You can base all matrix attributes on Resonance. Signal at 1/2, all others at full rating. Or you can give out a pool of Resonance*3 for the non-signal ratings, to be distributed as the player wishes (max = Resonance+2). The mental attributes are still all worthwhile for a TM (Cha for sprites, Int is for everyone, Log for technical skills, Wil for fading), few points will shift away from the mental attributes. But a bit more flexibility helps much if you can´t cheaply augment your attributes. The main effect is that the TM does not have to increase his mental attributes after an increase in Response (Note that the balance of this houserule depends much on anything you do with CF costs).

I'd allow it for use of the armorer skill, but I'm on the fence about the firearms skill...fortunately, it hasn't come up in any games I've run.

A potential +16 is just too cheesy. OTOH, on average that's only a +5 for a max force sprite compared to the SLs +2. I definitely wouldn't let the two things stack.

since this is a TM thread its as good a place as any to ask. Related to my prior thread about commlinks. would TMs carrya commlink around with them for the "every day garbage" that John Q Wageslave uses them for? Like for ID, Banking, and that kinda stuff?

Mine does. It's a nice front.

Like the guy with type-O organs, being a technomancer isn't something you should advertise - you're worth too much as a test subject.

At least the Type-Owen will have a quick, painless death.

Assuming you can't replace a missing organ or muscle with a high-force heal spell, or maybe even another spell specifically for that purpose.

AFAIK, there's no regeneration spells in SR4. There's a drug with that effect, but if you've got any implants whatsoever, you really, really want to avoid it.

Heal spells are really (in effect) a super high speed regeneration spell. They restore you back to what you were prior to the damage. Get a leg blown apart and are still alive? Perhaps just a single box of overflow remains unfilled; that whole hanging onto life by a mere thread?

Slap a high powered Heal spell and voila! Youse be healed and put back to normal. Blown away / kibbles & bits muscle are miraculously regrown / repaired back to how you were before the injury.

Hmmm, with a high-power heal backing you up, I wonder how many times you could have your type-O kidneys removed in a week.

I'm pretty sure Heal is intended to close wounds, not to grow back stuff that is missing. Mages wouldn't need replacement organs if the opposite were the case. So if you get your arm blow off Heal will close the wound, but the arm would be still missing.

A type-Owen Vampire might be fun

in our old SR1 campaign the gm had a spell an enemy used on our mage called "heartmelt". The mage had to get a vatgrown heart transplant to recover. Magic can only heal so much from what Ive seen.

I'll add this realization of another Bonus here as well.

Fading Resistance grows at the same rate as your ability to Thread/Register larger things.
Mages are pretty stuck to resist their drain, but Technomancers use Resonance to "cast" as well as to resist fading.
(I still wish there were some qualities we could use to help at the start to resist these...)

We had a tiger-shapeshifter in our group under SR3. He wasn´t willing to "take a few for the team" when the group needed money and wanted his pelt.

Pesky egocentric shapeshifters. As if they needed that pelt. Pft

Also, mages are not stuck with drain. They have centering which is way cheaper.

They can have Centering. It still takes up a Metamagic slot in order to gain something that Technomancers effectively get for free with Submersion.

One metamagic is cheapter than Submersion+Resonance increase. Especially, when you allow players to buy Metamagic for 15 karma (or something).
This is going off topic, isn't it? Mages kick ass.

While going off topic, the fact that we are discussing how far the limit of a mage's immortality goes clearly shows how weak TM's are in comparison. They have been stuck with almost all of the mage's limits (essence affecting resonance, karma cost to initiate, etc) but their abilities PALE in comparison to what a mage can do.

And so far the only way I have found for a mage to regenerate is to make a new tradition with Possession Plant spirits. Once you learn invoking (and channeling is always nice), boom, Regeneration. And you didnt even need to become a Vampire.

I even think the TM is more karma draining, since he needs more skills, attributes and the way CFs are handled. They don't suck per se, but are way to expensive.

Amen, Brother! That is truly the issue! Not only does an entire extra skill group need to be purchased (compared to Mages or Hackers), but They need upwards of 20 Complex Forms to be complete, while Mages only are ALLOWED 12 spells maximum. Aside from which, those CF's usually cost more than spells (5BP for Rating 5 CF to 3BP flat spell cost). Mages are already the worst Karma whores I ever want to see in this game, why are TM's so much more so?

EDIT: I also completely forgot to mention that Mages also only have TWO absolutely crucial mental Attributes that they must pump, TM's have FOUR! Thats just absurd, given that Submersion and the Echos to improve said Ratings without increasing the Attribute are also absurdly expensive.

Actually for 10 build points you can take that up to 14.

so i guess one could summarize that anyone picking a TM over a hacker is playing style rather then substance?

but then, how different is that from say picking up a lightly armored suit and a light pistol rather then FFBA, lined coat and a heavy pistol, smg or shotgun?

the TM is not a munchkin/minmaxers toy...

Not in my opinion. TMs can be build to be better than a starting hacker, they just tend to be one-trick-ponies. A mage can affect the real world with his powers, so an increase in magic power also affects his options in the real world. A TM increases his power over the matrix, but the power of the matrix over the real world is constant. And a well-build TM really has no need to improve his matrix skills, ever. Their semi-aware programs (read sprites) do the trick from the get-go.

That is my real issue: The whole TM must be geared towards the matrix from the get-go. I´ve had much fun with a magic 3 spellcaster, but resonance 3 kills the living persona of a TM, and his fading resistance, too. From a min/maxing POV, thats a non-issue.

Personally, I don't think the problem lies with TM's being underpowered for the price so much as it does with Hackers being overpowered for the price. Unless I am missing something here, a Hacker doesn't even really need any of the mental attributes because he can simply buy programs and agents to do all the work for him. This suggests that all programs have an interface of "click here" and that's all that needs to be done. In other words, even the dumbest sprawl ganger can be just as effective at hacking as the genius hacker who has dedicated his entire life to hacking.

I really don't see this as being realistic (and yes I know we are talking about an obviously unrealistic setting here) when you look at the real world. Sure, I could buy the most powerful computer with all the latest programs, but if I don't know how to use the programs, then I'm stuck.

I think that programs and/or agents should in some way be limited by the Hacker's Logic or skill rating. Perhaps, the agent cannot be controlled by the more inept of hackers. Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but it just doesn't seem as though there is much need at all for a Hacker to invest very many BPs/Karma into the core hacking skills/attributes. This is of course what also lets them be good in the meat. Perhaps if Hackers were a little more limited then the limitations of the TM's wouldn't be so bad when coupled with the power potential that a TM can get to.

Unfortunately, I think it is ONLY a min-maxer's toy (I wouldnt say a munchkin's because it is not the easiest way to get powerful). Like Ryu noted, the only way to make a TM effective compared to a Hacker is by playing up only one aspect of what he can do (like threading Stealth 10 and exploiting like no tomorrow). Also, unlike in SR3 where a decker was limited to the matrix because the deck cost so god damn much, in SR4, not only is the hardware cheap, but the programs only set him back a bit. He still has plenty of money for Wired Reflexes and other Sammy gear to make him effective in combat as well.

TM's are stuck in the middle of shit.


You could be right that hackers are far too cheap. Afterall, hitting the soft cap on everything is just a matter of course. I usually just get rating 6 programs at startup just so that when I upgrade response after 1-2 runs (if not just building a chip myself), I dont have to rebuy all my programs.

Even with this huge allotment of money, I still have plenty to make me even more badass. I am thinking that a huge rate hike on Commlinks would be most effective to limit Hacker power. What do you think? Or should Response 4 be the cap at Chargen? Afterall, 4 is the new 6.

Oh and about the Attribute + Skill -vs- Skill + Program: I think that both should be useable, but hits being limited by the unused rating. So in other words,

Attribute + Skill (Hits limited by Program rating)
Skill + Program (Hits limited by logic rating)

Does this work? My group has been using the Logic + Skill for a while now and everything seems to be fine (of course, with all the Logic boosting Cyber, I cant say our hacker is ever lacking dice in any way )

Hackers are not to cheap, everyone should dabble in matrix stuff a bit. A wireless world. REAL hacker stuff should be more expensive than JoeAverage stuff. I like Moon-Hawks rules, were RAW hardware costs are multiplied by the hardware rating. Gives lower ratings a place in the world. At the same time it does away with software costs. The groups hacker was always supposed to give copies of his programs out, not fair.

TMs are too expensive. I´d say one could do away with CFs. Say:

Every CF is automatically at (Response) rating. There is no "support operation" service. Living persona ratings are the average of attribute and response, no longer limited by response.


Combined effect: Hackers pay around 30k for their comlink, but don´t need software. 80 BP in two groups, so 86 BP. Technomancers 5 buy Resonance 5 /40BP, 120 BP in two groups and two skill ratings 5 (compile, register), 165 BP. Roughly the double, but access to sprites and all programs running at once.

Seems balanced to me.

I just noticed that Sprites in general can't affect sensor. So Target (Autosoft) + Sensor, compiling a machine sprite to scout, or to targeting, will only replace the autosoft, you'll have to upgrade the sensor (software). I'd always thought they would have effectively 2 x Rating for these... Disappointing

Ever noticed fault sprites are effectivly blind?

Does that make the average bartender, mechanic, corporate manager, hate group member, ID manufacturer, pirate, slum lord, snitch, stripper and Vory Shestiorka all effectively blind as well?

Yes.

Actually, no. They can default on INT. What can a fault sprite default on? How do you default in the Matrix?

He sure as hell can see anything without a stealth program, but what without said program is worth attacking? Joe Average?

I was hoping it would be understood that I was being sarcastic. I guess its harder to pull off with just text.

Yeah it is. I should know.

More smileys help, sometimes. Unfortunatly I'm lazy. So I appear like a jerk. Which is not wrong, but not always intended

Btw, my previous post was directed at Fortune, so, once again, me lazy, not quoting or specifing = confusion. BAM!

IC, normal users (in unusual circumstances,) and riggers who forget that there isn't a difference between hacking & rigging.

Riggers especially seem to forget they're vulnerable to matrix attack even while jumped in, and jumped-in piloting & gunnery are matrix actions.

I am of the opinion that stealth disguises you as something else, but does not make you invisible. So it would be possible to give attack orders to a sprite once one has detected a target. You can´t hide your whole existance from a node without spoofing each and every signal - a legitimate and in my experience underused alternative to establishing user accounts for one-shot device access.

im guessing people are referring to matrix perception? given that a agent or sprite would replace computer with pilot. beyond that...

also, i recall a similar conversation when SR4 was new about your default human being unable to spot his own hands (3 in the stat, no perception skill or something like that).

How often do you perceive your hands? Sure you know they are there, but that doesn't mean you perceive them. Just thinking about it, I hardly ever perceive my hands. When I am cutting my nails or feel some pain originating from the area, I might look over them in detail (+3 DP if I remember correctly). Even if I have no perception skill, I am still able to look at things that are necessary when I have to.

Sure, I probably wont notice a sniper about to take a shot at me by seeing his reflection in a window (or something), but I can do all the normal everyday things I have to do without thinking at all. That is one of the great things about being an adult.

Okay, so now, Unwired is FINALLY out. What's changed for the Techno? I honestly don't have it yet....I'd lost my SR group when I moved to Japan, and am just now finding a new one....and they're wanting a TM in the group...and I'm still fascinated. SO, have any of the problems been addressed? Are there NEW problems? New solutions? Hit me with the best Lets nip this in the bud.

there goes the neighborhood...

Lol....and that means?

the opinions on TM's, as just about any other topic here on dumpshock, is divided, and seriously vocal...

Gotcha, and I completely agree. I was just hoping that Unwired had come out with some solutions to the whole problem of TM's being Karma whores, and all that. Basically addressing the problems that were brought forth in this thread.

if anything, TM's are even more karma hungry. but being the wizards of the matrix, it would really have surprised me if that had changed.

I'm sort of tempted, reading about this, to try to build a fully viable Combat Technomancer instead of a Combat Hacker(the latter is extremely easy to do.) I'd be using the 750 Karma method from RC for this no doubt, but the Karmagen I found helps Technomancers a LOT. I wonder if it's possible.

i suspect he would be sprite focused rather then software focused.

Probably. I'm just starting to learn the ropes more of the Technomancer bit; he'll have CFs for sure, but I'm definitely leaning more to Sprites for this, which means I might buy the skills there separate. Compiling/Registering at 5, Decompiling at 4(though I've heard the latter isn't the most important-i might have heard wrong, though.)

For race, I'm actually leaning toward Dwarf. They have the Willpower and Body boosts that are nice, since he needs Physical damage meter, and no mental caps otherwise. Reaction will be a little lower. I don't think I'm going to give him ware...I'd like to keep his Resonance at 6, but if it were a 5, I don't think he'd be completely crippled, since I am trying to build a hybrid Techno here.

I would be highly interested to see the results.

a submerged TM can gain some nice equivalents to common cyberware.

for example, biowire gives the equivalent of skillwire.

and from that one can gain acceleration, or the TM's answer to wired reflexes.

one can also emulate a smartlink (this one do not require submersion tho), gain skinlink (thats even more useful then normal, as the device used dont need to be skinlink equipped!), and fry the comlink of bothersome hackers using sparky.

One thing I'm debating is an extra meat-pass. I'm trying to think of both sides of him. His Technomancer side isn't too hard; but trying to get some other skills around is the more challenging part.

On one hand, it would be useful. On the other hand, I could use the nuyen from Synaptic Boosters for Karma to pump Edge to buy extra passes if needed. I wouldn't get more than one level, but he'd be looking at Resonance 5 out of the gate. Well, much like the cybered adept, he can submerge and buy this back, at least. I'm leaning more toward actually getting the second pass.

A combat techno becomes very possible with several of the Unwired echos. Accelerationx3 is very fun. Esensing is very handy (too much so, our group has gotten overly dependent on it and last session got screwed by a spirit that didn't show up on esensing-- "okay, no one there, let's go in" -- "aaaah! Where'd that come from!!! I thought you said no one was th-- *snore*") Register a few high level machine sprites, put them in your teammate's smartguns (yes, there is a debate, basically it's up to each GM on how to interpret that rule), and give them a nice dice pool bonus for their firearms. Same with the med-kit or vehicles. Biowires makes a great multi-skilled character. And Resonance Trodes make you a close-combat monster (or stealth assassin) - especially when your blackhammer CF becomes a rating 15 due to threading and sprite assistance.

Basically, you can create an almost-physical adept like technomancer with the right echos.