What role has Ghostwalker actually played in the SR-world? Yeah, sure, he somehow kicked out Aztlan from the special weird-regulated city of Denver (rather unconvincingly, but that's another matter), but what does he do else? He just seems to be there. Dunkelzahn had that media-stick to him, Lofwyr is owner of the biggest and mightiest mega-corp, Ryumyo and Lung have their feud, Masaru wants to help the filipinos in their guerrilla war against the oppressive forces of Imperial Japan, but Ghostwalker? He just sticks himself to Denver, and that's it, according to Dot6w. Heck, what ressources does he even have? Only what Denver can provide, and it's stated that he leaves the mega-corp alone when they won't interfere with him. What can he offer what the mega-corps would even want to make deals with him?

He seems so useless in every way. His only schtick was to be all godzilla-like, but that's it. I mean, being king of Denver, yeah, so what? Why is he made important, when everything he "rules" over is just the odd city of Denver?

Can anybody justify his importance, and why people talk about him at all?

He's a dragon, so he's cool and makes Denver cooler. Or so I imagine people writing his entries in the sourcebook think.

You know, when I brought that up in an author discussion, the author of Ghost Stories got super pissed at me. She said things about me which were apparently "not nice" and wouldn't work with me on any projects in the future.

Ghostwalker is supposed to be a big conjurer, and his Godzilla attack did invalidate the Treaty of Denver, which was the pact that the North American states made to not nuke each other with magic or nuclear weapons, so you'd think that Aztlan would be contractually obligated to magically assassinate leaders of the CAS and drop nukes on Richmond. But that didn't happen, so really Ghostwalker just lives in the Denver Bubble - a place where giant NPCs wag their penises around and there are no consequences or reprisals for anything that happens there.

Whatever happens in Denver, stays in Denver. And if your campaign was set in Denver based on the old box set, then you can kiss an entire ass.

-Frank

Yeah, that'll happen sometimes, Frank. And your assessment is pretty much spot on.

To quote Mystery Men:
"He's terribly mysterious."

But in all seriousness, it seems like they might have had some plans for him that just never happened.
Maybe that's assuming too much about one of SR's biggest loose ends.

-paws

the role i think GW ought to serve is that of the old-school feudal dragon who lives in a castle and owns your shit. some might say that Lofwyr fills that role, but i would argue that Lofwyr is more representative of dragonkind adapting that attitude to the Sixth World--Lofwyr doesn't bother to own places; instead, he owns money. GW could serve as a counterpoint, showing that owning places can actually be pretty important and powerful.

the role GW actually serves is, basically, zomgz dragonz lol. i think GW's takeover of Denver could have been made to work a lot better if, for instance, they'd gone a bit more in-depth on the subject of his tactics and strategy. there are many people who would like to see GW fill the role of "welcome to the Sixth World, bitch", but that toxic dragon who got shot down in Germany serves pretty well there.

I though he was preparing a massive blood magic ritual that will kill everyone in Denver but allow him to lay down some major destruction on one of the more dangerous meta-planes. (The Hive)

Thats what I would do if I was a Dragon, what else would I need a city for?

I would say that there is no place for an old school feudal dragon, not in the 6th world.

Sure there is. There are lots of areas which are just really dangerous. A powerful magician could carve out a region and allow people to live in it at their whim in exchange for their fealty.

This area would just have to be in the Australian Outback, or the Amazon, or somewhere else that the Awakening has left essentially uninhabitable. Somewhere where the presence or absence of a single Grade 6+ Initiate could make the difference between metahumans being able to live there or not. Somewhere that had something valuable enough that people would go live there if the wilderness were tamed sufficiently to allow them to do so.

---

It just doesn't make any sense anywhere that already has half a million people under the protection of five different industrial and nuclear capable nations.

-Frank

I'm sure if Aztlan wanted to fight a three front war which would eventually drag the entire Western world into annilation, they could have. However, with a spilt board on Aztechnology and spilt magical hierarchy in Aztlan, they turned to a tac computer, which naturally deduced that they could make more money by forcing reparations and turning the attack into a political victory at home.

Ghostwalker is the leader of the New Revolution, his purpose is to reunite all the North states into one nation, which the easiest way was to begin a war where Aztlan forces the North to form a union in order to beat them, but that didn't work, so no he agitates NAN states and generally pretends to run the Make-a-Wish-Maybe-Get-BBQ'd foundation. In addition to being a mascot to several religions and sport franchises, Ghostwalker enjoys long glides under the moon, and romantic city stomping dinners. On weekends, he likes to kick back at home and catch the game.

Ghostwalker is right now a placeholder dragon. He got to help take down AzTech a bit, but his role is not well defined so far.

Honestly, I kind of got the impression that there were plans made for him, but, when FASA closed, the person with those plans took their notes and ran.

Seriously, Ghostwalker made a BIG appearance and then...fizzled. Then again, there are so many loose ends and un-answered questions, which TPTB said they would not be putting any effort into tying up or answering, that...it makes me sad.

It is also entirely possible that the people who bought the rights to ED told Fanpro, then Catalyst, not to do what they were planning, because it would have impinged on the IP rights of ED.

i'm not sure that would be a concern. as i understand it, ED characters and concepts are considered to be a separate IP from SR characters and concepts--the two game worlds are no longer strictly bound together. an ED book could come out tomorrow in which every single dragon died, and it wouldn't affect SR.

All he had to do to make it work was to not show up to the peace summit. As I recall, Aztlan was just about to attack Denver, even if it meant rolling tanks through Pueblo to do it, before that happened.

And all the better if he ate Daviar when she came and asked, just to show the UCAS he wasn't messing around.



They may not be tied, but the more important thing is that the owners of the licenses for both games are the same people. Their licensees are just different. So Red Brick or Living Room or whoever has been licensed to publish ED now probably doesn't have the authority to tell Catalyst what do do with Rob's pocket lint.

Well, he originally intended the summit as more of a brunch, but gliched his Willpower and filled up on news reporters beforehand.

(Besides, the spirit Aztlan had in Denver was a violation of the Treaty; the thing was clearly military grade force.)

What's Icewing up to? Well, lets hypothesize from what info we have.
1) He claims to have pre-existing ownership of the Denver area.
2) The whole "Spirit of Denver" situation has resulted in dozens of spirits of varrying degrees of power that were originally one very strong spirit
3) Ghostwalker spend the downcycle astrally projected, and spent a lot of time with spirits otherwise
4) Probably related to 3, but even bound spirits can ignore orders from mortal conjurers to go follow Ghosty's whims

So, Ghostwalker sets up a guardian spirit of significant force to guard his lair, then goes away. Much later, that spirit gains recognition and popularity as the guardian spirit of a city (and its nature has changed somewhat by that point). Due to a series of strange events, there are now many spirits of differing power, motive, and apparent type that all originated as one big spirit. Even if the dragon isn't trying to reunite his old guard ghost, the whole prospect of dividing (and possibly reuniting) spirits is a subject worthy of significant research. Toss in that Icewing knows old magic by which souls of mortals and even dragons can be treated similar to the spirits your PCs can conjure.

So, big conspiracy speculation: he wants to undo Ristul.

Ghostwalker is preparing his minions. He is getting ready to take them down to Austin and kick all the azzie ass right out of the "Lonestar State". His minions will be powerful and they will be legion. They will rally behind him, and many more will follow suit once they find out the truth. The truth that he had walked among them all along, even in the Fifth world, a legend among men. He was and always will be Ghostwalker... Texas Ranger!

Denver was too awesome a setting to be allowed to exist. Ghostwalker was the tool by which it was made just another humdrum city. Since this was obviously necessary, he serves a very important role, though in principle an established NPC could have done it.

~J

And what does that Ristul-thing have anything to do with Shadowrun? He's still only sitting there in Denver, and effectively doing nothing worthwile. The megacorps and the nations there gain nothing from him, and he doesn't contribute at all to anybody. He can't make any business with the corps, because he has nothing of value to give out, and they won't sell him anything of importance, because he can't give them anything that is usefull to them. He won't and can't sell any dragon secrets to the metahumans, nor any body parts, talons, clippings, scales, snots, poopoo or something similarily gross but at least useful for magical things like that, because that would make him vulnerable and weaken his position. He's just there, a sore plot thread, doing nothing besides looking grim and stuff.

Denver is totally dependent on the benevolence of the megacorps and the nations supporting it, meanwhile, Ghostwalker just sits there and is playing the arrogant king of Denver. He has no political nor any economical power. He just lurks over the strange city of Denver.

What does that Great Dragon contribute to the game setting of Shadowrun for anybody? What use is he for the game masters, the players, or the player characters when they enter Denver?

Right now, he's nothing more than the Denver-Godzilla.

well it could be something the designers left open to players, kind of an open ended metaplot device? He could be making deals we dont know about.

Thanks frank, this made me

As for Ghostwalker, the first time I heard about him, I was like "Oh cool, did Dunkelzahn die, go on a wild adventure through the metaplanes, and pop back out through the astral rift, reborn?" Cuz maybe that would have been cool.

But here's what I find out: Ghostwalker is, FOR NO REASON, Dunkelzahn's brother. And then he seized control of Denver because he wanted to. The only person who could appropriately express the way this makes me feel is Lewis Black.

Dunky reborn? Cool. Some other dragon? Fine. Dunkelzahn's brother??? WTF.

Yes, and what could he be good for at all for the players? Other Great Dragons are involved politically or economically in international schemes, either battling for dragon leylines, trying to unite a nation, controlling the ressources of the world, seeking to adapt modern technology to dragon physiology, fighting a guerrilla war...

Meanwhile, there is Ghostwalker, and he flies his rounds over Denver and growls menacingly.

Yeah, I mean in a world ruled by the media, what power could a figurehead have to totally distract the public and act as a scapecoat for problems? cough*Evita*cough I mean, why do we talk about Urban Brawl ever, it doesn't do anything for the megacorps, or the NAN, they've got nothing, except PPC and they lost it all the Horizon, seriously, why did you make a thread about something you don't care about? Why did we bother speculating when we knew you'd just use it as a platform to whine?

Lolerskates and roflcopters, people are discussing something,



Surprise!

It's a discussion forum!

Why the assumption that the only resources he has are Denver? He had to of had his physical body stashed somewhere which suggests the chance of a possible hoard, and remember, IIRC Lofwyr used a lot of the precious metals and gemstones in his hoard to help finance his initial purchases of what would turn into Saedar-Krupp so we're talking about possibly a fairly large amount of cash. And just because it's not explicitly stated in any of the books doesn't mean he wont have a hidden claw in the corporate world. Maybe not to the extent of Lofwyr but more along the lines of Rhonabwy owning say four or five of percent of different corps here and there.

Isn't discussion give and take, not just reiterate?

I don't have a problem with people saying "I don't like this; what can we do with it?" And then, maybe adding their ideas about fixes and changes. But just to repeat yourself constantly, without even discussing the actual merits of something? I must be missing the benefits of this type of "discussion", neh?

I guess Ghostwalker was part of Shadowrun 3rds higher level plot. He mostly seems to be an opponent for the other Great Dragons and a catalyst in certain conflicts. The thing he gave to get Denver was giving the nations a chance to dump Aztechnology (when they had other crap on) without starting a war.

Having run a long campaign in Denver he hardly ruined it, he just made it more challenging to work there as the security forces became much more co-ordinated.

As to what he's up to. Well he's a powerful being with a long list of enemies. If only there was someone in each group who's job was to come up with stories, oh wait a mo. List of enemies, no listed canon agenda. Take it and run with it. Could the games writers do more? Yes, but its nice to have something big to use as we will.

7-8 posts are not a discussion? Wow, you must be on an higher discussing plane than me.

Then again, you posted in a thread simply to say that you think it isn't a discussion.

If I where a Great Dragon I'd take over a city to force it's populous to worship me as a God, and I'd likely due it on a lark because wedsdays are kinda slow.

@Kanada Ten: Well, if you feel this thread isn't for you, feel free to ignore it. I am wondering what purpose Ghostwalker serves for anybody who plays Shadowrun. If others have knowledge towards that, I am glad to read about it.

What purpose does Aden serve? Feuerschwinge? Rhonabwy? The Sea Dragon?

Saying he has no purpose is the wrong approach. His purpose is to be an element that you can use in your games. No, the problem with him is not that he lacks a purpose, the problem is that he lacks a clear purpose and destroyed the Denver setting.

~J

I doubt it.

Ghostwalker is the only approachable dragon, he's quick and easy to get characters working for, and more so, he works at the street level, under the corp radar and in the NAN, where low powered characters and campaigns work best, and with Denver as a major smuggling hub between those nations, it puts characters in a great position to be agents of a dragon who needs agents, because he has none, has low resources, and is stuck in the middle of nowhere.

He's also the easiest dragon to take out, because of his accessibility, and then once dead, replaced by a corp figurehead.

All the dragons in Dot6W were meant to suit a campaign style, and Ghostwalker makes sense as the low power Great, while still having the shades of political intrigue and let characters interact with areas of the setting they wouldn't normally.

I think this would go a lot better without the utterly and completely unnecessary sniping.

Destroyed? Changed the Denver setting maybe but isn't that a little melodramatic? Granted I'm going from memory since I haven't played in a game set in Denver in years but whilst some major things were changed wasn't the basic setting kept generally the same, or have I really missed something?

He, she or whatever gender that beast has seems to be opposed to Lofwyr and anti-awakened groups, and tries to be subtle in his approach, after the burning down of Teheran. Who's that? Appearently, they play political games in former Irland, now known as Tir na Nog, and aid elven secessionists.
That too, I guess.
Doubt what?He stomped Denver all by himself Godzilla-style. Everybody is watching him now. It's impossible to work street level and under the corp radar for him, as he is the infamous big badass of Denver. He's not subtle. Every move of him and his agents are tracked by the agents of the remaining corps and national agencies. And yes, he has low ressources, so it's even more impossible for him to do anything worthwile. He's too high-risk, and can't pay enough. And he still has a bad attitude.
Well, that would be nice if the game developers would take that route, but that's for another topic.
That's the problem. He has too few ressources and influence, is permanently under watch by all sides, can't do anything without upsetting the other established forces, and now sits upon Denver.

Since you've mentioned this again I'll reiterate the question, but what makes you think he has 'low resources', and low compared to who?

I doubt it.

I always had this crazy idea that Ghostwalker was running the Shedim. Then again, I have no idea where that idea came from, so it's probably wrong.

Probably from the fact that they followed him back through the rift.

Another thing to remember about Pale'n'Scaly, apart from his unrivaled ability with Spirits, is his use as a sage. His listed price is a gem (IIRC) of certain worth (10000 ?).

well, Ghostwalker isn't Dunk's brother just because--he's Dunk's brother because he was Dunk's brother in the Earthdawn setting. why use GW instead of some unknown great? well, ED has all this cool background; it'd be a shame not to use it. why use GW instead of some other ED great whose SR whereabouts are unknown? eh, no real reason--but no real reason not to, either.

i really think that the most awesome theory i've seen posted so far is that GW is running the New Revolution. especially when you look at the possible threads tying Dunk to the NR (don't ask me what they are, it's been literally years since i looked into it).

noones even bothered to groan at my bad joke or my lame photoshop

Ghostwalker's purpose is to have sex with your mom. Anal sex.

But, obviously, Dunkie and GW are running an absurdly elaborate Xanatos Roulette that will take a couple thousand years to play itself out to fruition.

Feuerschwinge is a German dragon that was taken out by a small military division. Though it is uncertain if he was already hurt and they simply put the killing blow in, or if he was going toxic since he seems to have been in the SOX area. It is also unsure if he is truly dead, since there are since there are still sightings. Also there are mutant/toxic clans that worship him as a diety of destruction.

mmm From what I've read I always saw Icewind as pretty much, running denver becouse he wanted too, as well pretty much does other things. becouse he wants to. he's one of the oldest greatdragons being dukies brother I belvie he. I forget the term? loremaster? or something liek that. which was formly his brothers title among their kind. so int he realm of dragons, with his magical power, his physcal power as a single being, and his title. Simply existing makes him important. at least to dragons. kinda like those old guys in some of the old mafia movies. you know you don't know who they are. or what they do, they just seem to sit their. But when they feel like talking they only say a few things fairly low and every one in the room listens very very carfuly

but thats just me.

this is shadowrun, where trolls sniping with panthers and bows backed up by giant slivergun shaped ally spirits are king.

There's an entire line of posts and comments like this, and it's just easier to reply once and say that you shouldn't be saying that. Because if it was remotely true, he wouldn't have been covered in Dragons of the Sixth World and Denver wouldn't have been in SoNA. And in fact neither of those books made such outrageous BS claims like "Everything you KNEW has CHANGED!" Because as FlakJacket has said twice now, it didn't.

And I would suspect that the second set of Missions wouldn't be set there if it was impossible to run in. Denver was not "stomped" on Godzilla-like. It was attacked on a limited and rather strategic basis. And I say this knowing that if they wanted they could have had him destroy it as Aden destroyed Tehran. Especially since I recall Icewing being second most powerful only to his brother. Maybe we should wander over to that SR Missions forum and ask how unplayable Denver has been for the people actually playing games set in Denver. Nah... That might actually be useful and rational and knock down some of the rather amazing and unexplained hatred people have for Ghostwalker. That's discussion, btw. A lot of this is just whining and griping.

friendly suggestion, ignore the troll. he seems to have a issue with SR4 that i cant quite nail down, but i suspect it had something with feeling ignored while working for them...

I am so sick of the "anything important has to have a dragon behind it, since dragons are cool" trope.

Whining? Irrational? I want to play in a world ruled by megacorps, not relics from D&D. Give me Dragons who are powerful because they are of superhuman intelligence, and not because in old times they could rend a knight. Newsflash, Devs - we're not in D&D or ED anymore, we have weapons that will kill a dragon easily, so stop treating the game as D&D with computers.

Lowfyr and Dunkelzahn are Dragons I like because they play(ed) by the new rules, using money and PR, not claw and spell, to get their goals.

But as long as the devs think that Dragons should be not only superhuman intellects, and able to personally kill a runner team without much trouble in combat, but also able to destroy entire cities by themselves with brute force, that's a pipe dream.

There's an entire line of posts and comments like this, and it's just easier to reply once and say that you shouldn't be saying that. Because if it was remotely true, he wouldn't have been covered in Dragons of the Sixth World and Denver wouldn't have been in SoNA. And in fact neither of those books made such outrageous BS claims like "Everything you KNEW has CHANGED!" Because as FlakJacket has said twice now, it didn't.

And I would suspect that the second set of Missions wouldn't be set there if it was impossible to run in. Denver was not "stomped" on Godzilla-like. It was attacked on a limited and rather strategic basis. And I say this knowing that if they wanted they could have had him destroy it as Aden destroyed Tehran. Especially since I recall Icewing being second most powerful only to his brother. Maybe we should wander over to that SR Missions forum and ask how unplayable Denver has been for the people actually playing games set in Denver. Nah... That might actually be useful and rational and knock down some of the rather amazing and unexplained hatred people have for Ghostwalker. That's discussion, btw. A lot of this is just whining and griping.

ok, i have seen multiple posts, but this is silly...