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Brol_The_Mighty
Alright, so here's the thing. I started a thread last week on how to build a TM, that helps against what I had thought the inherent weaknesses of the TM are. However, over the week there've been many responses, and most of them I understood, and some I did not. And it made me ponder, do I actually KNOW what the inherent weaknesses to the TM are, compared to cybered Hackers...and what're the best ways to overcome these. I'm looking for a Good Hacker, and a Fair, if not Good Rigger. I know, I know, a tall order. Here's the reasons I thought that TMs had problems.

Problems
No cyber advantage.
-The TM has no way of physically storing data that it hacks.

HUGE investment of Karma for skills, as well as Resonance rating.
-Whereas the Hacker uses nyuen for new programs, and abilities (like storage, additional DP's, and such) the TM has to use Karma.

No Matrix Condition.
-TM's use their Physical Condition, instead of Matrix. Thus the need for a higher body, for more boxes.

Reliant upon Sprites.
-The TM's greatest strength is in its Sprites. However, each time you compile, you have to resist Fading. That, and compiling a sprite takes a good amount of time.

Limited Dicepools.
- I don't know if I'm missing something, but I'm just having a hard time seeing how a TM can compete with a Hacker in dicepools for Matrix tasks.

Limited use "Meatside."
- With all the Karma costs associated with getting a TM up, its hard to allocate karma for skills and attributes needed for "meatside" operations.

Solutions

"Burning" a point of Resonance for Cyber/Bio.
-From a fluff perspective, i REALLY don't like this option, but it may be the only one. However, I'm not sure what's the best combo, choices. Best bang for the buck.

Overspecialization
-Definately a viable choice, but leaves you lacking on the meatside. That, and is still tricky to pull off. Unless I've missed something.

Threading
-Using threading with a complex form you already know, you can increase your CF's rating by the amount of hits you get.

Sprite Tasks.
-You can use a task, for the Sprite to assist, adding its rating in DP.

Re-registering Sprites.
-You can have (charisma) in registered sprites. And continually re-register them during downtime.

Houserule.
-Suggested at letting TM's buy CF's at resonance like Mages buy spells. Cost would be 5 Karma.

Storage Devices.
-A TM, or a sprite, can just wirelessly transfer the data to whatever storage device he'd like.


That's all I've got. If anyone has any other disadvantages that I missed, or Solutions, I'd LOVE to hear them. I'm fascinated by the TM, and am just trying to learn as much as I can about making mine a fluid, viable character.
raverbane
QUOTE (Brol_The_Mighty @ Feb 6 2008, 01:56 PM) *
Alright, so here's the thing. I started a thread last week on how to build a TM, that helps against what I had thought the inherent weaknesses of the TM are. However, over the week there've been many responses, and most of them I understood, and some I did not. And it made me ponder, do I actually KNOW what the inherent weaknesses to the TM are, compared to cybered Hackers...and what're the best ways to overcome these. I'm looking for a Good Hacker, and a Fair, if not Good Rigger. I know, I know, a tall order. Here's the reasons I thought that TMs had problems.

Problems
No cyber advantage.
-The TM has no way of physically storing data that it hacks.

HUGE investment of Karma for skills, as well as Resonance rating.
-Whereas the Hacker uses nyuen for new programs, and abilities (like storage, additional DP's, and such) the TM has to use Karma.


One thing we done to mitigate these two issues in our game is a house rule and an addition. We added an echo that is called "Storage" that allows a techno to have storage 'capacity'. Since Response is what a comlink uses as it's 'oomph' we basically say the more response a comlink has, the more storage. So, with the "Storage" echo, the resonance of the techno is used as a basic guideline for how much storage they have. Even though the can "store" data, they still can't "run" programs. They still can only "run" complex forms. But, they can manipulate they have stored using the appropriate complex forms.

A hacker, after the game starts, simply paying 6,000 cash for a level 6 hacking program. But, a techno has to pay a total of 22 Karma to get a learn a new complex form from scratch up to level 6. To make up for the inequities of of this we simple let a techno buy complex forms just like a mage buys spells. Complex forms always operate at a level equal to the resonance of the techno.
Whipstitch
N/M, I missed a rather crucial piece of information. I'm not exactly batting 1.000 today.
Mr. Unpronounceable
QUOTE (Brol_The_Mighty @ Feb 6 2008, 07:56 PM) *
Reliant upon Sprites.
-The TM's greatest strength is in its Sprites. However, each time you compile, you have to resist Fading. That, and compiling a sprite takes a good amount of time.

Limited Dicepools.
- I don't know if I'm missing something, but I'm just having a hard time seeing how a TM can compete with a Hacker in dicepools for Matrix tasks.


This is true for straight-out-of-chargen technomancers, but ones that have had a chance for downtime are completely different:

Yes, they're reliant on sprites - but you can have [charisma] sprites registered at any time. You don't have to compile them on the fly, keep a stockpile of them up-to-date with lots of re-registering done during downtime, so you won't run out of services. They're free to register, registration takes [rating] hours, and sprites don't get the "break free" test like spirits do, so you can do this over and over again during downtimes - you should never run out of services.

As for the dicepools, that's more-or-less true. Until you remember that the technomancer can increase his complex forms by threading, and then have a sprite sustain the thread for him...and have another assist. This is why hackers cap out at about 6 stealth, and technomancers start at around 9 - generally most breeze through systems like they're undefended, if they remembered to do their homework.
djinni
QUOTE (Brol_The_Mighty @ Feb 6 2008, 02:56 PM) *
Problems
No cyber advantage.
-The TM has no way of physically storing data that it hacks.

has nobody ever thought of photographic memory?
all he has to do is see the source code and he knows it. that's the same as downloading a file.
uploading it is just as simple as VR typing. input the sourcecode string and bammo, there ya go.
can't believe I'm the only one that figured that out as soon as I read "no storage" for technos
Mr. Unpronounceable
Thought of it, but as stated above, completely unneccessary - storage is cheap, unlimited, and ubiquitous. All the techno has to do is a copy/paste to some item in his possession.
Blade
The TM can store data quite easily. He just has to carry some kind of storage device, or to send data to a node somewhere in the world (or have a sprite do it if it's sensitive data).

A way to get more bangs for your bucks is to benefit from the high mental attributes you need for your persona by getting a lot of rating 1 or 2 active skill linked to those attributes.

But still, TM are far too expensive compared to hackers.

Brol_The_Mighty
Isn't there a downside to re-registering a sprite?

@Raverbane: If you let the TM always operate CF's at Resonance, and purchase CF's at resonance, how do you calculate the Karma cost?
raverbane
QUOTE (djinni @ Feb 6 2008, 03:37 PM) *
has nobody ever thought of photographic memory?
all he has to do is see the source code and he knows it. that's the same as downloading a file.
uploading it is just as simple as VR typing. input the sourcecode string and bammo, there ya go.
can't believe I'm the only one that figured that out as soon as I read "no storage" for technos


Someone has thought of it and decided (for the purposes of our game) that it doesn't work for programs.

Photographic Memory
Cost: 10 BP
A character with Photographic Memory rarely forgets anything
he has experienced. Th e character can instantly recall faces,
dates, numbers, or anything else he has seen or heard. When making
Memory Tests (see Attribute-Only Tests, p. 130), the character
gains a –1 threshold modifier to the test.

The player still has to make memory tests. It isn't total recall and it isn't instant Flash-style speed reading. The time it would take the player to read the source code, he would do nothing but sit and read all day.

I do understand that memory is exceedingly cheap. But, I when I think about technos I think of technomancers that have had enough training, ie submerged, just do it on MEAT ALONE. Without any trappings of traditional hackers
Dashifen
QUOTE (Brol_The_Mighty @ Feb 6 2008, 02:53 PM) *
Isn't there a downside to re-registering a sprite?


Fading. Other than that, nope.
raverbane
QUOTE (Brol_The_Mighty @ Feb 6 2008, 03:53 PM) *
Isn't there a downside to re-registering a sprite?

@Raverbane: If you let the TM always operate CF's at Resonance, and purchase CF's at resonance, how do you calculate the Karma cost?


Same cost as a mage pays to learn a new spell. 5 karma
Aaron
QUOTE (Brol_The_Mighty @ Feb 6 2008, 12:56 PM) *
No cyber advantage.
-The TM has no way of physically storing data that it hacks.

In a world where articles of clothing have embedded storage and wireless capability, I've never found this to be a concern.
nathanross
I guess nows as good a time as ever to try to fix TM's, and they DO need fixing.

PROBLEM 1 - STORAGE

I agree with most everyone else, this is not a problem. The fact that TM's do what they do means they have absolutely no issue mentally or otherwise with comprehending and editing data. If they couldn't do this then what are their abilities doing? I see it merely as cut and paste. Sure they don't have a built in commlink or anything, but they can easily have a wireless-enabled storage medium and access it and use it. Pretty plain and simple I think. Its not like hackers have to have photographic memory to remember paydata. spin.gif

PROBLEM 2 - KARMA WHORE

This is the problem... Plain and simple, really, all the other problems could be ignored if this were to be fixed. As it stands, at character creation, to create a technomancer that is equivalent to a commlink+hacker (not taking into account the power imbalance Sprites gives), you must spend the following

45BP Resonance Attribute 5
40BP Electronics Group
40BP Cracking Group
40BP Tasking Group
105BP All 21 complex forms at Rating 5
80BP All mental attributes to 5 from 3 (I think this is fair, assuming the Hacker will be build with at least 3 in mental Attributes)

TOTAL = 350BP

Of this, a hacker need only spend:

40BP Electronics Group
40BP Cracking Group

26BP All 22 Computer Programs at Rating 6
2BP Rating 5 Resp /5 Sig /6 Sys /6 Fire Commlink

TOTAL 108BP

A TM must spend 240BP more than a hacker to get EXACTLY the same hacking dicepools. I am not even going to mention Hacker Adepts. Frank already computed the karma imbalance between them and TM's and found that a TM would require 1000 karma just to have the same dice pool. Now I think TM's are an AWESOME concept, but SOMETHING HAS TO BE DONE!

I know the designers erred on the side of caution with TM's, but the fact that they are forced to specialize and even then just to match up to what a hacker can do. Sure threading is nice, but I think the first step should be to completely eliminate the need for Electronics or Cracking skill groups. I feel this could be done by pairing each CF with an attribute, if not also creating new complex forms to replace the mental attributes. It needs to be developed further, but as long as people are thinking about it, progress should be made.

PROBLEM 3 - SHARED MATRIX/PHYSICAL/STUN DAMAGE TRACK

I dont feel that this is so much a problem, as it would be a perfectly normal drawback IF technomancers where as powerful as they should be (see PROBLEM 2). Yes, they need a higher body, but that would not be an issue if you didnt have to spend all your BP pumping your Mental attributes.

PROBLEM 4 - SPRITE CRUTCH

Yes, as things currently are, Sprites have very little drawback. They dont cost any money, just healing time. They are a TMs greatest strength, but because they are so good, the wonderful people who developed the rules, thought that the only way to balance this amazing strength was by making everything else a TM does suck. If the karma cost is to be reduced and the other abilities of TM's are to improve, Sprites must gain some kind of limitation, or drawback. Right now they have none.

PROBLEM 5 - LIMITED DICEPOOLS

See PROBLEM 2

PROBLEM 6 - SQUISHY

This is another huge problem, that COULD be rationalized if TM's where just plain gods of the Matrix, but that becuase they are so lack luster in every other way, makes things worse.

Resonance is the lifeblood of a TM, it limits EVERYTHING that they do. It is their Response chip and SO much more. It is so hard to get a TM just to the point of being equivalent to the hacker, but hackers can take Wired Reflexes, Skillwires, Cybereyes and now with Augmentation out, they can buy a Simsense booster at Chargen that allows them the 4 Matrix IP's that before only TM's could have, and even they had to [Initiate] for it. Now that is just not fair. This cyber bias also begs the question, "Are Technomancer's magic?"

I say throw out the loss of resonance rule, Otaku didnt have it, why should TM's? Or does it pollute their body of something (spits in disgust)? Given everything else that limits a TM, why cant they get implants? I see a future of SR with Bioware and Nanoware, and maybe even some genetech focused towards TM's. Why FANPRO built a wall that would inhibit true creativity in such an area is beyond me. I loved what I read in Emergence, but why oh why don't the rules support that?

Anways, I hope I have presented the issues in a clear manner, and Im sorry that I could not present more solutions to the problems. I hope that DS can finally get closer to addressing and correcting the issue.
hobgoblin
nothing like "crap, that file is in my other jacket"...
Whipstitch
I think what TMs needed more than anything was a different role than Hackers, but that ship's pretty much already sailed.
hobgoblin
didnt someone make a post ones about the TM only needing to take the most heavily used CF's, and thread the rest as needed?
nathanross
That is true, there are a few that you can avoid, but that hardly helps a 250BP (not even karma) imbalance at startup.
Brol_The_Mighty
No idea
hobgoblin
so dont go that hard, call a sprite and thread it up from a nice low 3 or so wink.gif
Brol_The_Mighty
Wouldn't that just be admitting defeat, and keeping the TM the second-rate hacker that it is then? Instead of coming up with ideas, or even houserules to put it at least on par with the cyber hacker, where its supposed to be? Do we really have to wait the year for Unwired to come out?
hobgoblin
i dont see it admitting defeat, i see it as the TM using what tools he have available.

why should the TM just be a biological hacker?

the TM have some unique abilities, use them. dont try to turn the TM into just another hacker.

hell, thats like complaining that the mage has to pay expensive BP for what a sammie can do with a cheap cammo suit...
Brol_The_Mighty
All of the TM's "unique" abilities, are for hacking or rigging. In fact, I wouldn't even really call them unique (except Echoes) since even in the core book, for every CF, it references programs. And for sprites, it references Agents. Yes, some of the sprites are unique...but they're used for.....hacking and rigging.
nathanross
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Feb 6 2008, 06:59 PM) *
i dont see it admitting defeat, i see it as the TM using what tools he have available.

why should the TM just be a biological hacker?

the TM have some unique abilities, use them. dont try to turn the TM into just another hacker.

hell, thats like complaining that the mage has to pay expensive BP for what a sammie can do with a cheap cammo suit...


The Mage is NOT doing what what a Sammy can do, NO ONE can do what a mage does. The mage is the most all powerful "class" (if you will) in Shadowrun. The Mage has the control a TM should have in the matrix, but in the real world. Not to mention the fact that a mage can Astrally project (not as useful as Matrix projection is, mind you). Besides, even mages dont cost this much BP.

The problem is not with the concept of Technomancers, but with the fact that the developement team was lazy and compromised the TM concept for a homogeneous matrix. The way in which the TM interfaces and does things within the Matrix have no place in the current rules.

The Technomancer that Emergence presented was what I think the rules should reflect, but that is not currently the case.

This is also a problem with the developers concept of AR. AR is very boring right now, and this needs to be fixed. We are still fixed in this wired point of view about how electronics and networks interact. AR (at least in future term) HAS to be more than that. Right now its just at a smart phone level. It has barely advanced past email accessibility. SR4 should represent the day when all sense of reality and illusion is lost. This is the true strength of AR. We need hot and cold sim AR, where everything is fake and yet real at the exact same time. Where we can naturally touch and feel what isn't there.

This is a matrix for TMs, but this Matrix does not currently exist. What Im asking the DS community is, how can we make it?
Jaid
i will freely agree that the TM's echoes (except overclock) are rather lackluster. certainly they aren't nearly as cool as they should be, imo (i've considered whipping up some homebrew echoes, a few of which i have ideas for, but have never actually made any).

but the sprite abilities include some pretty danged amazing ones.

and it's silly to complain about the technomancer's abilities without sprites and threading. you may as well make the observation that the regular hacker sucks without a commlink and programs... sprites and threading is what the technomancer does. that's their area of specialty. of course they suck without it.
hobgoblin
thanks jaid, i was starting to wonder if i had missed the elephant in the room here...
Whipstitch
If you want the Matrix to be more all-encompassing and TMs to have their own flavor, you should check out FrankTrollMan's Alternate Matrix Rules. In my limited time with them (as a player, not GM, mind you), Frank's Matrix rules appeared to do a pretty good job of doing what you just asked for, and the hissyfit people throw over brainhacking isn't much of an issue if your goal is to really drag people into the wireless world even if they're kicking and screaming the whole way. TMs by his rules are very dangerous because you for all intents and purposes can't really opt out of the Matrix yet they don't appear to be overpowered (so far) since they still require LOS and anyone at all can learn to provide their own signal defense (the counterspelling to brainhacking's powerbolt). Toss in the fact that they generally lack the Mage's ability to do things like using Improved Invisibility or Possession to get out of harm's way, and overall they seemed pretty well balanced, arguably much moreso than Mages, since they're easier to defend against and are pretty fragile even by SR4's deadly standards. They're basically mage analogs in every way, and his rules in general are actually very easy to learn. I'm currently not using them myself, but that's mostly because my players are quite happy with the current flavor of the SR4 matrix anyway.
nathanross
Brol actually classified this better than I did:

QUOTE
All of the TM's "unique" abilities, are for hacking or rigging. In fact, I wouldn't even really call them unique (except Echoes) since even in the core book, for every CF, it references programs. And for sprites, it references Agents. Yes, some of the sprites are unique...but they're used for.....hacking and rigging.


Threading and Sprites are crazy powerful. The ability to double a program rating, albeit with a -2 to everything else is AWESOME. Sprites also do things that are completely impossible normally. This is not 100% bad. What IS bad about them is that they are completely like a mage. I know the developers did this to make it easier to remember (and it is), but by doing so they have completely created a dud.

TECHNOMANCERS ARE NOT MAGICIANS!
Ryu
Technomancers are a bit special within the RAW matrix rules. Anyone can accomplish anything equates to being better does not accomplish more. But:

The really special thing is that you do not need a comlink. Only that everyone expects you to have a comlink. So you gain nothing from that advantage.

The stealthy little special is that a TM does not have a matrix ID. You leave a signature visible by other TMs, but TMs are not all over the place like SecMages.

I consider the RAW echoes to be a bit bland, but very effective. Unwired will hopefully bring some more flesh for TMs. If you want TMs to be common (I certainly don´t, not at all) you have to reduce the costs to those a mage faces. The intended balance between cheaper programs (hacker) and sprite services ™ was not achieved. I think the oversight was that mages get spirits that can do things their spells can´t. The TM gets sprites that mostly do what he could do himself.
Konsaki
QUOTE (nathanross @ Feb 7 2008, 02:46 AM) *
Brol actually classified this better than I did:



Threading and Sprites are crazy powerful. The ability to double a program rating, albeit with a -2 to everything else is AWESOME. Sprites also do things that are completely impossible normally. This is not 100% bad. What IS bad about them is that they are completely like a mage. I know the developers did this to make it easier to remember (and it is), but by doing so they have completely created a dud.

TECHNOMANCERS ARE NOT MAGICIANS!

The only reason why TM's arnt 'exactly' like a mage is the fact that they dont buy their CF's at Resonance and the funky way that the matrix works with Skill+Program/CF=DP. If you look at alot of the houserules that pop up for 'matrix fixes' you see Attribute+Skill=DP with Program/CF limiting hits... sounds alot like spells, huh? wobble.gif
Konsaki
QUOTE (Ryu @ Feb 7 2008, 07:16 AM) *
I think the oversight was that mages get spirits that can do things their spells can´t. The TM gets sprites that mostly do what he could do himself.

That's discounting the special powers that sprites have, like how Crack sprites can delay alarms for 3 Turns (9seconds) at just Rating 6. Other than the special powers, only the Data spite with it's instant linguasoft, and Machine sprite's autosofts are different than what a TM can do, though technically the TM could just thread those programs themselves if they want. Hell, it doesnt say that the TM cant just 'learn' those CFs.
Ustio
QUOTE (Ryu @ Feb 7 2008, 08:16 AM) *
The stealthy little special is that a TM does not have a matrix ID. You leave a signature visible by other TMs, but TMs are not all over the place like SecMages.


This came up in last weeks game when I was inside a facility running cover for my team and the IC kept going nuts as it tried to trace my sprite (all it came up with was "autonomous code" and thought it was deaking with a baby AI

Also on the subject of Echos I started a thread about new echoes here:

Current echos = dull
Ryu
QUOTE (Konsaki @ Feb 7 2008, 01:30 PM) *
That's discounting the special powers that sprites have, like how Crack sprites can delay alarms for 3 Turns (9seconds) at just Rating 6. Other than the special powers, only the Data spite with it's instant linguasoft, and Machine sprite's autosofts are different than what a TM can do, though technically the TM could just thread those programs themselves if they want. Hell, it doesnt say that the TM cant just 'learn' those CFs.


The TM may thread or learn autosoft CFs. They are an available program, and therefore kosher. Unfortunately all autosofts reference pilot ratings and drones, not jumped-in riggers. Riggers are supposed to use their own skills. I.e. thats why they need dodge, as there is no vehicle-skill equivalent of an Athletics dodge IN THAT MODE (FAQ seems to stand for Fast-Answered-Questions most of the time, but I digress).

Cookie is nice, but ultimately a gimmick power. Diagnose is mostly a DP bonus on something the TM will have a working pool for (Electronics+Logic). Electron Storm is dominated by an Attack rating in the lower digits. Gremlins is also dominated by attack. Hash is good! Steganography is nice, even if not failsafe; a "guess the right node-strategy" is more effective IMO. Stability... to each his own. Supression is dominated by high Stealth, could have been useful if it supressed ALL alerts, not only those caused by the sprite. Watermark can be used.

Compare that with spirits: Samurai Replacements, Weather Control, Infiltration for everyone, Fear... the mage wins.
Malicant
So, threading is da shitz and technos can run around with stealth charged to OVER 9000! Am I the only one thinking that the fading will toast, maim and burn the techno into a pile of goo? Physical drain is not fun. Or has that been errataed?
Ryu
Threading is +2 for free, the sprite power of "support operation"(don´t know the english name) is "where it is at". Can be combined.
darthmord
Question on TMs...

Couldn't they just hang out in an armored van / shelter and support their team? Basically, I am curious if their Matrix abilities let them "be there" via AR without being there. Sort of like a holographic pet. Seen, heard, can't be touched/felt (unless AR lets you do this).

I'm thinking in the same vein as how Mages can Astrally Project and then go Physical such that they can be seen & heard but are totally immaterial (and still unable to affect the Physical). If TMs can do this via the Matrix / AR, it would obviously be limited by anti-wireless measures much in the same way as certain areas of Astral Space are hazardous to Projecting Mages.

Yes, I'm quite aware that the goal is to get the hackers & TMs to go *with* the party but if they can ride along via AR, then they are still with the party and able to interact on some level but are limited in their real world actions unless they manage to get the Matrix connected devices to do something to help out.

If TMs can't do this, perhaps they should be able to in order to further differentiate them from Hackers?
Nightwalker450
As far as I've understood the matrix, anybody can do this without anything special on the commlink, or special skills. Its simply your team pulling up your persona on their image link. You could even be touched/felt, if you had the simsense added in, and the people had AR gloves or ability to feel simsenses. This is mostly how my TM rides along to meet Johnsons, hooked into someones cybereyes/ears, so I can see and hear what is going on, while at the same time I'm there if they need me. So far no johnson has pulled out a jammer, but my whole team has ECCM so hopefully I should still be able to reach them.

On runs, I've had to go with because there's usually some wireless hampering.
Nightwalker450
Everyone has pointed out lots of flaws but there are more benefits that haven't been covered. Other than threading and sprites

Technomancer Benefits

Low Detectability: A technomancer has very limited chance of being detected, 5 hits on assensing to locate this hidden weapon. The technomancer can "turn down" his signal to the point where locating it would require someone to be sticking a probe in him. At least this is how my group figures, Signal is the maximum range, but you can lower it to anywhere below that to the non-existant point. On-line systems don't even notice us as part of the server load.

Unlimited Complex Forms: Technomancers can have all their complex forms and threaded complex forms running at the same time, as well as up to Charisma + 1 sprites. Whereas a hacker can only have up to System programs running (and System x 2 subscribed), or all the ratings start to drop. (Please no hackastack or agent smith arguments, SR4 was not written with these in mind, and its more or less an exploitation of vague rules) I have GM'd for a standard hacker and at a Complex (or Simple?) Action to load each program its depressing to watch. Has to keep stealth, biofeedback, armor... Which leaves him 2 more programs to actually work with at a time. There is alot of program shuffling going on.
Mr. Unpronounceable
Oh, and another fun tactic if the team has a mage too: Resonance isn't afected by critter form...who's going to notice one more pidgeon?

As for the costs...yeah they're a bit high for my tastes. (Though you don't NEED to cap resonance at chargen, saving 5% of your build points right there.) If CFs were half as expensive they'd probably be ok (remember kids, there's a very limited number of CFs, not like the 1001 spells that exist, that you may actually HAVE to buy and learn one in the middle of a run.)

The Aug-introduced cyber that gives non-technos an extra pass in VR is unfortunate, it takes away their strongest echo.

The saddest part of the techno is that they're back to the "sit in the van and wait for the team" achetype...which SR4 specifically set out to get rid of. They don't have the points to buy up physical stats enough to risk getting shot at.
hobgoblin
how about a rigger cocoon on a segway? wink.gif
Mr. Unpronounceable
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Feb 7 2008, 09:58 PM) *
how about a rigger cocoon on a segway? wink.gif


*cough*

While that's more than sufficiently geeky...I'm probably going to suggest to the techno in my regular group to go with the improved cocoon in an Evo Orderly. (That way he still has arms to open doors, and legs to go up and down stairs, you see)

edit: the 20+ armor is probably what'll sell him (since he's running around with a body of 1 atm)
hobgoblin
ah yes, forgot about that. still, isnt that what they have the team for wink.gif

anyways, whenever a TM is presented in art, they have one or more drone floating nearby. while we all know art is unreliable in SR, i suspect this is a hint that for a TM the sprites are his main weapon, not his CF's.

a TM compiles some sprites in downtime, then puts them on hold until needed.

want to hack in? either call on the right sprite for the job, or whistle up a CF and have a sprite assist. either way one should get some interesting dice pools wink.gif

hell, isnt the opening text of emergence about a kid with a "virtual friend" going around hacking stuff?

but i suspect some would argue that noone would put a wifi equiped vending machine out on the streets without ramming the firewall into insanity and stuffing it with black ice...

all in all, it seems that most people dislike the TMs for their mage like crunch, and indirectly by it leading to magic bleeding into the tech...
nathanross
Werent these TM's normal people before they happened to become what they are? I know a sufficient number of us are very adept min-maxers (raises hand), and we can make a focused character that, with the correct team, can mop the floor with anybody.

I want TMs to not have to be min-maxed, or turned into pigeons to survive in the real world.

Those who have said that you have to take threading and sprites into account are right. We need to define exactly how much that is worth in BP. What weight that has relative to other "classes" in Shadowrun.

Also, I havent brought this up yet, but is Submersion also too expensive karma wise? While Mages have to split their karma between Sorcery and Conjuring groups to be effective, Technomancers have to spend karma on 3 groups (Electronics, Cracking, and Tasking), as well as CF's.

I also think it is fair to say that TM's dont get as much for it. Powerwise or any other way. I think it would be fair to make it cost 5karma + (3*Grade Desired)

Anyways, tell me what you think
Cthulhudreams
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Feb 6 2008, 08:59 PM) *
If you want the Matrix to be more all-encompassing and TMs to have their own flavor, you should check out FrankTrollMan's Alternate Matrix Rules. In my limited time with them (as a player, not GM, mind you), Frank's Matrix rules appeared to do a pretty good job of doing what you just asked for, and the hissyfit people throw over brainhacking isn't much of an issue if your goal is to really drag people into the wireless world even if they're kicking and screaming the whole way. TMs by his rules are very dangerous because you for all intents and purposes can't really opt out of the Matrix yet they don't appear to be overpowered (so far) since they still require LOS and anyone at all can learn to provide their own signal defense (the counterspelling to brainhacking's powerbolt). Toss in the fact that they generally lack the Mage's ability to do things like using Improved Invisibility or Possession to get out of harm's way, and overall they seemed pretty well balanced, arguably much moreso than Mages, since they're easier to defend against and are pretty fragile even by SR4's deadly standards. They're basically mage analogs in every way, and his rules in general are actually very easy to learn. I'm currently not using them myself, but that's mostly because my players are quite happy with the current flavor of the SR4 matrix anyway.


As the technomancer in the game whipstitch is playing I'd add some further comment(s). Frank has brought technomancer-y pretty much in line with mages, and given them powers that hackers can never ever get and are quite awesome

QUOTE
Can of Worms
Type: D Range: S (LOS) Time: CA Fading: ½R+2
This dread technique simultaneously assaults all networks in range except the technomancer herself. She makes a Resonance + Decompiling check resisted by each network's Firewall + Signal Defense. Those which are affected must soak Icon Damage equal to Rating + net hits.


Is a damn sweet ability, if completely unusable in the game I'm current in.

However, you're not particularly powerful, because while you can theoritically hack into peoples brains and them make the brains leak out of their ears counterspelling - the hacking edition - is pretty commonly available, and most characters have access to some of it, so typically you are attacking with two specalised dicepools vs 3 generalist ones and that is evenly matched.

The most important bit though is that infomational hacking really doesn't use any game time. Extracting data from a node you can see is like 1 dice roll. This is fantastic because it saves endless rolls by the hacker as he sneaks past the firewall, avoids the IC with stealth, browses for the data, decrypts it, defuses the databomb, then disconnects. That takes alot of game time to find out something that may not be particularly relevant (when was the last time this door was used), vs tossing down 1 dice roll in franks rules.

And while making technomancers much more playable is nice, making the entire matrix much more playable for everyone is fantastic, because it uses much less time, and it makes playing a hacker feel more like a hacker because you can hack into simple stuff very quickly without hogging to much screen time.

Highly recommended as it solves two problems with 1 stone.
nathanross
As I said before, Technomancers are only about 5 years old in the Sixth World. They were completely normal people before then, they have not had the past 59 years to understand themselves. Treating them like mages is just weird. I get the feeling the Otaku would help them out since the Submersion and Echos are very similar. Also the Sprites are much like Daemons (if I remember correctly).

I certainly dont remember Otaku being like mages. Can a former Otaku help me out here? Now we have the option to play adult Otaku (finally!), and yet we are again railroaded by common sense to make them physically like Children (How else can you have a good Response/Signal/System/Firewall/Biofeedback Filter?). What flavor based rules in SR3 do you think would work well if ported to SR4?
Jaid
just a side note, with the new PMVs in arsenal and the vehicle mod rules, you can bring along the technomancer and they will be able to take care of themselves. there are a few good options, and some fairly interesting possibilities to play with that should conveniently allow you to bring someone along physically without them needing to worry about their meatbod all the time.
nathanross
What Im saying is.......... They shouldn't HAVE to worry, or rig themselves around. They should be able to WALK (as is our human right! dammit!). Its not that I expect them or the whole team to all go break into the Corp Building or wherever else the action is, Im just saying that shit happens and they should at least have the ability to deal with it, without having to resort to their TM ability. I can even build sufficiently min-maxed mages (can anyone say 14-15DP for Drain?), and they are still 100% fine in the meat. The is no reason aside from the rules currently governing how TM's interact with the matrix that TM's should be this gimped.
hobgoblin
i wonder, can a machine sprite diagnose a smartgun?
The Monk
One of the things that frustrated me about SR3 was that there was no reason for the decker to go along with the team on a run. And that is the great thing about SR4, since everything is wireless, then in my mind everything has a wireless signal. Now the Hacker can go along with the group and hack the doors and cameras when they get within signal range of whatever device is in the way.

So in keeping with the spirit of the TM as being someone with an almost mystical connection with machines I'm letting my TM basically extend the signal range of any device she is trying to hack whether the signal is turned down or even turned off, it is not off limits to her. The drawback to this ability is fading. Now during combat she actually comes into her own because she is able to assist the team by basically turning off any electronic or cybernetic devices their opponents may have.
Ryu
QUOTE (nathanross @ Feb 8 2008, 05:32 AM) *
What Im saying is.......... They shouldn't HAVE to worry, or rig themselves around. They should be able to WALK (as is our human right! dammit!). Its not that I expect them or the whole team to all go break into the Corp Building or wherever else the action is, Im just saying that shit happens and they should at least have the ability to deal with it, without having to resort to their TM ability. I can even build sufficiently min-maxed mages (can anyone say 14-15DP for Drain?), and they are still 100% fine in the meat. The is no reason aside from the rules currently governing how TM's interact with the matrix that TM's should be this gimped.


This particular issue can be fixed in one go by disconnecting the persona ratings from the mental attributes. While you can build mages around Charisma, Logic or Intuition as a primary drain stat (and skimp a bit on willpower if ultimate power is not desired), TMs need all four attributes in the higher range, because mission-critical stats are tied to them. The fact that all TMs are semi-forced to be "conjurers" would still remain.
Dashifen
How would you suggest going about this disconnect, Ryu? I've got a TM in the my game and, so far, he's been pretty capable in and out of the matrix. His pistol wielding skills are certainly less than the others, and he's voluntarily sacrificed some Agility and Reaction to Armor Encumbrance, but he'd live through the basics of a fight if he has to. The player does tend to try and find a safe spot to bunker up. His eyes lit up when he saw the Steed in Arsenal, though....

IIRC, he's at about 60 karma, which about 20 unspent.
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