This is going to be a stupid question, but I'm still trying to learn SR4's gun rules.

"high-velocity weapons can fire two long bursts in a single Action Phase." p26 of Arsenal

"Firing a long burst imposes a –5 dice pool modifier if it is the first burst fired that Action Phase, –6 if it is the second (recoil compensation neutralizes this modifier)" p143 BBB

If using an ingram supermach 100 which has 3 pts internal recoil + cyberarm gyromount for another 3 pts which of the following is the correct recoil?

long burst 1: 5 pts - 6 comp = 0 recoil
long burst 2: 5 pts + 6 pts - 6 comp = -5 recoil

or

long burst 1: 5 pts - 6 comp = 0 recoil
long burst 2: 6 pts - 6 comp = 0 recoil

For some reason, I thought that second shot recoil was cumulative with all previous recoil (even if the first burst was compensated completely), but the quote on 143 seems to imply that there's just a flat -6 modifier on the second long burst, regardless of whether the first was compensated or not.

Anyways, if one of you gun fu masters out there could provide insight, I'd appreciate it. Thanks.

Recoil is cumulative, so the first example is correct.

Aye.

It's phrased the way it is because it doesn't matter whether it's your second long burst, i.e. whether it follows after a long burst. Recoil is based on what type of shot you're firing and whether it's your first or second shot. So a long burst after a short burst or SA shot would still have a -6 recoil. Just like a short burst after a long burst would be -5 then -3. Or a SA shot after a long burst would be -5 then -1. Recoil is cumulative, but recoil also doesn't care how you combine fire modes, just whether you're shooting for the first or second time during your phase.

agreed with faster posters: the first example

Just to clarify to make sure there's no question of this. In your examples.

Long burst/short burst would be -5 then -3 (-8 total on second shot) or just -3?
Similary Long burst/SA would be -5 then -1 (-6 total on second shot) or just -1?

Sorry to beat this dead horse into a pulp, but even your wording of calling the second -3 and -1 respectively implies that it's a flat value, not a thing added to the first recoil, even though you say it's cumulative, so I just want to make absolutely sure.

I wonder what just happend.



Does this help?

the "annoying" thing is that unlike what would make "sense", the recoil that gets compensated for in one action carries over into the next action as if it was never compensated for in the first place. this is down right counter intuitive, but then i think its been that way in all version of SR...

That's kind of why I was hoping my initial reading of it as first shot is -2 (or -5 for long) and second is -3 (-6 for long) was correct. It made more sense to me that the previous shot only added a little bit more recoil (thus the extra -1 from the first shot) and recoil didn't carry over. But eh, when I'm able to get 11-12 recoil comp with an ares alpha, I guess it's all kind of moot. At least they brought back strength-based recoil in Arsenal, so there's another few points that can be squeezed out.

I don´t get it. Recoil gets fully compensated after your action (as little as 25% of a round), you just get to feel a small fraction of the recoil while you fire multiple bursts (ruleswise, every second burst gets a penalty).

The issue with the long burst here is that the original rules were written assuming you could only fire one long burst a pass.

Remember that recoil functions on -1 dice per bullet after the first.

So if your first simple action was to take a long burst, that was five bullets beyond your first, and so a -5 penalty applied.
If you took your first action to fire a short burst, that first free bullet was used up. Six more bullets in your long burst meant an additional -6 recoil.

(I believe the -1 DP / bullet is explained in the SR FAQ)

Basically, each point of RC you have lets you fire another bullet for 'free' in each pass.

Long burst then short burst = -5 on first shot, -3 on second shot. NOT NOT NOT -5 on first shot, -8 on second short.

I hope the three NOTs make it clear (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

The confusing part is that, when you're talking recoil comp, the recoil is cumulative during the same action phase. But that doesn't mean that the recoil modifiers are actually cumulative during that phase. Long burst then short burst is still -5 then -3. But when comparing it to your recoil comp, you add those up. That means if you had 6 recoil comp, your long burst would eat up 5 of that, leaving you with 1 recoil comp. On your short burst, you have 1 recoil comp left, so your short burst would be at -2. 6 recoil comp would NOT NOT NOT give you -0 on both shots. It would give you -0 then -2 in our long burst -> short burst example.

I think I see what's so confusing: when talking about fire modes, the book says that the second recoil mod is "additional," which makes it sound like it stacks. But if you look at the section on Recoil in general, it provides a much less misleading description of how the modifiers work out.

You got it! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

ok, now i think 3 interpretations here...

but the last one seems closest to the faq, so...

I don't know how I missed that part of the FAQ that tries to explain recoil more.

From FAQ:
a) The first bullet never counts.
b) Every bullet fired in an Action Phase after the first incurs a cumulative -1 recoil dice pool modifier.
c) Each point of recoil compensation counteracts 1 point of recoil modifier.

That's pretty explicit. Each bullet after the first adds a -1. Each point of recoil comp removes 1 from that modifier.

So with hypervelocities, you fire two long bursts. It's -5/-11. Not not not (sorry, had to do it) -5/-6 like it suggests.
With a normal, you do a long/short it is -5/-8 (example 2 in that FAQ is a short/long and so -2/-8 for same effect). So it definitely isn't -5/-3.

I really need to read through the FAQ more closely it seems like. I completely missed that huge section on recoil that would have answered my original question entirely. Now if only I could find some explicit 'official' answer on whether half-limb cyber replacements (forearms and lower legs) need to have stats matching the upper part of the meat for things like using a weapon or running and jumping.

Anyways, thanks for all your responses all. And for pointing out the FAQ part I missed, since I think it clears it up.

Yay! Congrats, you seem to be now in the enlightened circle that understands how recoil works. Maybe you even progressed far enough to understand why they have written it into the book the way they have. But that's not really important (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Because they like to cause endless confusion and suffering in true game designer style? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I greet you in the inner circle, Enlightened One. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)