If you want the Matrix to be more all-encompassing and TMs to have their own flavor, you should check out FrankTrollMan's Alternate Matrix Rules. In my limited time with them (as a player, not GM, mind you), Frank's Matrix rules appeared to do a pretty good job of doing what you just asked for, and the hissyfit people throw over brainhacking isn't much of an issue if your goal is to really drag people into the wireless world even if they're kicking and screaming the whole way. TMs by his rules are very dangerous because you for all intents and purposes can't really opt out of the Matrix yet they don't appear to be overpowered (so far) since they still require LOS and anyone at all can learn to provide their own signal defense (the counterspelling to brainhacking's powerbolt). Toss in the fact that they generally lack the Mage's ability to do things like using Improved Invisibility or Possession to get out of harm's way, and overall they seemed pretty well balanced, arguably much moreso than Mages, since they're easier to defend against and are pretty fragile even by SR4's deadly standards. They're basically mage analogs in every way, and his rules in general are actually very easy to learn. I'm currently not using them myself, but that's mostly because my players are quite happy with the current flavor of the SR4 matrix anyway.

Brol actually classified this better than I did:



Threading and Sprites are crazy powerful. The ability to double a program rating, albeit with a -2 to everything else is AWESOME. Sprites also do things that are completely impossible normally. This is not 100% bad. What IS bad about them is that they are completely like a mage. I know the developers did this to make it easier to remember (and it is), but by doing so they have completely created a dud.

TECHNOMANCERS ARE NOT MAGICIANS!

Technomancers are a bit special within the RAW matrix rules. Anyone can accomplish anything equates to being better does not accomplish more. But:

The really special thing is that you do not need a comlink. Only that everyone expects you to have a comlink. So you gain nothing from that advantage.

The stealthy little special is that a TM does not have a matrix ID. You leave a signature visible by other TMs, but TMs are not all over the place like SecMages.

I consider the RAW echoes to be a bit bland, but very effective. Unwired will hopefully bring some more flesh for TMs. If you want TMs to be common (I certainly don´t, not at all) you have to reduce the costs to those a mage faces. The intended balance between cheaper programs (hacker) and sprite services ™ was not achieved. I think the oversight was that mages get spirits that can do things their spells can´t. The TM gets sprites that mostly do what he could do himself.

The only reason why TM's arnt 'exactly' like a mage is the fact that they dont buy their CF's at Resonance and the funky way that the matrix works with Skill+Program/CF=DP. If you look at alot of the houserules that pop up for 'matrix fixes' you see Attribute+Skill=DP with Program/CF limiting hits... sounds alot like spells, huh? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

That's discounting the special powers that sprites have, like how Crack sprites can delay alarms for 3 Turns (9seconds) at just Rating 6. Other than the special powers, only the Data spite with it's instant linguasoft, and Machine sprite's autosofts are different than what a TM can do, though technically the TM could just thread those programs themselves if they want. Hell, it doesnt say that the TM cant just 'learn' those CFs.

This came up in last weeks game when I was inside a facility running cover for my team and the IC kept going nuts as it tried to trace my sprite (all it came up with was "autonomous code" and thought it was deaking with a baby AI

Also on the subject of Echos I started a thread about new echoes here:

Current echos = dull

The TM may thread or learn autosoft CFs. They are an available program, and therefore kosher. Unfortunately all autosofts reference pilot ratings and drones, not jumped-in riggers. Riggers are supposed to use their own skills. I.e. thats why they need dodge, as there is no vehicle-skill equivalent of an Athletics dodge IN THAT MODE (FAQ seems to stand for Fast-Answered-Questions most of the time, but I digress).

Cookie is nice, but ultimately a gimmick power. Diagnose is mostly a DP bonus on something the TM will have a working pool for (Electronics+Logic). Electron Storm is dominated by an Attack rating in the lower digits. Gremlins is also dominated by attack. Hash is good! Steganography is nice, even if not failsafe; a "guess the right node-strategy" is more effective IMO. Stability... to each his own. Supression is dominated by high Stealth, could have been useful if it supressed ALL alerts, not only those caused by the sprite. Watermark can be used.

Compare that with spirits: Samurai Replacements, Weather Control, Infiltration for everyone, Fear... the mage wins.

So, threading is da shitz and technos can run around with stealth charged to OVER 9000! Am I the only one thinking that the fading will toast, maim and burn the techno into a pile of goo? Physical drain is not fun. Or has that been errataed?

Threading is +2 for free, the sprite power of "support operation"(don´t know the english name) is "where it is at". Can be combined.

Question on TMs...

Couldn't they just hang out in an armored van / shelter and support their team? Basically, I am curious if their Matrix abilities let them "be there" via AR without being there. Sort of like a holographic pet. Seen, heard, can't be touched/felt (unless AR lets you do this).

I'm thinking in the same vein as how Mages can Astrally Project and then go Physical such that they can be seen & heard but are totally immaterial (and still unable to affect the Physical). If TMs can do this via the Matrix / AR, it would obviously be limited by anti-wireless measures much in the same way as certain areas of Astral Space are hazardous to Projecting Mages.

Yes, I'm quite aware that the goal is to get the hackers & TMs to go *with* the party but if they can ride along via AR, then they are still with the party and able to interact on some level but are limited in their real world actions unless they manage to get the Matrix connected devices to do something to help out.

If TMs can't do this, perhaps they should be able to in order to further differentiate them from Hackers?

As far as I've understood the matrix, anybody can do this without anything special on the commlink, or special skills. Its simply your team pulling up your persona on their image link. You could even be touched/felt, if you had the simsense added in, and the people had AR gloves or ability to feel simsenses. This is mostly how my TM rides along to meet Johnsons, hooked into someones cybereyes/ears, so I can see and hear what is going on, while at the same time I'm there if they need me. So far no johnson has pulled out a jammer, but my whole team has ECCM so hopefully I should still be able to reach them.

On runs, I've had to go with because there's usually some wireless hampering.

Everyone has pointed out lots of flaws but there are more benefits that haven't been covered. Other than threading and sprites

Technomancer Benefits

Low Detectability: A technomancer has very limited chance of being detected, 5 hits on assensing to locate this hidden weapon. The technomancer can "turn down" his signal to the point where locating it would require someone to be sticking a probe in him. At least this is how my group figures, Signal is the maximum range, but you can lower it to anywhere below that to the non-existant point. On-line systems don't even notice us as part of the server load.

Unlimited Complex Forms: Technomancers can have all their complex forms and threaded complex forms running at the same time, as well as up to Charisma + 1 sprites. Whereas a hacker can only have up to System programs running (and System x 2 subscribed), or all the ratings start to drop. (Please no hackastack or agent smith arguments, SR4 was not written with these in mind, and its more or less an exploitation of vague rules) I have GM'd for a standard hacker and at a Complex (or Simple?) Action to load each program its depressing to watch. Has to keep stealth, biofeedback, armor... Which leaves him 2 more programs to actually work with at a time. There is alot of program shuffling going on.

Oh, and another fun tactic if the team has a mage too: Resonance isn't afected by critter form...who's going to notice one more pidgeon?

As for the costs...yeah they're a bit high for my tastes. (Though you don't NEED to cap resonance at chargen, saving 5% of your build points right there.) If CFs were half as expensive they'd probably be ok (remember kids, there's a very limited number of CFs, not like the 1001 spells that exist, that you may actually HAVE to buy and learn one in the middle of a run.)

The Aug-introduced cyber that gives non-technos an extra pass in VR is unfortunate, it takes away their strongest echo.

The saddest part of the techno is that they're back to the "sit in the van and wait for the team" achetype...which SR4 specifically set out to get rid of. They don't have the points to buy up physical stats enough to risk getting shot at.

how about a rigger cocoon on a segway? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

*cough*

While that's more than sufficiently geeky...I'm probably going to suggest to the techno in my regular group to go with the improved cocoon in an Evo Orderly. (That way he still has arms to open doors, and legs to go up and down stairs, you see)

edit: the 20+ armor is probably what'll sell him (since he's running around with a body of 1 atm)

ah yes, forgot about that. still, isnt that what they have the team for (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

anyways, whenever a TM is presented in art, they have one or more drone floating nearby. while we all know art is unreliable in SR, i suspect this is a hint that for a TM the sprites are his main weapon, not his CF's.

a TM compiles some sprites in downtime, then puts them on hold until needed.

want to hack in? either call on the right sprite for the job, or whistle up a CF and have a sprite assist. either way one should get some interesting dice pools (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

hell, isnt the opening text of emergence about a kid with a "virtual friend" going around hacking stuff?

but i suspect some would argue that noone would put a wifi equiped vending machine out on the streets without ramming the firewall into insanity and stuffing it with black ice...

all in all, it seems that most people dislike the TMs for their mage like crunch, and indirectly by it leading to magic bleeding into the tech...

Werent these TM's normal people before they happened to become what they are? I know a sufficient number of us are very adept min-maxers (raises hand), and we can make a focused character that, with the correct team, can mop the floor with anybody.

I want TMs to not have to be min-maxed, or turned into pigeons to survive in the real world.

Those who have said that you have to take threading and sprites into account are right. We need to define exactly how much that is worth in BP. What weight that has relative to other "classes" in Shadowrun.

Also, I havent brought this up yet, but is Submersion also too expensive karma wise? While Mages have to split their karma between Sorcery and Conjuring groups to be effective, Technomancers have to spend karma on 3 groups (Electronics, Cracking, and Tasking), as well as CF's.

I also think it is fair to say that TM's dont get as much for it. Powerwise or any other way. I think it would be fair to make it cost 5karma + (3*Grade Desired)

Anyways, tell me what you think

As the technomancer in the game whipstitch is playing I'd add some further comment(s). Frank has brought technomancer-y pretty much in line with mages, and given them powers that hackers can never ever get and are quite awesome



Is a damn sweet ability, if completely unusable in the game I'm current in.

However, you're not particularly powerful, because while you can theoritically hack into peoples brains and them make the brains leak out of their ears counterspelling - the hacking edition - is pretty commonly available, and most characters have access to some of it, so typically you are attacking with two specalised dicepools vs 3 generalist ones and that is evenly matched.

The most important bit though is that infomational hacking really doesn't use any game time. Extracting data from a node you can see is like 1 dice roll. This is fantastic because it saves endless rolls by the hacker as he sneaks past the firewall, avoids the IC with stealth, browses for the data, decrypts it, defuses the databomb, then disconnects. That takes alot of game time to find out something that may not be particularly relevant (when was the last time this door was used), vs tossing down 1 dice roll in franks rules.

And while making technomancers much more playable is nice, making the entire matrix much more playable for everyone is fantastic, because it uses much less time, and it makes playing a hacker feel more like a hacker because you can hack into simple stuff very quickly without hogging to much screen time.

Highly recommended as it solves two problems with 1 stone.

As I said before, Technomancers are only about 5 years old in the Sixth World. They were completely normal people before then, they have not had the past 59 years to understand themselves. Treating them like mages is just weird. I get the feeling the Otaku would help them out since the Submersion and Echos are very similar. Also the Sprites are much like Daemons (if I remember correctly).

I certainly dont remember Otaku being like mages. Can a former Otaku help me out here? Now we have the option to play adult Otaku (finally!), and yet we are again railroaded by common sense to make them physically like Children (How else can you have a good Response/Signal/System/Firewall/Biofeedback Filter?). What flavor based rules in SR3 do you think would work well if ported to SR4?

just a side note, with the new PMVs in arsenal and the vehicle mod rules, you can bring along the technomancer and they will be able to take care of themselves. there are a few good options, and some fairly interesting possibilities to play with that should conveniently allow you to bring someone along physically without them needing to worry about their meatbod all the time.

What Im saying is.......... They shouldn't HAVE to worry, or rig themselves around. They should be able to WALK (as is our human right! dammit!). Its not that I expect them or the whole team to all go break into the Corp Building or wherever else the action is, Im just saying that shit happens and they should at least have the ability to deal with it, without having to resort to their TM ability. I can even build sufficiently min-maxed mages (can anyone say 14-15DP for Drain?), and they are still 100% fine in the meat. The is no reason aside from the rules currently governing how TM's interact with the matrix that TM's should be this gimped.

i wonder, can a machine sprite diagnose a smartgun?

One of the things that frustrated me about SR3 was that there was no reason for the decker to go along with the team on a run. And that is the great thing about SR4, since everything is wireless, then in my mind everything has a wireless signal. Now the Hacker can go along with the group and hack the doors and cameras when they get within signal range of whatever device is in the way.

So in keeping with the spirit of the TM as being someone with an almost mystical connection with machines I'm letting my TM basically extend the signal range of any device she is trying to hack whether the signal is turned down or even turned off, it is not off limits to her. The drawback to this ability is fading. Now during combat she actually comes into her own because she is able to assist the team by basically turning off any electronic or cybernetic devices their opponents may have.

This particular issue can be fixed in one go by disconnecting the persona ratings from the mental attributes. While you can build mages around Charisma, Logic or Intuition as a primary drain stat (and skimp a bit on willpower if ultimate power is not desired), TMs need all four attributes in the higher range, because mission-critical stats are tied to them. The fact that all TMs are semi-forced to be "conjurers" would still remain.

How would you suggest going about this disconnect, Ryu? I've got a TM in the my game and, so far, he's been pretty capable in and out of the matrix. His pistol wielding skills are certainly less than the others, and he's voluntarily sacrificed some Agility and Reaction to Armor Encumbrance, but he'd live through the basics of a fight if he has to. The player does tend to try and find a safe spot to bunker up. His eyes lit up when he saw the Steed in Arsenal, though....

IIRC, he's at about 60 karma, which about 20 unspent.