulletproof, and easily physically bypassed. It would be fairly easy to put a simple sensor to check that the pump is still intact (a LED in series with the motor coil would let you know if the motor no longer works), but it is far from foolproof. You will get some false positives, like when the pump just fails naturally. But it could be used as an indicator.

Bottom line is: You will never be able to make your home impenetrable. You have to decide what level is enough for you. I would consider moving to be much easier, and less stressful.

Hmmm...I'm starting to think some custom-researched Quickened spells are the right way to go here, as it looks like tech just isn't up to the task of adequate home security. Another benefit - people won't know these protections are there (unless they breach my 3 outer wards, which will hide all astral activity on my property, and of course they have to be Awakened as well). Some ideas:

• Wireless Signal Containment (in place of a physical Faraday Cage)
• Detect Perimeter Breach (for those pesky sewer surveillance bugs crawling into the house through the plumbing or people drilling through my walls to insert micro-cameras)

Honestly, as a GM I'd caution players against making infallible spells that mimic electronic surveillance, because if players have them, as a rule, NPC have them, too. And that would make the game even more magicrun than it already is.

Besides, anchored spell are one passed antimagic test away from failing. Electronics need more effort to be effectively disabled. Set your perimeter up as a small network of sub-nodes and it'll take a hacker days to take care of it - hopefully failing the one toll you need to catch them eventually.

I don't like that kind of detailed approach, because most of us already don't know half about security measures and counter-measures today, and I don't want to expect players to know everything about what they could be in the 2070s. It also avoids having player jump in the rabbit-hole of ever-expanding level of detail in search of a perfect solution (that makes you wonder why nobody is already using it).

Also, security is often more limited by the usage than by the setup.

That's why in my games, I prefer to abstract all this with security ratings and limit these to the rating of the associated skill (either active or knowledge skill, depending on what the player has) of whoever setup the security, and adjust it with the rating of the associated skill of the user (so that a clueless user will have -2 due to bad usage, while a knowledgeable user can improve a basic security setup).

Actually, I've already done that deliberately. Fed up with ubiquitous RFID tags everywhere, one of my old characters (a few years back) researched the Detect RFID Tags and Demolish RFID Tags spells, then posted them for free (anonymously) all over the Matrix. This not only ensures that all of my new characters always have access to these spells, but so do a lot of other people who don't like the damn little bugs.

As for new spells, I'm actually thinking these could fall under advanced wards - see "Wards With a Twist," SR4 Street Magic, pp. 125 - 126. These aren't complex ideas - "this is a wall that stops wireless signals from crossing it" or "if anything crosses this line, especially if it looks kinda like this or that, sing out an alarm." As we already have Alarm, Charged, Masking, Polarized, and Trap Wards, I don't think this is reaching all that much.

As for MagicRun, heck, they should go ahead and embrace this. Go the Earthdawn route and declare that all PCs are Awakened by default - it's just a question of which kind of Awakened. It would put an end to all the "Mundane versus Awakened PCs" issues.

And that stupid Cyberpunk idea.

Eh, you can always take a point of Essence's worth of cyberware, just don't go overboard. Let the muggles cyber up to the gills.

I think the game you're referring to is WoD.

I guess, though, any SR GM should take this as a reminder to make good use of Background count on mage characters. Unless you want to play Mage: the Shadowing, I guess.

Mage: the Shadowing...I love it! You've managed to succinctly sum up my "always be a magician" play style for Shadowrun.

That's why I always take cyberware for almost all of my characters. I think the only I didn't do that for was a Physical Adept. The combat mage I worked up has 1.99 points of cyber, The technomancers each have only 1 point. Mainly datajack and Cerebral/Cerebellum Booster.

As a concept, I embrace this idea. (I love Earthdawn, both world and system.)

But the reality is a different beast. For the world to go "all awakened" would require another paradigm shift, likely to the 7th age. And we all know how well the current publishers did with Crash 2.0...

Unless you are saying that PCs (only) are required to be Awakened... I'm not sure how I feel about that. I am a Rigger at heart...

Either way, the gear and magic system would have to be gone over with a fine tooth comb to reduce overlap, and ensure some sort of balance. I'm afraid that this requires 6th Edition at least.

I meant just all PCs, not the whole world. As for being a Rigger, outside of a Control Rig, what else to do you need? Can Adept powers substitute for any other cyberware you might want? Boosted reflexes and such.

"I like this and so must you" worked so well with combat hacking in SR5. I think the system is stronger if it suports different play styles. Nobody's stopping you from enforcing all-awakened characters in your home group, but demanding the entire system be changed like this seems not like a good business strategy.

Also, you need a datajack, a nanohive, rating 3 rigger nanos, a couple genemods and reaction enhancement can't hurt, and a good commlink, maybe implanted. Smartlink has nice synergies too, as does an orientation system. Few, if any, of this can be substituted by Adept powers.

Well, with the Awakened requirement, it would likely just be better to go Technomancer and gain rigging capability through submerging (MMRI echoes, if my memory serves).

With vehicle piloting usually falling into "cake icing" rather "main course" focus on runs, giving up 1/3 to 1/2 of your required Awakened stat for such a low priority action, there will be whole new ways to do the job - and better.

Or, I could spend on that cyberware, and spend my time and energy (aka karma) learning things that are actually relevant to the tactical specialty I want to pursue.

There's also the option of unifying karma and nuyens into a single XP concept and having boosts that have a XP cost and can be explained to be gear, cyber or magic depending on the player's preferences (and verisimilitude I guess).

If you want to have two distinct approaches, you need to accept that there'll be "balance" issue (or at least complaints about balance issue)... Unless you have hordes of testers and ways to receive and process all the test data they generate (the way it's done to balance online games with asymetric characters/factions)

Going back to the original question, I would take the following additional steps, if I was a paranoid runner hiding in plain sight (and bare in mind I'm an SR3 player, and don't know much about 4, so hoping the terminology fits).

Task #1

Set up a commlink that faces out, that identifies as your house node - Buried in the chimney or somewhere outside your RFID Faraday cage defences. It's inner connection ports via fibre optic to a setup in your attic / cellar. There you have a miniature version of your house, with electronics for a complete set of your utilities ripped out and wired into a "honey trap".

Pete the Petty Purloiner is casing out your joint, finds a signal that looks legit, runs his script-kiddy hax and finds *exactly* what he expects - controls for front and back door, toaster, microwave, home entertainment unit and trid etc. He runs his script, gets the "ok, unlocked" signal from the front door control.... he's unaware that he's actually only opened the front door on the little dolls house you have in the attic with your micro-network of rating 3 locks and home appliances salvaged from junk yards. Which is monitored by a camera, attached to your real system, which sends the pre-alert signal to wolverine. They roll the response unit, and get to the house just as Pete reaches the front door and finds it still locked. "BLAM BLAM BLAM! Stop!" One dead Pete, house still secure.

If you don't have stuff that everyone else has, it makes you stand out from the crowd. If you are the only house on your street that doesn't have wifi nodes visible, it makes people wonder why, and what's going on. And they either investigate themselves, or sell the info to a bunch of aspiring runners saying "there be fat loot inside, yaaar!".

Task #2
Spray the inner sides of the external walls with a plastic layer, from floor to ceiling. Build a thin wall of light structural material around the inner side of every external wall of your house, from floor to ceiling, and ensure that it is sealed. If the house is big enough, build it like a bathtub, so it encompases the floor too. You loose a chunk of internal volume, but if it's a nice enough area, that shouldn't be too tough. Each room is now 4" smaller on any external side, and the floor is a higher than normal - with a void all the way around. Fill the void with water. Install a water sensor, just below the top of the wall.
Any nasty interloper tries to drill in through a wall, they first of all set of the sensor and alert the security company, and secondly have to deal with high pressure water shooting out of the hole they made. For shits and giggles, mix the dye they use when transporting cash in security vans with the water, to leave your attacker stained a bright colour and easier to track (or add tagants to the liquid for a more subtle approach).

Both of those I think would fit your criteria of being both subtle and legal, and easy to do to the inside of the house without betraying anything outside.

This one has real possibilities, as you have a point - the one house on the block without apparent wireless access to all the stuff inside? A bit suspicious. So, give them something they'd expect to find. And if they actually take the bait...well, hopefully it keeps them busy long enough for the wolvies to show up and give them a case of lead poisoning. Though I'm not sure I'd need an actual "doll house" of the real house. I could just mount all the Rating 3 door controls and household appliances (or the ripped-out wireless access components for those at least) to a piece of plywood in the attic and label them "Front Door," "Back Door," "Microwave Oven," "Coffee Maker," etc.



Ok, I have to give you A+ marks for creativity here, but this seems a bit more effort than even I'd like to put into security.


EDIT:

I've updated the first post and implemented this idea. Thanks much!

Have a look here.

My first reaction was to point out that this is hilariously overcomplicated when simple metal foil attached to something measuring impedance would do -- not to mention the weight of the water pushing against the walls. But then I remembered FAB, a "water wall" would make a great astral barrier if filled with that.

In fact, I can imagine something like that being available off the shelf: All you'd need is a kind of sandwich panel with hollow space inside for the water/FAB solution and connectors along the edge to let it circulate. And if you limit the water layer to a centimeter instead of four inches, a 1x1 meter panel would be 10 kilos of water, that's less than ceramic tiles. I think I'll use that idea

Wards explicitly cannot be layered or nested. See Street Magic, p. 124.


Your GM would have to be either incredibly generous, or completely ignorant of SR magic to allow either of these. I've never seen any hint that magic can interact with radio signals; and wards implicitly only react to astral forms, which drones don't have. There's also the fact that you can't have nested wards.

Not so fast. Wards are walls, not solid "boxes." See here:

SR4 Street Magic, "Wards", p. 123
"Wards (see p. 194, SR4A) are the astral equivalent of the oldest form of security: the wall."

As for nesting them, see here:

SR4 Street Magic, "Wards are Exclusive", p. 124
"Wards cannot be layered or overlap in the same area of astral space. Magicians seeking redundant astral security measures will often put a series of wards in place, much like a gauntlet an intruder would have to pass through, but they cannot place multiple wards on the same space in an effort to make intrusion exponentially more difficult. Attempting to place a new ward where it would intersect with another ward results in the new ward simply failing." [emphasized words mine]

My wards, as explicitly stated, do not touch or intersect, therefore they are not occupying the same area of astral space. They're arranged "Russian Doll" style. There's the outermost one, than a smaller one a bit further inside, and then another smaller one still further inside. Exactly as the rules state, it's "a gauntlet an intruder would have to pass through" but their boundaries don't intersect each other.



[shrugs] Then I'll make them custom spells that do those things that are secured by Quickening. Same end results, different means.

As for magic interacting with EM signals, see the Interference spell (SR4 Street Magic, p. 173) and Pulse (SR4 Street Magic, p. 174). Looks like magic interacts with radio signals just fine.

Thank you for proving my point.


The outermost ward includes the space warded by the second and third. The middle ward includes the space warded by the innermost. Your GM's mileage may vary, but I would never allow this arrangement.




Fair enough, but nested wards are still illegal.

That's only true if wards aren't walls, but are instead "filled-in/solid boxes/cubes" (I'm trying to think of the most appropriate term to describe this). But as long as wards are walls, my approach is completely valid.

Wards don't need to be volumetric in order to be exclusive. I have no idea how you're getting the idea that they do. The rules are explicit and unambiguous: "Wards cannot be layered or overlap in the same area of astral space. Magicians seeking redundant astral security measures will often put a series of wards in place, much like a gauntlet an intruder would have to pass through, but they cannot place multiple wards on the same space in an effort to make intrusion exponentially more diffcult. Attempting to place a new ward where it would intersect with another ward results in the new ward simply failing." You cannot place a ward around another ward, because that would result in layered wards, which cannot exist.

Look at this way - the rules are obviously there to stop "munchkiny" ward rating inflation. If, instead of 3x separate Rating 6 wards, I tried to claim that I had stacked all 3 directly on top of each other and thus any attacker had to beat a Force 18 ward to get through, yeah, that would be cheating. In my setup, if you can beat a Force 6 ward, you're getting in - but, you'll have to do it three separate times, which buys me some extra time at least.

If my interpretation of the rules wasn't correct, then the "series of wards, much like a gauntlet an intruder would have to pass through" scheme wouldn't be possible, but it is.

Imagine the following scenario. You want to ward a 100 meter cube. The first ward is a 100 meter cube. The second is 1 meter inside that one, forming a 98 meter cube. The third is one meter inside the second one, forming a 96 meter cube. None of those "hollow" cubes are touching each other. Someone trying to batter their way in from the outside has to break through three separate walls (which is what wards are) to get to the center.

False premise: you're assuming "series of wards" means what you want it to mean. You can ward an elevator shaft, and the hallway leading off of it, and a room off of the hallway, forcing an intruder to deal with three separate wards; but none of those wards can share volume or overlap in 3-dimensional space.

A completely useless warding scheme. Physical walls don't exist in astral space. Just fly around to the room you're trying to get into and ignore the elevator shaft and hallway. Well, ok, yes, the room is warded, but the other two wards are useless.

See also this entry:

SR4 Street Magic, "Metaplanar Shortcut", p. 94
"Spirits that find their physical or astral movement impeded by a dual-natured mana barrier may take a quick trip to the metaplanes and back again to the other side of the barrier. This “shortcut” may only be taken if the spirit’s conjurer is on the other side of the barrier (taking up one service) or if the spirit has been to the location on the other side before (a reason to never allow a spirit into your private sanctuary). Free spirits, who are not restricted to any conjurer’s presence, often use this shortcut for near-instantaneous worldwide travel." [emphasized words mine]

If wards were not walls, with "empty space" inside them, this little trick couldn't work.

It's a perfectly effective warding scheme; you might be able to bypass the elevator and hallway wards via astral projection, but what will you do once you get into the room? You can't pick up the thing you're being paid to steal, much less carry it back out with you.

As I noted before, wards do not need to be volumetric in order to be exclusive. You cannot have a ward that exists, even partially, inside another ward. A spirit's metaplanar shortcut does not in any way demonstrate that you can.







I don't understand why you're having difficulty with this.

At this point, I guess we just disagree. You have your interpretation of the rules, I have mine.

While I can see how one can read the sentence that way, such a restriction would simultaneously make warding way too annoying and be too easy to circumvent: It would make warding a terrible process because even the tiniest ward inside the warded volume would make the classic "box ward" fail, so security mages would just be trolled forever. And at the same time everybody who really wants to layer wards could still do it by assembling the "box" from six individual walls around an inner ward -- none of the individual wards encompass the volume occupied by the inner ward, therefore it would be 100% legal even under your interpretation.