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Kremlin KOA
post Feb 27 2008, 04:52 PM
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QUOTE (Nath @ Feb 28 2008, 12:45 AM) *
I failed my own knowledge skill test to remember where the sage spirit rules were.

SR4 street magic
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Dashifen
post Feb 27 2008, 09:39 PM
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I think he means the Guidance Spirit. Am I right, Kremlin?
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Kremlin KOA
post Feb 27 2008, 11:36 PM
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QUOTE (Dashifen @ Feb 28 2008, 06:39 AM) *
I think he means the Guidance Spirit. Am I right, Kremlin?

yeah, sorry
I just think sage spirit sounds so much cooler... same thing tho
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Dashifen
post Feb 27 2008, 11:44 PM
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It does sound cooler.
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Fortune
post Feb 28 2008, 12:24 AM
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QUOTE (Kremlin KOA @ Feb 28 2008, 10:36 AM) *
I just think sage spirit sounds so much cooler...

Spicier anyway. And really, it's all about flavor. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Jhaiisiin
post Feb 28 2008, 12:29 AM
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You should really learn to leaf the puns at the door.
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Kremlin KOA
post Feb 28 2008, 12:58 AM
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i think it is thyme to stop this line of, well not tasteless but bitter, jokes
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Nath
post Feb 28 2008, 01:13 AM
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I feel stupid. Now, were does Street Magic guidance spirits get knowledge skills ?
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Lyonheart
post Feb 28 2008, 01:29 AM
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QUOTE (Kremlin KOA @ Feb 27 2008, 06:33 AM) *
And here we differ. I look at the dragon stats as is to work out their physical power. They, in SR4, are statted out to be about individually as tough as a tank or T-Bird. You may disagree but I find that reasonable.
Not individually indestructable, but about as tough as the aforementioned.


Well we have to do some assumptions there, since the only "Tank" we have in SR4 is the Citymaster which has similar body and armor stats but without the weapon immunity....

You know what, hit it with a force 12 weapon focus, make it a spear, maybe call it a dragon lance, it should die...
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quentra
post Feb 29 2008, 01:20 PM
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Good times. And maybe make a party of adventuring runners take up arms and save the world. Wait....
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Eyeless Blond
post Feb 29 2008, 03:41 PM
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QUOTE (Nath @ Feb 27 2008, 05:13 PM) *
I feel stupid. Now, were does Street Magic guidance spirits get knowledge skills ?

Er, optional powers, isn't it? I think Task spirits get technical skills too.
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Ryu
post Feb 29 2008, 05:50 PM
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Yes, it is an optional power. As weapon skills are to guardian spirits, and technical skills to Task spirits.
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tisoz
post Feb 29 2008, 10:36 PM
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QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm @ Feb 26 2008, 10:44 AM) *
Fine, so I misremembered the timestamp. As for the not-quite-explicit talk of support (and the whole thing of why only Azzies fought back), YotC page 62, much is in Shadowtalk, but some is official known setting history. Also see Pipeline's input on page 63. Actually, if you would just bother to read "Ghostwalker 1, Denver 0" to the end of the Ghost Stories section you will find a lot indicating pre-planning of some sort, which either means that a) he could chat with someone from the metaplane; b) Dunkie expected this behavior and set up the groundwork; or c) something else, and while I knew I had a third possible option when I starting writing point b, I lost it entirely since then.

You are using a source I that is being debated as silly to justify the silliness? The entire point is that tha whole section is not believable - at least to me.

In any game I have been in or heard about, the actions and reactions make very little sense. If a shadowrunner team decided to use the exact same illusions GW used, astral mages and/or spirits would be drawn to it and learn it was false in moments. In short, the SR team would not get away with it, but we are supposed to let GW get away with it why?

SR team engaging multiple targets while flying a Great Dragon Illusion in every game I have been in or heard about draws in combatants, but somehow GW gets them to supposedly sit back and reason things through. Why the big difference? TGIF? Casual Tuesday? Why?

QUOTE
I thought I read something more explicit, but I will cite Shadows of NA page 78, comment by Firelight until I find what I remembered. Toss in the "terribly loyal to Ghostwalker" bit in Psyche's comment on 75, and the character definition that Ghostwalker is the most potent conjurer of all great dragons, and you start to see a trend, but I still think there was a more explicit statement.

I'll go back then to growing your own loyal free spirits for defense. Governments and corporations can afford to buy karma for these spirits and have had decades to do so. Each of them should really have a Force 1000+ away doing what it likes in another metaplane until it is called in to bitch slap some uppity critter, then its committment done freed with a polite thank you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

QUOTE (Synner @ Feb 26 2008, 01:53 PM) *
You do realize that flight took only a few seconds since it was Ghostwalker's astral form that came out of the Watergate rift.

Which makes all that planning even sillier.

QUOTE (Synner @ Feb 26 2008, 06:52 PM) *
What you seem to be missing the fact that the tactics I suggested for his first attack would have been the exact same tactics he could have used back in the Fourth Age if he wanted to terrorize a big Theran city. They're not particularly sophisticated or play off the weaknesses of any particular military technological advancement. They are simple misdirection and intelligent use of massive spirit support coupled with the fact that Ghostwalker will assume he is light-years of any magic or technology an individual metahuman magician can throw at him.

Ghostwalker's also got the intimidation factor going for him (Just suppose the Aztech pyramid had a full 10 trained security magicians on duty for some reason. GW commences his attack. The security chief sounds the alarm. He turns to his 10 security mages as plaster rains down and says, "Okay guys, there's a 120-foot great dragon out there that no one has ever seen attacking our pyramid. Preliminary intel from astral scouts suggest he has strong spirit support. Air and tactical support is on the way. A 20-man unit of Leopard Guards is gearing up downstairs. We're counting on the 10 of you to hold the line until everyone else gets here... in about 5 minutes. This is what you've trained for. Call up all your spirits and go out there kick some great dragon butt." And every single one of them craps his pants - the last time anyone fought a great dragon their city was leveled, now its up to you and your 9 buddies).

More sensible would be to make some phone calls around the world to other Aztechnology security forces demanding astral backup, or send watchers with the same message. A computer program could almost instantaneously make it a huge conference call. So in about 15 -30 seconds it isn't 10 security mages and their 40 spirits; it's 10,000 astral security mages and 40,000 spirits.

QUOTE
After that first encounter with 21st century attack helicopters and fighter jets, Ghostwalker revises his tactics and starts his hit and run campaign, using even more misdirection and striking soft targets from surprise. It's not even his power level at play (well aside from the fact that he requires no additional weapons).

After the first encounter, everyone is going to be a bit more vigilant and prepared with dragon powered weapons and means of detection.

QUOTE
In fact the military would have as much chance of stopping him as they have of stopping a domestic terrorist suicide bomber blows himself up in a shopping mall.

Unless either of them or ther tactics glowed in the dark, which what spells, spirits and dual natured beings do on the astral. See them with spirits, mages, adepts using deepweed, or be alerted to astral entities with plants and animals sensive to magic astral presences. (And you know some yahoo is going to have some FABIII rigged up to hit a dragon. They had FABIII in the 4th world, right?)

QUOTE (Synner @ Feb 26 2008, 07:30 PM) *
Disregarding for now the effectiveness of any such weapons and spells on a combat ready great dragon its good to know that in your world Azzie teocalis come equipped with rail guns and fiberoptic magevision systems - just in case.

Fiberoptic magevision - probably. If not, then the mage scope where they can cast spells without exposing themselves to LOS. In any game I have been a part of, Azzie facilities had as much fire power as they wanted. Usually, it was GM code for do not go there.

QUOTE (mfb @ Feb 26 2008, 08:19 PM) *
sue me, i missed one post in 15 pages.

Must have me on ignore, because I think one single person has even tried to counter my points. Especially the ones that are not facetious.

QUOTE (Kremlin KOA @ Feb 26 2008, 09:36 PM) *
Here is a mechanical analysis of the possible ways GW could do this, using only abilities mentioned in shadowrun sourcebooks.

Firstly premises and assumptions:
1: All discussed abilities are used, even those that have not yet been given stats
2: Great forms may be more skilled in areas than lesser dragons
3: Ghostwalker, aka Icewing, is the foremost Summoner amongst Great Dragons. As such his conjuring group skill is 9 (I see that as a low figure for the greatest immortal summoner in the world, but it will do)
4: For the purpose of this exercise GW will be without any useful foci for his prep research (either he has no foci, or his foci are not useful for this task)
5: Assuming here GW has no additional magic stat, but that he has sevral initiate grades and metamagics.

Note: Fuchs if you disagree with 3 then please instead assume a force 3 power focus for GW, not unreasonable for a Great dragon, or for any initiate magician.


COurse of events
a: GW goes and gets his body (he can sense where it is) this takes a few minutes.
b: GW Notices big ass settlement nearby.
c: GW summons a force 9 Sage spirit with the knowledge skill "That town near where GW left hsi body" (ok it is the 'Denver' skill but GW doesn't know that yet)
d: GW rolls his dice pool of 21 and scores 7 hits. the spirit rolls its 9 dice and scores 3 hits GW has 4 net hits. GW also has 26 dice for drain and thus gets an average of 8-9 hits. thus insuring that drain almost never happens
e: GW channels the spirit and uses a service to gain access to its knowledge skill. He muses for 5 minutes or so on his newfound knowledge and then commits it to a dragon memory crystal (standard, not the great crystal of memory)
f: GW then summons a Sage spirit with "Denver Politics" as a knowledge skill, at force 9 (this means the spirit has a skill value of 9 in that skill at skill 7 you are the political science equivalent of Hawking or Einstein)
g: GW muses for another 5-10 munites then commits this all to a memory crystal.
h: GW summons 2 more spirits, once again at force 9, one by one of course. The first has knowledge skills in CAS, UCAS and Aztlan. The second has skills in Ute, Pueblo and Sioux Nations.
i: More memory crystal goodness.
j: GW looks at the accumulated knowledge and decides Aztlan is too close to the Horrors and needs to be bitch slapped. But hsi previous skill 'downloads' have told him that tactics have changed.
k: GW summons another spirit, this time at force 12 (risking a box or 2 of stun drain, oh well) This one has skills in Urban warfare tactics, Mechanized infantry and Tank tactics, Air combat tactics and Combined arms tactics.
l: GW spends an hour or so looking at the map of denver in his memory crystal, cross referencing it with the data on the various sectors and needed targets. He identifies likely tarets and makes his rolls on the tactical skills. He gets an average of 8 successes per skill roll and plans accordingly.

Please try this using rules prior to SR4, which GW/YotC operated under.

Now, instead of conjuring and needing 5/6s for a success, he needs 9s, 6 or 8 of them to not take drain summoning F9 spirits. F12, be ready to start using Karma Pool for re-rolls, because on average it takes 288 dice to get those 8 12s. Even with a spirit focus and power focus (remember focus addiction rules), GW is going to be using up Karma Pool. It might seem limitless, buta dozen here, a dozen there. When someone does drop an anvil on him and he wants to burn a point to invoke his dragon will (a power that was invented after this scenario, btw) all it takes is one person using their KP to counter it, so he needs to use another, etc.. Outnumbered as he should be (by about 50,000), there is a lot of KP to counter this unique dragon HOG.

Prior edition spirits did not get knowledge skills, so all this GW consulting is a moot tactic.

To sum things up, try exchanging a group of runners pulling the same stunts GW is supposed to be pulling, and the likely reponses and consequences. Then apply even the great dragon level of power in carrying the tactics out. I can't see how they succeed within the limits of the rules.
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mfb
post Feb 29 2008, 11:36 PM
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QUOTE (tisoz)
Must have me on ignore, because I think one single person has even tried to counter my points. Especially the ones that are not facetious.

heh, to be perfectly frank, i kinda was mostly ignoring you in favor of... let's say more vociferous targets.

i don't agree with your assessment because i don't agree that GW was completely locked away from all contact while he was imprisoned wherever. he is being known for his facility with spirits, who was trapped on a metaplane--the metaplanes being, among other things, where many (maybe all) spirits come from--for, what, five thousand years? plenty of time to make a lot of friends.

then there's what he's capable of. he's capable of summoning powerful spirits, obviously, but he's also capable of a lot more. in the attack against the Rocky Mountain Arsenal, he brought in a flight of thunderbirds--he can control, or at least influence, paracritters. moreover, as much as he's dealt with spirits, it seems pretty likely that he's got a lot of True Names tucked away. who needs to take conjuring drain when you can just invoke a True Name for the big stuff?

QUOTE (tisoz)
When someone does drop an anvil on him and he wants to burn a point to invoke his dragon will (a power that was invented after this scenario, btw) all it takes is one person using their KP to counter it, so he needs to use another, etc.. Outnumbered as he should be (by about 50,000), there is a lot of KP to counter this unique dragon HOG.

assuming we limit him to the ridiculously low rate of karma accrual i mentioned earlier, GW would have a minimum karma pool of 250. at more reasonable rates, he'd have 500 or even a thousand--or more, depending on what exactly he did while he was trapped on that metaplane. not enough to counter 50,000 people dropping anvils on him, of course... but then, the idea of there being 50,000 people at any given location in Denver who are capable of dropping an anvil on someone as powerful as a GD is ridiculous to begin with.
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Herald of Verjig...
post Feb 29 2008, 11:49 PM
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QUOTE (tisoz @ Feb 29 2008, 05:36 PM) *
You are using a source I that is being debated as silly to justify the silliness? The entire point is that tha whole section is not believable - at least to me.
And we could've saved precious bits on the Dumpshock servers if in your first post you had clearly stated that you would only accept arguments from sources you had previously approved, and that you only approve of sources that do not contradict your opinions.
QUOTE
To sum things up, try exchanging a group of runners pulling the same stunts GW is supposed to be pulling, and the likely reponses and consequences. Then apply even the great dragon level of power in carrying the tactics out. I can't see how they succeed within the limits of the rules.
Runners do things like Ghostwalker did, and as long as there isn't a huge knowledge and force discrepency against them, it usually works. Often even against targets with a significant power advantage over the runners, but no 24/7 Runnercams™.
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tisoz
post Mar 1 2008, 12:46 AM
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QUOTE (mfb @ Feb 29 2008, 06:36 PM) *
heh, to be perfectly frank, i kinda was mostly ignoring you in favor of... let's say more vociferous targets.

Also, why I have pretty much held my posts. I know it is futile.

QUOTE
i don't agree with your assessment because i don't agree that GW was completely locked away from all contact while he was imprisoned wherever. he is being known for his facility with spirits, who was trapped on a metaplane--the metaplanes being, among other things, where many (maybe all) spirits come from--for, what, five thousand years? plenty of time to make a lot of friends.

Sorry, spirits come from several distinct metaplanes. Just check MitS for finding a free spirits true name; you have to go to the right metaplane. Fire elementals and water elementals have their own metaplanes. I think when you create an ally, you need to designate its metaplane. Recovering disrupted spirits, requires going to their metaplane.

QUOTE
then there's what he's capable of. he's capable of summoning powerful spirits, obviously, but he's also capable of a lot more. in the attack against the Rocky Mountain Arsenal, he brought in a flight of thunderbirds--he can control, or at least influence, paracritters. moreover, as much as he's dealt with spirits, it seems pretty likely that he's got a lot of True Names tucked away. who needs to take conjuring drain when you can just invoke a True Name for the big stuff?

And the 10,000 magicians are going to have chances to know free spirits, too. I would not be surprised if every megacorp did not have hundreds of bound free spirits toiling away enchanting radicals and orichalcum. The magicians in the corp control them. Major attack - they get called in.

And like I said, governments and megacorps are going to be lanning to counter dragon attacks. They have had decades to prepare since the first one. They have the resources to buy karma to feed the free spirit, and/or order their "subjects" to make donations, and/or to go to impoverished countries and get really good deals buying karma. They all will have no problem having control of a F1000+ free spirit, and that bad boy is going to punk any GD. (Using your explanation that karma can be earned on the metaplanes, they could even speed up the process by finding metaplanes where the treasure from afree spirit's wealth power can be traded to the locals for karma.)

QUOTE
assuming we limit him to the ridiculously low rate of karma accrual i mentioned earlier, GW would have a minimum karma pool of 250. at more reasonable rates, he'd have 500 or even a thousand--or more, depending on what exactly he did while he was trapped on that metaplane. not enough to counter 50,000 people dropping anvils on him, of course... but then, the idea of there being 50,000 people at any given location in Denver who are capable of dropping an anvil on someone as powerful as a GD is ridiculous to begin with.

I think his Karma pool could be in the 1000s, it doesn't matter. Only one person has to get in that anvil hit, then everyone else keeps alotting a point of karma to counter each of GWs. GW can't use his spirits karma for this, and I think he would run out before all the opposition empties their entire KP. Using the free spirit Nuke theory, free spirits can buy KP with their karma, which the big boys can buy. Example - 10,000KP costs the free spirit 10 points each for 100,000 karma. Using the most universal stated amount for buying karma, that is 500,000,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) . A lot, but look at defense budgets. This is also not considering finding cheaper sources of karma, such as starving people willing to sell karma for 50lbs of rice. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm @ Feb 29 2008, 06:49 PM) *
And we could've saved precious bits on the Dumpshock servers if in your first post you had clearly stated that you would only accept arguments from sources you had previously approved, and that you only approve of sources that do not contradict your opinions.

Wow, profound! We could've saved more everything by just saying YotC says so. I thought the point was we disagreed with the story as printed in YotC. But you want to cite said story as proof why we are wrong. I did not clearly state I disapproved of the source because I thought it was obvious that text was being disputed.

Do not suggest I am just censoring sources because they do not support my position and try to infer that I'm a flake.

QUOTE
Runners do things like Ghostwalker did, and as long as there isn't a huge knowledge and force discrepency against them, it usually works. Often even against targets with a significant power advantage over the runners, but no 24/7 Runnercams™.

Riiiight. Is anyone even going to believe an illusion of an unknown dragon? Isn't seeing a real honest to ghost dragon something hardly anyone ever gets to see? Wouldn't that just by itself (not counting it is a new dragon that might just choose you to be its buddy - see other dragons and human references upon awakening) draw quite a crowd? If it keeps making appearances over 3 weeks, wouldn't Denver be a circus of dragon watchers?

Each place he attacked the first day invokes multiple security forces with magical assets in the thousands. They know it was real and what attacked. All the illusions that didn't resist it think they are under attack and that invokes more multiple security forces, with magical assets in the thousands. When the guys that can say it was an illusion get around to doing so, confirmation has come in about verified real attacks elsewhere, so they are going to be searching.

It just invokes such a massive hunt, I do not see how it can be evaded, especially within the rules.
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Herald of Verjig...
post Mar 1 2008, 02:46 AM
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QUOTE (tisoz @ Feb 29 2008, 07:46 PM) *
Do not suggest I am just censoring sources because they do not support my position and try to infer that I'm a flake.
You say it is silly, and then when an argument is made that there is more at stake than the straw-dragon you have created, you demand a source. When the source is in the book you have declared silly, you reject it rather than read and even consider whether the authors did use even a speck of the tactical sense you have declared they did not use at all.

Edit: This flakey personal attack removed since it just seemed pathetic.
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Jhaiisiin
post Mar 1 2008, 05:04 AM
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QUOTE (tisoz)
And like I said, governments and megacorps are going to be lanning to counter dragon attacks.

Governments and megacorps are not going to spend countless amounts of time, manpower and money to adequately research, develop and TEST a plan for a scenario that has such a low probability of occurrence, let alone success. The truth of the matter is that dragons attack without provocation almost never. Ghostwalker, unless I miss my mark, was really the first, solid example we have of such a thing in the modern world.

Beyond that, is the testing portion of that plan. Unless they have a dragon on standby that is willing to take one for the team as a test dummy, their plan will be nothing more than theory. My wager is that they never, ever planned for a Great Dragon to be able to bring in the sheer amount of force (via spells, spirits and paracritters) that Ghostwalker did. He hit harder than anyone likely thought possible. After getting pounded by lots of 21st century tech, he beat feet, and came back later popping very specific, lightly defended targets before getting out of dodge again.

One thing that's caught my eye in this thread is Fuchs and others talking about GW getting waxed on the battlefield with his tactics. I'd agree. Problem there is he didn't attack a battlefield, or even a properly defended fortress. He attacked moderately (if at all) armed and armored locations. The Azzie pyramid was the hardest target he faced off against, and he booked it once he realized he didn't do what he came for, and he was facing larger opposition than he could handle at the time. It wasn't a battlefield. It was a downtown urban environment NOT SUITED to full scale battles and wars.
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mfb
post Mar 1 2008, 05:50 AM
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QUOTE (tisoz)
Sorry, spirits come from several distinct metaplanes. Just check MitS for finding a free spirits true name; you have to go to the right metaplane. Fire elementals and water elementals have their own metaplanes. I think when you create an ally, you need to designate its metaplane. Recovering disrupted spirits, requires going to their metaplane.

i'm not sure what the fact that individual spirits come from different metaplanes has to do with the fact that GW was on a metaplane. i'm just saying, if your special skill is manipulating Chinese people, and someone puts you in a prison in China for five thousand years, chances are you're going to come out with more friends than you had going in.

QUOTE (tisoz)
They all will have no problem having control of a F1000+ free spirit, and that bad boy is going to punk any GD. (Using your explanation that karma can be earned on the metaplanes, they could even speed up the process by finding metaplanes where the treasure from afree spirit's wealth power can be traded to the locals for karma.)

any trick a megacorp could pull with spirits, GW will have had tens of thousands of years to discover first and perfect. if it's a numbers game, GW has more numbers because he's had a hell of a lot more time, and started out with a much higher level of expertise.

QUOTE (tisoz)
Only one person has to get in that anvil hit, then everyone else keeps alotting a point of karma to counter each of GWs.

that's... not how Twist Fate works. DotSW, page 179. there's nothing in there about what you're describing.

QUOTE (tisoz)
It just invokes such a massive hunt, I do not see how it can be evaded, especially within the rules.

nothing says he stayed in Denver in between attacks; a dragon with a high-force movement power being used on him can move pretty far pretty fast. as well, nothing says that he stayed in draconic form the whole time. all he has to do is duck out of sight and shapeshift; his masking will be high enough that no searchers will be able to figure out who he is. if he's being pursued too strongly to duck out of sight, shapeshift into the form of a mouse (if his magic is strong enough to go from a bod 25+ dragon to a bod 3 human, he can certainly eke out the 2 extra successes he'd need to turn into a bod 1 rodent), drop through a sewer grate, and then shapeshift into a frog or something. poof, gone.

it's also worth pointing out that nobody officially had any military hardware in or around Denver. the forces they were allowed to maintain were, basically, heavy security. of course, all the players had military hardware secreted around, but nobody wanted to pull theirs out until everyone else had. and when they did, they certainly didn't work together--Aztlan and CAS forces, for instance, would have spent as much time eyeing each other as hunting GW.
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mfb
post Mar 1 2008, 06:57 PM
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woo, double post! i missed this one:
QUOTE (tisoz)
More sensible would be to make some phone calls around the world to other Aztechnology security forces demanding astral backup, or send watchers with the same message. A computer program could almost instantaneously make it a huge conference call. So in about 15 -30 seconds it isn't 10 security mages and their 40 spirits; it's 10,000 astral security mages and 40,000 spirits.

only if you don't take into account where the action is taking place. 10k astral security mages and 40k spirits suddenly crowding Denver's astral space--i can't think of any way that the other sectors wouldn't view that as a military invasion. Aztlan didn't want a war over Denver; even when they got kicked out, they chose to cut their losses and retreat, rather than fight for it. and that's ignoring the vanishingly low probability that AZT would be willing to leave a gigantic chunk of their facilities unguarded in the first place. i mean, seriously, you could drive a cruise ship through that big a hole in AZT's global strategy. convince one location (via Matrix infiltration, if nothing else) that it's under attack by a GD, and suddenly a large number of other AZT facilities lose their awakened defenders.
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Eyeless Blond
post Mar 2 2008, 02:10 AM
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QUOTE (Jhaiisiin @ Feb 29 2008, 09:04 PM) *
Governments and megacorps are not going to spend countless amounts of time, manpower and money to adequately research, develop and TEST a plan for a scenario that has such a low probability of occurrence, let alone success. The truth of the matter is that dragons attack without provocation almost never. Ghostwalker, unless I miss my mark, was really the first, solid example we have of such a thing in the modern world.
He wasn't, but even if he was... well how many trillions of dollars have been spent on nuclear weapons and countermeasures? So far they've been used exactly once in all of human history. GW was far from the first high-power magical assault in the Sixth World, nor was he the first army-from-nowhere or even the first Great to attack a city essentially unprovoked. So there has no doubt been a whole lot of research, and I dare say testing, poured into dealing with large-scale magical threats, and even GDs in particular.

This doesn't invalidate the fact that such things would probably not have been employed in Denver, just like no one would have ever tried to build, much less use, a nuclear silo in Cold War era Berlin. What we had there was essentially a Cuban Missile Crisis-type situation, though the parallels are somewhat inexact.

Seriously, re-read the section, starting p. 59 YotC. Reading between the lines, we seem to have:

1) GW really doesn't seem to be after destroying the physical assets of the places he's been after. In fact he'd been consistently attacking a target until he could pull some sort of evil spirit out of the building--a blood spirit out of the Aztech teocalli, for instance, and one who looked "deep black with pinpoints of light within its form, and it just oozed coldness and inhumanity," out of a building in the UCAS section, where oddly enough Unity** made its home. He kills the spirit, rips it to shreds by most accounts, and then skedaddles, usually taking fire from missiles and lasers and looking pretty beat up by the end.

2) The places GW was attacking don't line up with a simple terrorist campaign. Sure, some were high-profile, but others weren't. What they do line up with, at least the ones that were outright named, are either places which house high-force blood/toxic/otherwise nasty spirits or have high background count and would have such spirits arise on their own. In other words, it looks like GW was on a campaign against magical threats, not millitaries; it just so happened that, especially in blood-spirit infested Azzie-town, those two were the same areas.

3) There is return fire, but noone seems to want to commit too much to GW's destruction, for fear of over-extending themselves in the treaty zone. UCAS and the NAN in particular go so far as to order their forces not to engage GW at all, and let him go on his spirit-hunting campaign unmolested. The only ones who seem really adamant about going after him are the ignorant--PCC and Ute--and the people who are actively seeking to use blood spirits and other nasty magical things.

**BTW, what the heck is Unity? That section describes it as some sort of Humanis-like org based in the CAS; any details on what it is and what's behind it?
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the_dunner
post Mar 2 2008, 02:19 AM
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QUOTE (Eyeless Blond @ Mar 1 2008, 09:10 PM) *
The places GW was attacking don't line up with a simple terrorist campaign. Sure, some were high-profile, but others weren't. What they do line up with, at least the ones that were outright named, are either places which house high-force blood/toxic/otherwise nasty spirits or have high background count and would have such spirits arise on their own. In other words, it looks like GW was on a campaign against magical threats, not millitaries; it just so happened that, especially in blood-spirit infested Azzie-town, those two were the same areas.

They weren't. Re-read the Denver Boxed set materials. Ghostwalker was, almost certainly, releasing the components of Zebulon, the Spirit of Denver, so that it could reassemble.
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Eyeless Blond
post Mar 2 2008, 02:52 AM
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Eh? What is this whole spirit of Denver about, anyway? The Denver boxed set was, um, before my time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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swirler
post Mar 2 2008, 03:25 AM
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QUOTE (Eyeless Blond @ Mar 1 2008, 08:52 PM) *
Eh? What is this whole spirit of Denver about, anyway? The Denver boxed set was, um, before my time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

kinda like the 'Spirit of St. Louis' Except for the 'being an airplane' part
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Herald of Verjig...
post Mar 2 2008, 03:36 AM
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In days long before 2060, Denver had a really high force spirit that would occasionally show up at parties. At some time, two mages had discovered the true name of this spirit and tried conjuring it to bind it to their wills at effectively the same time. This lead to there being two high force spirits neither of whom responded to the true name they both knew, so the two mages were shredded. Since then, as Denver splintered, the spirit splintered as well. From there, it gets confusing as there are lots of still significant free spirit bits floating around and joining with all sorts of factions and groups in the city.
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