hmm, spirits do not have bio-electric fields?

and thats one nasty (if somewhat rules gray) use of those TM trodes

Not a gray rules thing at all. There's actually a test to pull someone's mind into VR (Int+Will vs. Res.+Will). The example given is even for blackhammering someone's undefended brain.

indeed, missed that. now thats intriguing

Things I have seen Technomancers do that Hackers cannot:

1) Hack data and send it to outside party members while captured, with com-link gone.

2) Use Sprites to mess with sec-team comms and such, while he is cracking the IC on the door lock or doing something to the elevator.

3) With 3 grades of Submersion, the undetectable "wired reflexes" type Echo, combined with the Smart Link Complex Form from Unwired=Resonance Samurai

These claims are substandard, return them to the manufacturer. They're still under warranty, right?

1. Technomancers are not undetectable; your GM is just incompetant. There's a little Program called Scan that should be on an Agent (or 5, teamwork tests are awesome) in every secured facility, just being run 24/7 for your spiders. It will take your Spider (or grunts, if you're really smart and let them do this) a few moments to notice that there's still a connection on that guy they captured, even after they removed the commlink.

Incomplete security knowledge on the part of your GM is not an argument in favour of Technos.

Edit: The assumption was that they would throw a headjammer onto the Techno if they detected them. That is why this argument negates your point. Blame my terrible tiredness for missing this out.

2. Cracked Agents, mofo. Do you use them?

3. Of course, everyone knows that hackers are really what we ought to compare this aspect too! Actually, hackers can get undetectable wired reflexes; it's called "Synaptic Booster". Smartlink CF is a plus I guess, but it's replicable using contacts.

4. Since it would inevitably turn up (it's Tiger Eyes' favourite); a Program at Rating X is just a Program at Rating X. There is no law saying that Programs have to be capped at Rating 6 (sure, you're only allowed to buy programs up to Rating 6), and with the various options in Unwired there's even less reason to act as if there was. The nice thing about a Hacker with Stealth 12 is that they're not sustaining and they have no time limits.

You can claim practicality; I will respond "Extended tests are uncapped by RAW and I have a maxed out Software DP". It's only a matter of time!


If I've offended you, I apologise in advance. I don't intend to claim that Technos are terrible, it's just that the reasons given are annoying me. Have you ever listened to a racist talk about how blacks are clearly inferior when you, yourself, realise that it's mostly inertia that's holding them back? You know how much you want to step in and lay down the truth because what they're saying is the result of their ignorance of some vital facts? That's how I feel every time Tiger Eyes opens her (I assume this, if I offend then I apologise) mouth about how her Techno threw down some ridiculous rating Program. It's not that I hate Techno lovers; I just wish you learnt enough to give better reasons for playing a Techno.

channeling slamm-o! are we?

I love parts of the Techno concept and there are some solid reasons to take them. The problem is that some people are touting benefits that they don't actually have over others. The fact that he explicitly stated that all his points were things that a hacker cannot do was what set me off, I guess. Especially the "Resonance Sam" thing, which is just ridiculous in the face of Bioware's almost total undetectability.

Are the characteristics associated with Tm good or bad things in and of themselves, or simply judgments being made by the person evaluating the technomancer archetype characteristics?

Why are they "problems"?

Its a problem when it takes much more in regards to BP's and then Karma for a TM to come close to standard of the other archetypes, on an even field. A hacker, comes out of the gate much more powerfully than a TM. Same for a rigger. It takes much more Karma for the TM to even catch up to that point. That's a problem in 1. Why take a TM rather than one of those two....and stating "for flavor" is a cop-out answer as well. 2. Because in any casual gaming group, where you're getting 4-7 Karma a session, and only meeting 1-2 times a MONTH, TM's advance at a crawl where the Sammies/Hackers/Rigger/Damn near everything else are gearing up and advancing due to the gradual increase in pay. Whereas a TM's rate of advance actually SLOWS as time goes, because of the mountain of Karma you have to start throwing around. I've never heard of a GM rewarding more Karma per session as a character advances, whereas its fairly standard for your group to earn more cash for a mission, the more missions you run. Yes, mages feel this crunch too, but not even CLOSE to the amount that TM's do. So maybe, MAYBE, instead of just asking "why are these problems?" come up with a solution. Maybe, just MAYBE, you're in the wrong thread, and should GTFO.

/rant over.

What exactly are the differences, in DP/stats, between optimised technos and hackers? At the start, and later on?

So, in a few thousand years, when the magic cycle tanks again and magicians and dragons and adepts etc. disappear, will there still be technomancers?

Peter

if the wireless matrix is not powered by magical handwavium, yes.

My direct experience is that TM are the most powerful Matrix centric character both out of the box and in long term campaign play. This is both with or without Unwired options.

There's a lot more to some archetypes then raw numbers of dice.

I really enjoy technos, that's probably obvious. That being said, I'd never play one if A) my current roleplaying group hadn't built our characters as a group effort, so the other three PCs make up for my TMs early weaknesses in combat and non-Matrix skills, and B) my GM hadn't established our current game as karma-heavy & nuyen-lite (ie, 2 - 4 karma per session, playing on average 4 times per month, with a 5 karma bonus for every in-game month our characters survive).

Every other game, I've played a hacker or technical adept. Frankly, the best starting character (in terms of dice pools rolled and non-matrix skills) I've ever played was a 4th edition technical adept. The main difference between that character and my current TM is that my TM can hack anything on the fly for an admin passcode, and the hacker could hack anything with 3-4 hours probing the target. *shrug* That and not having to count what programs I'm running all the time (I hate bookkeeping). Getting a rating 15 stealth is the main difference.

Mind you, my GM would never allow a PC a program over rating 6 without having some... serious... runs associated with it (I believe the quote was "Sure, you want a rating 7 blackhammer? I think Aztechnology's head research facility in Aztlan might have one...")

But, yes, I agree completely. Technos are karma sinks. Huge blackholes of karma sinks. Although the pysad in my group thinks that getting a new echo with every submersion is so unfair, when he has to initiate and buy a powerpoint. I personally wouldn't play an adept unless I was in a karma heavy campaign either. *shrug*

Maybe I'm missing something here, but I don't see why there is such a focus on whether a technomancer >= a hacker. Sure, they work in the same medium, the Matrix, but a face and a street sam work in the same medium, and nobody tries to say one should be like the other, or perform the same functions. Maybe there should be more effort put into thinking outside the hacker box. Admittedly I have not studied the technomancer in detail, but it seems to me that the technomancer should be as different from the hacker as the mage is from the street sam.

There have been some efforts in this thread to identify those aspects of the technomancer that make her unique. Most have garnered mini-flames. From one who doesn't know but would like to, is there a -consensus- on what makes a technomancer unique?

Peter

Yes but the Physad gets access to at least some of the Initiate powers and Street Magic adds a few for him.

You still have to buy your resonance point just like he has to buy his magic point.

And Adept Centering + Infusion can make Physads downright scary.

Unique: Sprites -- sentient creatures with Resonanced based abilities that cannot be replicated by agents (Castling, Traceroute, Info Sortilage, Cookie, Hash, etc). They also have the ability to use the Resonance as a shortcut into and out of systems (if they have a password or hack thru the firewall) that are otherwise isolated from the Matrix. They have a link to their technomancer that allows a technomancer to communicate with them at a distance without having to be on the same wireless grid. They can also be used to increase a CF for a short period of time.

Ability to have all their programs running at once with no response or system issues.

Ability to hack with no equipment.

Ability to thread up Complex Forms with-or-without options at anytime if they don't have it or to improve the rating of their existing CF beyond the normal program limit of 6.

CFs are always SOTA, are free, and never degrade, nor can they be affected by viruses or targeted by some Matrix attacks.

Multiple echos that allow technomancers to have unique abilities: skinlink, Mesh Reality, Resonance Trodes, Info Sortilege, E-sensing. These are all abilities that cannot be replicated by a hacker or agent.


These are all unique abilities. You may or may not consider them superior to what Hackers/Agents can do, or worth the cost to aquire them (in the case of echos), or even useful.... but they are unique.